Should there be actions taken to improve or even control immodest dress at mass?

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I have read all 40 posts since I started this thread and really appreciate the (name removed by moderator)ut. I know I spoke about ‘strict controls’ in my initial thread message that I had experienced in the Holy Land and the Vatican but to get the issue addressed in the average church I was thinking not so much about ‘stopping’ attendees but rather that our pastors and bishops ought to be taking the initiative to place posters in the entrance ways of our churches that include ‘defining’ what proper dress is because it seems that allot of people have ‘lost’ touch with what modest dress is to begin with. This approach may serve to ‘awaken’ the ‘deadened’ conscience or lost moral code that they obviously need to reclaim. Secondly, a weekly ‘reminder’ in the bulletin could be a wonderful ‘tool’ to get people to ‘think’ about their demeanor. I really don’t think the major portion of immodestly dressed individuals do it ‘intentionally’ but rather just because nobody is objecting to it. Lastly, if all else fails, I suppose people can talk to an offender but somehow I don’t think that would even be necessary if all these other efforts were put in place! We need to bear in mind that everyone is exposed daily to a barrage of indecent exposure through every means of communication we have, but especially TV, which is ‘conditioning’ people that what they are wearing is acceptable. I believe in the ‘What Would Jesus Do’ approach which I think would be to ‘counter’ this bad propaganda with truthful propaganda as ‘gently’ and lovingly as possible!
Deep in the heart of East Texas, of all places, there is a beloved parish priest from India. Fr. Zach does not take enforcing action, but regularly posts appropriate dress guidelines in the bulletin. Has this driven parishoners out? Quite the opposite! In this tiny little Baptist town, hundreds of Catholics flock to Mass. Men, women, teens, and children alike, they all come, and they all respect their loving pastor, who teaches them faithfully to set a Christian example of virtue in every respect.

Nobody is turned away, but very rarely does anyone feel the need to “make a statement” at the most holy sacrifice of the Mass. 😉
 
So Bada:

Do you think there is a problem with no solution --meaning, that people are going to ‘do what they want’ and there is no way that we can ‘stop’ them, so we might as well just accept it?

Or do you think there is no problem at all, no real ‘standard’ for decency or modesty (or none that ‘all’ agree on, which is the same basic idea, if we don’t ‘all’ agree, we can’t really claim to have a standard) therefore the only ‘problem’ is those who claim there is a standard which is not being met?
Certainly there are things that the bishops COULD do. They could mandate some sort of dress code. I assume that it is within their power (if its not, then this a really pointless discussion). The closest I have ever seen to this option is a notice in an Orthodox church bulletin reminding the parishoners that beach wear and church wear were not the same thing. I did not find that particularly problematic, but I also did not see anyone kicking people out.

I fall more towards the second option that you laid out. Standards of modesty are cultural and even within the cultural settings very fluid. Now if I were in Lebanon or Egypt I would not wear jeans to Liturgy, which I do fairly often here in the States. But when the little aunties start harassing me during the coffee hour to tell me I shouldn’t wear jeans, I just roll my eyes. “You should at least dress as nice as you would for work dear”. To which I reply, THIS IS WHAT I WEAR TO WORK. On the other hand, the more Victorian-minded on this thread would probably be surprised what the fashionable woman can be found wearing in a Maronite or Melkite parish in urban Lebanon or Egypt, even if jeans are considered way out of bounds.

Now if the computer science people wore to liturgy what they wear to work THAT would be immodest. Those people dress like slobs. :rolleyes:

Seriously though, I do not see an epidemic of thong wearing men and women showing up for liturgy. If an individual did show up in something that by some miracle we could all agree was extreme, I suspect the members of the parish would be able to deal with it without some sort of action from the powers-that-be.

By and large, people are showing up in the clothing and styles that are either fashionable or comfortable [think of the people showing up in shorts on a Saturday evening at Latin parishes…which doesn’t happen at Melkite parishes, but again we come back to the cultural sensibilities of the individual parish]. This is a thread complaining about fashion. It is hopeless to think that is going to go somewhere and establish a set of agreed upon rules to what people OUGHT to wear. If what someone is wearing to church bothers me, I think for the most part the problem is mine not theirs. This thread doesn’t do much more than create an argument where cause for one does not exist.

salaam.
 
