Should there be actions taken to improve or even control immodest dress at mass?

[Kolbelover]

Greetings, Friends in Christ

we seem to have two discussions going on herein: One on “dressing up” for Mass and another on immodesty (which is actually the topic of this thread!).

I have already shared some thoughts on the importance of modesty… again, i ask for your forgiveness if anything I have written is judgemental, uncharitable or just plain wrong.

as to the issue of “dressing up”: In my morning prayer today, I was shown the image of a recently deceased member of my parish. A warm, loving and holy man who gave so much to our community during the last decade or so of his life:

He came to us quite inauspiciously. He was quiet and sat alone. Candidly, he was easy to over look… he was quite bedraggled looking… long, walrus-evoking mustache… baggy jeans…sneakers…flannel shirt…perhaps a corduroy jacket in the fall…baseball cap…In fact, some thought he might be a homeless person.Over time, he was befriended by a small group of ladies who like him, attended daily Mass. It was those loving, charitable women who discovered that this humble man was a retired doctor of theology!

Our pastor came to know him as well…and he was invited to lecture in a series of theological studies…something he did with great joy and passion for the next 10 years up until his death. In addition, he served as a Reader and an Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion… quiet simply, this man who had no immediate family (he never married) or relatives nearby, found a place where he was welcome, loved and needed…

Every now and then, someone who did not know him might comment on his frumpy appearance. Indeed, I was asked by someone why we had a “bum” reading for the Triduum (I am on staff). He wore what he wore because that is what he had… and while he might have had the means to update his wardrobe a bit, such superficial things were just not important to him… He simply was operating on “another plane” from the rest of us…and we dearly loved him for it. No one showed more reverence for Jesus Truly Present in the Eucharist than he did…not by what he wore, but how he treated his fellows

RIP Doctor Bob…

 

[Schluns]

This comes up every couple months.

I’ll say what I always say: nothing the priest can do from the pulpit will do any good, and may well do much harm.

The locals will either assume he isn’t talking about them, or will take offense and go to the parish accross town that’s ‘less hung up on appearances’, and the visitors will feel bad, but will have moved on by next week anyway.

This is an instance where we must lead by example: if a significant number of people wear business dress, the cut offs and tank top crowd will feel under dressed and raise their own standards.

Like it or not, modesty is in part a cultural issue. The days when the sight of an ankle was a public outrage is well and truely over, thank God! But there are still more than a few Catholics out there that would happily issue Burquas to everyone.

I agree with you in part. I suddenly feel obliged to tell a short story that was given to me in my twenties by a friend who actually served in 4 branches of the military - Marines, Army, Navy and National Guard.

A Navy Seal experienced in animal behavior was charged with completing training with his new partner…A dolphin. This dolphin had his basic training done by another trainer and always started his exercises at the South end of his pool. However, the Navy Seal always started training at the North end of the pool.

So every day the Seal would step up to the North end and the dolphin would be waiting patiently at the South end. What the Seal did not realize was that with each training session he started each day ever so slightly further away from the north end of the pool, until a year later he realized that he was starting from the South end of the pool.

The Moral is: If you effect a major change, you must do so gradually. Especially if you are changing a group of people!

Our current Pastor has taken 10 years to take a dying parish of less than 100 families and increase our numbers to over 500 families…and change the dress code. No we do not have a written dress code, but we do ask for business casual or better if possible.

And yes we do get homilies that include dress codes and biblical rules on modesty. We also have 'spaghetti and spirituality on Wednesday’s during let and last year hosted Coleen Hammond to come out and lecture about this also.

 

[Maverick]

Our sense of what is modest should never preclude someone from attending mass. If you find their attire distracting I think the problem more yours than theirs. . If you think someone is dressed imodestly don’t look at them

I have no problem with putting guidelines in the bulletin about what proper attire is or even posting a notice in the narthex. One should never, however, be denied access the Mass because of the way they dress

I agree they shouldn’t ever be denied Mass because of immodest dress. However it is also difficult fpr me not to notice a scantily dressed attractive woman sitting in front of me, and this is indeed sometimes a distraction for me at Mass.

 

[mom4truth]

I am in total agreement with you. I think our pastors should post (somewhere - the church bulletin, the entrance, whatever!) that immodest dress is totally unacceptable. They should also explain what IS acceptable. Just because our teenagers dress “that way”, doesn’t make it acceptable to Christ. I don’t believe our Blessed Mother dressed that way and she was only, what, 14/15 around the time she first appears in the Bible? What gives? Also, parents are responsible for allowing their kids to go out the door dressed so immodestly. What’s their problem? Early adulthood behavior only precipitates adult behavior. Frankly, I don’t want to look at skimpily clad young people, or adults, for that matter. I don’t think Our Lord is happy with this at all!!!

 

[surfinpure]

I am in total agreement with you. I think our pastors should post (somewhere - the church bulletin, the entrance, whatever!) that immodest dress is totally unacceptable. They should also explain what IS acceptable. Just because our teenagers dress “that way”, doesn’t make it acceptable to Christ. I don’t believe our Blessed Mother dressed that way and she was only, what, 14/15 around the time she first appears in the Bible? What gives? Also, parents are responsible for allowing their kids to go out the door dressed so immodestly. What’s their problem? Early adulthood behavior only precipitates adult behavior. Frankly, I don’t want to look at skimpily clad young people, or adults, for that matter. I don’t think Our Lord is happy with this at all!!!

I agree. And someone mentioned a few posts back that the priest couldn’t possibly say anything from the pulpit without offending people and sending them away. This is simply not true. Our priest has said it many times without driving away his flock. And somehow, during the five years he’s been at our parish, the faithful have learned to dress more appropriately for Mass!

Also, to say that anything a priest says would offend the crowd is insulting not only to the priest but to the crowd. Are we all really so arrogant that we cannot receive loving correction from our pastors? Perhaps immodest dress is indicative of an even larger problem, which is disrespect for spiritual authority (rebellion) and an all too popular American idea of “doing it MY way.” (Thank you, Mr. Sinatra.)

Shouldn’t we be much more concerned with doing it God’s way, rather than making God in our image, by saying that “God doesn’t care” how He is worshipped? Who, exactly, are we to say that?

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I think there should be reminders from clergy to dress modestly, in the bulletin or in a sermon or announcement, but I wouldn’t want to see dress codes enforced at the door. The idea of sending people away who are obviously in need of guidance seems mistaken. If we’re so holy that their clothes are objectionable to us, then we should be holy enough to not pay attention or get distracted.

 

[mom4truth]

What “I” meant by posting something at the door, I did not mean literally. I only meant perhaps a notice “somewhere” within the church boundaries. Maybe upon entrance. I don’t know. I also don’t think we’re too holy to be saying that immodest dress is inappropriate. Why would that turn away people? I can understand if someone is financially unable to dress in a certain manner - that is an entirely different manner. But when there are people who blatantly dress provocatively - well - we know they have the funds to dress otherwise. I think arrogance has no part in our pastors telling the congregation to dress properly. It’s pretty common sense to me. And just because people “notice” other people dressed immodestly, doesn’t mean they aren’t holy. It means they’re human. So if we’re all human, why don’t we all dress the way the Lord would want us to and not distract other humans?

 

[Neil_Anthony]

What “I” meant by posting something at the door, I did not mean literally. I only meant perhaps a notice “somewhere” within the church boundaries. Maybe upon entrance. I don’t know. I also don’t think we’re too holy to be saying that immodest dress is inappropriate. Why would that turn away people? I can understand if someone is financially unable to dress in a certain manner - that is an entirely different manner. But when there are people who blatantly dress provocatively - well - we know they have the funds to dress otherwise. I think arrogance has no part in our pastors telling the congregation to dress properly. It’s pretty common sense to me. And just because people “notice” other people dressed immodestly, doesn’t mean they aren’t holy. It means they’re human. So if we’re all human, why don’t we all dress the way the Lord would want us to and not distract other humans?

By “turning people away” I meant that we shouldn’t have an usher at the door telling people they can’t come in if they aren’t dressed according to the code, that’s all. I was just responding to the original question, not to your post

 

[mom4truth]

Oh, o.k., sorry! I just wanted to clarify myself. It’s so easy to misinterpret written words on the board without knowing the “feeling” intended. Thanks!

 

[rinnie]

I dont think there should be actions taken, but I think that people should tell their children to dress better for church. I guess what I am saying is yes I think that you should be covered not short shorts, etc. But I think it should come from your home. It is up to us as parents to teach our kids. Now as far as a suit and tie, dress etc every sunday I dont think thats necessary, But at least be covered and dressed respectfully.

 

[FickleFreckled]

Good morning, or good evening, everyone!

In an earlier post I mentioned a pastor, a youngish, very popular priest (who is now a msgr.) who actually did sort of upbraid the congregation for wearing immodest dress. He simply said that things were getting out of hand, told people what body parts they should and shouldn’t show at Mass, and said that anyone found in an inappropriate state of undress in the future would be asked to leave. This priest also started closing the exit doors and stationing ushers in front of them to make people think twice about leaving early! It worked. because of the way he presented it, with a little humor but firmly, no one was offended. It can be done!