This is a thread complaining about fashion. It is hopeless to think that is going to go somewhere and establish a set of agreed upon rules to what people OUGHT to wear. If what someone is wearing to church bothers me, I think for the most part the problem is mine not theirs. This thread doesn’t do much more than create an argument where cause for one does not exist.

salaam.
The thread started as a thread complaining about dressing immodestly. Fashion and modesty are not the same.
 
What do so many people find so darn offensive about flip-flops???
To me, they’re as close to barefoot as one can get.

I would rather wear a strappy leather sandal, that shows as much as a flip flop, than actual flip flops.

Silly perhaps, but to me flip flops are just too casual for Mass.

I’m not looking to argue, just sharing my opinion on the matter.
 
For example if I had a tenager going through an “awkward” phase who refused to go to mass unless they could wear shorts that I thought were a little too tight then I’d let them wear shorts (thank God, my teenagers have never been a problem, so I haven’t had to deal with this personally).
I never had to deal with that personally, either. You know why? Because I set the rules & standard early on. From the get-go my DD knew what was appropriate attire for Mass & WHY. I would never give in to any threats like that from a teenager, as soon as you do, you’ve lost all control.🙂
 
They only fight against each other if the parent hasn’t set the boundaries at a young age. Given your example, I would not let the teen wear the tight shorts regardless of her feeling “awkward” without them. I too thank God that my Children never went through anything like this. However, I also recognize that a large reason why they never did is because they learned what the boundaries were long before they became teens. Thus, there was never an issue.

I think that at the end of the day we lead by example as well as by direction. If a child doesn’t come out of his/her room wearing appropriate attire for Mass, they should be sent back to their room to try again. But again… if these boundaries are set when they are young, the odds are that this will be a non-issue.
This is a response to post #5.

IMO, this post is so incredibly off-base.

There are many wonderful parents who set boundaries when children are young and do absolutely EVERYTHING right as a parent.

But the kids rebel when they get to be teenagers.

If this didn’t happen to you, it’s not because of your great parenting. It’s because God chose to allow your children to remain well-behaved even as teenagers.

Other families aren’t so lucky. God allows the teenagers to express their rebellion, and it tears the family apart. And when people say, “If only you had set boundaries when they were little, this wouldn’t be happening to your kids right now”–well, that is just so offensive and hurtful and cruel.

Do you also tell people suffering from lung cancer–“See, you should have given up smoking!” Talk about Job’s comforters!

IMO, we as fellow Christians need to remember the promises that we made when the child was baptized, and HELP families who have rebellious teenagers who insist on wearing revealing or otherwise offensive clothing to Mass.

These families are hurting so badly that it is amazing that they can still drag themselves to Mass. We ought to support them in every way that we can, knowing that but for the grace of God go we. They need us more than ever during a time of a rebellious teenager or young person.

**Kicking their kids out or telling them that they can’t come into the building isn’t going to help these hurting families, and this approach may hurt them so badly that they will never come back to church. ** And then their souls will be on OUR heads and we will be accountable.

It is my personal opinion, based on Scripture, that the only person other than Father who has the right to critique a female’s clothing choices is another woman.

If a man other than my husband ever said anything critical to me or my daughters about their clothing choices, I would be furious. It is unseemly and suggestive.

I’m very serious about this. There is a sexual aspect to a man criticizing a woman’s clothing. I think a man should never go there.

Godly and mature women should take it upon themselves to befriend younger women and train them in righteousness and modesty, as St. Paul admonishes. This process will take a long time. It’s not something that a woman can do after Mass in the lobby. She has to slowly earn the trust and friendship of the younger woman and then she will be able to bring up the issue of modest dress and appearance and help the young woman to choose wisely when dressing for Mass.