Kolbelover, what a wonderful story. I used to attend daily Mass at a small downtown chapel connected to a charity when I lived in the Pacific Northwest. There were about 25 ‘regulars’, including homeless people who carried everything they owned on their backs, employees who worked with them and downtown business people. There were a few mentally ill folks who could occasionally become disruptive. And some who just came in to get out of the drizzle and cold. You never knew who you would be holding hands with during the Our Father, but no one ever attempted to avoid anyone else. The priest was the kindest man I have ever met, handled unexpected occurrences with sweetness and great affection. He loved the mentally ill most of all, I think. That unadorned chapel with its motley crew of “saints” was the holiest place I have ever been or ever expect to be.

 

[FickleFreckled]

Can I tell another story??? It’s sort of cute. I usually attend Mass with a male friend just barely in his 60’s. Former altar boy, gets really riled up about noisy kids, immodest dress, etc. One Sunday there was an absolutely stunning woman behind us. I mean, drop-dead gorgeous, the kind of beauty that even makes us gals do a double-take. My friend hadn’t seen her because she was sitting directly behind him. During the sign of peace, my friend offers the sign of peace, first to me, then the folks in front and on the side, normal “Peace be with you…Peace be with you…” I wasn’t watching him, but I knew he’d turned around to the woman because out of his mouth came, “Well, hellooo…!” Believe me, it was completely inadvertent and beyond his control. He’s normally a person of decorum and reverence but he was startled by her beauty and reacted like any red-blooded male on autopilot would react.

 

[surfinpure]

Can I tell another story??? It’s sort of cute. I usually attend Mass with a male friend just barely in his 60’s. Former altar boy, gets really riled up about noisy kids, immodest dress, etc. One Sunday there was an absolutely stunning woman behind us. I mean, drop-dead gorgeous, the kind of beauty that even makes us gals do a double-take. My friend hadn’t seen her because she was sitting directly behind him. During the sign of peace, my friend offers the sign of peace, first to me, then the folks in front and on the side, normal “Peace be with you…Peace be with you…” I wasn’t watching him, but I knew he’d turned around to the woman because out of his mouth came, “Well, hellooo…!” Believe me, it was completely inadvertent and beyond his control. He’s normally a person of decorum and reverence but he was startled by her beauty and reacted like any red-blooded male on autopilot would react.

That sounds just like my dad (nearly 80 now!). Thanks for sharing!

 

[KenEOTE]

Your 2nd point suggests that it’s an either/or situation. It is not. People can come properly dressed. Some CHOOSE not to. I’m not suggesting that every male be in a suit and every female a long dress w/ a veil. I’m suggesting that perhaps we could do without flip-flops, shorts and the like. :yup:

I don’t think shorts and flip-flops are a problem. I think Short Skirts and tight tops are. It amazes me how girls and woman will dress this way and then be upset that a guy looks them up and down. Men are visual.
Sexual Addiction is a major problem in the Church not just for the clergy but for the lay people as well. It is a sin we are keeping hidden and in the darkness it escalates and causes marriages to crumble. I would simply ask the woman at the church to help thier brothers out by thinknig about what they are wearing to Church. I think the actions should be taken by the individual, but I think the Priest or Pastor should let it be know the problem that is out there, and encourage the congregation to help eachother battle this issue.
Also more men need to be real and open and honest with eachother and say… Hey I struggle with this, keep me in your prayers. They would be amazed at how many other guys struggle with this as well.

 

[Popes_Soldier]

I agree they shouldn’t ever be denied Mass because of immodest dress…

I don’t agree. If someone came into a church and was disruptive, or wore a shirt that says something foul, or some other unacceptable behavior, a priest or an usher would likely ask them to leave. So why not do the same for real immodest dress? That too is disruptive, and arguably sinful to boot.

Hey, I’m a pretty spry guy, and while I try to be Christian in my thoughts and deeds, sometimes my eyeballs are drawn to some of these girls who dress in a way that we would have called slutty back when I was in school, and then I get upset that I was distracted in such a way. Why should I be forced to avoid the near occasion of sin AT MASS !! Is no place to be sacred any more?

 

[FickleFreckled]

Gonna try this “quote” thing again…if it works, hooray!..

Hey, I’m a pretty spry guy, and while I try to be Christian in my thoughts and deeds, sometimes my eyeballs are drawn to some of these girls who dress in a way that we would have called slutty back when I was in school, and then I get upset that I was distracted in such a way. Why should I be forced to avoid the near occasion of sin AT MASS !! Is no place to be sacred any more?

(did it work???)

We’ve been beating around the bush, but you just put it right out there! “Slutty” is a very apt descriptive, if you ask me. Some of it’s from ignorance, true enough, because there seem to be virtually no moral standards anymore and little parental control, but I don’t believe for a second that the majority of girls and women who dress provocatively aren’t aware of the effect they’re having. Am I judging? You bet I am! I haven’t always been middle-aged or particularly moral.
I knew very well what I was doing, although back then we showed a lot less skin than women do now. The intention and the effect were the same, though.

You shouldn’t have to spend Mass time dodging moral bullets. Half the congregants at any given Mass are male, for heaven sake. That’s a pretty high percentage of discomfort and distraction.

 

[FickleFreckled]

aaaaaaaaarrrrrrgggggghhhhhhh…sorry…it still didn’t work…

 

[Schluns]

Gonna try this “quote” thing again…if it works, hooray!..

Hey, I’m a pretty spry guy, and while I try to be Christian in my thoughts and deeds, sometimes my eyeballs are drawn to some of these girls who dress in a way that we would have called slutty back when I was in school, and then I get upset that I was distracted in such a way. Why should I be forced to avoid the near occasion of sin AT MASS !! Is no place to be sacred any more?

(did it work???)

We’ve been beating around the bush, but you just put it right out there! “Slutty” is a very apt descriptive, if you ask me. Some of it’s from ignorance, true enough, because there seem to be virtually no moral standards anymore and little parental control, but I don’t believe for a second that the majority of girls and women who dress provocatively aren’t aware of the effect they’re having. Am I judging? You bet I am! I haven’t always been middle-aged or particularly moral.
I knew very well what I was doing, although back then we showed a lot less skin than women do now. The intention and the effect were the same, though.

You shouldn’t have to spend Mass time dodging moral bullets. Half the congregants at any given Mass are male, for heaven sake. That’s a pretty high percentage of discomfort and distraction.

Let me see if I can help, I see your problem: there is a at the beginning and end of your quote, make sure that they are both there when you are complete (that you did not accidently delete those also. You will also see =FickleFreckled;4056438 or the persons identifier in side the ] to identify who you are quoting. Only delete data inside the ] and you will be fine. Good luck.

 

[whatevergirl]

I think that our world is very wrapped up with outward appearances. I will honestly say, that I don’t care what someone is dressed like–but, I also agree with some of the posters who have said that one should really try to dress so as not to be distracting to others. (skimpy clothes, bad body odor, etc) I mean, that just requires common sense, and decency to be mindful of others around you at Mass.

My kids sometimes dress in shorts, but typically, they dress up a bit more than that–unless everything is in the laundry. My kids always dress modestly though–no flip flops, etc…the shorts are on the dressier side, and so are their shirts. I will say that I have seen a few people recently ‘dressed to the nines’ at Mass, who have frowns on their faces, and throw a nasty look here and there, to a young mother with a baby making noise. So, outward appearances can be deceiving. Dressing modestly** is **important…no doubt. But, there are many who dress modestly, but are not very friendly, or kind to those around them. While it’s common sense to dress modestly for mass (one would think), it doesn’t mean that if one dresses a little less modestly, that they are less reverant, or less connected with Christ, as one who is dressed modestly.

 

[Schluns]

(did it work???)

We’ve been beating around the bush, but you just put it right out there! “Slutty” is a very apt descriptive, if you ask me. Some of it’s from ignorance, true enough, because there seem to be virtually no moral standards anymore and little parental control, but I don’t believe for a second that the majority of girls and women who dress provocatively aren’t aware of the effect they’re having. Am I judging? You bet I am! I haven’t always been middle-aged or particularly moral.
I knew very well what I was doing, although back then we showed a lot less skin than women do now. The intention and the effect were the same, though.

You shouldn’t have to spend Mass time dodging moral bullets. Half the congregants at any given Mass are male, for heaven sake. That’s a pretty high percentage of discomfort and distraction.

Let me see if I can help, I see your problem: there is a at the beginning and end of your quote, make sure that they are both there when you are complete (that you did not accidently delete those also. You will also see =FickleFreckled;4056438 or the persons identifier in side the ] to identify who you are quoting. Only delete data inside the ] and you will be fine. Good luck.

See here’s another problem by quoting the quote it did not quote the quote properly