I know that some of you want the problem solved RIGHT THIS INSTANT!!! But that’s not the way it works, just like rebellious teenagers don’t suddenly stop rebelling. It takes time and patience and lots of love.

If men (or women) are offended or aroused by an immodestly-dressed woman in Mass, they should remove themselves from the temptation by walking away from it, going to the other side of the church building, or even leaving the Mass and returing at a “safer” time when the tempting woman is not around.
 
If men (or women) are offended or aroused by an immodestly-dressed woman in Mass, they should remove themselves from the temptation by walking away from it, going to the other side of the church building, or even leaving the Mass and returing at a “safer” time when the tempting woman is not around.
Where exactly is a godly man to go when nearly everywhere he looks there is flagrant immodesty and disrespect? And what is this man supposed to say to his wife and children? “Honey, I’m going to be in the men’s room for the duration, because there are too many midriffs in here?”

I reject utterly the idea that a woman is not responsible for dressing appropriately – that it is not her problem – and that an innocent man ought to have the burden placed on him to disregard God and his own family and go hide in a corner.

Furthermore, I think men are precisely the people to speak out on issues of modesty, because they are the ones so grievously (and potentially mortally) injured by the actions of indiscreet women. Saying only women can critique women’s dress is like saying drug addicts shouldn’t speak out about the harm of drug use, because only the dealers can really understand. No, the party that is injured ought to speak up, and speak loudly, about what causes the injury. And immodesty, make no mistake about it, causes immeasurable injury to men, in the form of temptation to lust and then damnation of the soul.

If men do not tell us where the problem is, how are we to know, since we ourselves are not attracted to our own bodies??
 
Where exactly is a godly man to go when nearly everywhere he looks there is flagrant immodesty and disrespect? And what is this man supposed to say to his wife and children? “Honey, I’m going to be in the men’s room for the duration, because there are too many midriffs in here?”

I reject utterly the idea that a woman is not responsible for dressing appropriately – that it is not her problem – and that an innocent man ought to have the burden placed on him to disregard God and his own family and go hide in a corner.

Furthermore, I think men are precisely the people to speak out on issues of modesty, because they are the ones so grievously (and potentially mortally) injured by the actions of indiscreet women. Saying only women can critique women’s dress is like saying drug addicts shouldn’t speak out about the harm of drug use, because only the dealers can really understand. No, the party that is injured ought to speak up, and speak loudly, about what causes the injury. And immodesty, make no mistake about it, causes immeasurable injury to men, in the form of temptation to lust and then damnation of the soul.

If men do not tell us where the problem is, how are we to know, since we ourselves are not attracted to our own bodies??
Great comment! Further to your comment, I would add that in the story of the Prodigal Son, the father did not try to ‘convince’ his younger son to stick around and do his ‘partying’ around him but instead he gave him his share and let him go elsewhere to do his ‘unacceptable’ behavior…all the while, praying, hoping, and waiting for his return with great anticipation. When teenagers ‘choose’ to rebel, we must not ‘permit’ the rebellion to happen before our view. We need at the very least, in the case of teens ‘insisting’ on dressing immodestly to attend church to inform them and be sure they understand that they are not only committing sin in so doing but perhaps even a Mortal sin and advise them to go to confession before receiving communion. Knowingly ‘leading’ another to sin is a serious matter! I think a very big part of the problem stems from so many people not even believing in the REAL PRESCENCE of Jesus in the Eucharist and view it as merely ‘blessed’ bread, but that’s a whole different conversation!
 
I am just happy the teenagers are there. What is “immodest” is most often in the eye of the beholder.
Our parish bulletin addressed appropriate attire for the summer time (No sleeveless or strapless tops, no shorts, moderate hemlines) and I haven’t heard any complaints. I also haven’t noticed a drop in attendance by teenagers. 🙂

We seem to forget there is such a thing as being an “occasion of sin” by dressing in a way that distracts others or causes them to have thoughts they would rather not have during Mass.

Here is what I said to my sons when the subject of appropriate clothes for Mass came up. If you were invited to the White House for a special dinner with the president, would you show up in jeans and a t-shirt? If you wouldn’t do that to meet a powerful person of the world, why would you do that to Jesus? There is also the parable about the guest who was invited to a wedding banquet and didn’t come dressed appropriately…I know Jesus was talking about heaven, but isn’t the sacrifice of the Mass our little taste of heaven here on Earth?

If it was a case of people being too poor to afford nice clothes, that would be one thing. But I have frequently noticed people coming out of a primarily Black protestant church just down the road from ours. The cars in the parking lot for the most part are not new, and some look like they’re a bit worse for the wear, but everyone comes out of that church dressed like it’s Easter every Sunday. The boys and men all have ties, the ladies wear hats and all the females are in dresses. It’s humbling, to say the least.

Studies have shown that school uniforms help students focus on their academics. Perhaps more modest clothing would help Catholics become more focused on the sacredness of the Mass.
By modest, I would say, clean slacks and shirts with collars for the men and boys, nice slacks and blouses or dresses with a moderate hemline and neckline for the women and girls. Basically a return to the notion of “Sunday best.”

Just my 2 cents worth…🙂
In Christ,
Jennifer
 
One thing we established from the time our children could participate is the term “Mass clothes”. It became clear to them from a young age that Mass was a distinct activity and required a particular attire (just as the soccer games did). Very little needed to be said once they associated the term with the required choices. When going on vacation it was a bit of an encumberence to pack extra for Mass, but to this day it is understood that we will all comply. Modesty is always considered.

I thought this might help young families who are looking for ways to establish good habits.
 
Perhaps these bulletin annuncements would help

BRITNEY SPEARS CONCERT CANCELLED! Unfortunately, our efforts to get pop sensation Britney Spears to perform a benefit fundraiser for the parish have proven unsuccessful. Her calendar is full. Therefore, those who have been arriving at Mass every Sunday dressed for a Britney Spears concert should know that they don’t have to do that anymore. Modest church-going attire will do nicely. We will notify you if the situation changes.

PLANS FOR PARISH SWIMMING POOL SCRAPPED! After much study, our finance committee has determined it would not be feasible to construct an indoor swimming pool in our church. Among other things, they report, it would interfere with the valuable work now being performed each Sunday by our ushers, who have enough difficulty navigating the aisles without doing it in flippers and a life vest. As a result, we can now announce with certainty that those who have been arriving for Mass as if dressed for the pool need not do so. Also, we hope to keep the air conditioning cranking all summer long. So you do not need to wear shorts, halter tops or bikinis to Mass.

deacbench.blogspot.com/2007/08/bulletin-announcements-id-like-to-see.html
 
I don’t know if it is just a local problem at my own church but I must say that attending church on Sundays in particular is like a day at the beach! I cannot believe how immodestly so many people dress…especially teenagers. It not only takes away the ‘main’ purpose of being there, which is to worship God, but causes sinful thoughts and desires at the one place that should be a ‘safe haven’ from the problem that is prevalent everywhere else. My question is “Should our pastors assert themselves aggressively to stop this practice?” I have heard priests say “well at least they are going to mass!” I heard others say that when they were teenagers, the ‘view’ was what they liked about going to mass on Sundays. It is all so frustrating. These priests who are supposed to be ‘shepherding’ their people seem to be ‘looking’ the other way. Recently, while visiting the Holy Land, I was told that I could not wear ‘shorts above the knee’ to enter ANY of the shrines. I thought it was wonderful! This was told to me by a Franciscan priest who, like all Franciscans, where a long brown tunic every day whether it is ‘too hot’ or not! They truly lead by example! No one is allowed entry into the Vatican who is dressed immodestly. This is ‘enforced’ by security guards. My pastor told me that was because it is a shrine. What is the difference? Isn’t Jesus just as present in the Tabernacle of our local church as He is in shrines? It seems to me the ‘least’ they should do is to post signs at the entrance of the church and/or print guidelines in the bulletin. What do YOU Think???
Unfortunately, we Catholics don’t seem to be able to discipline ourselves very well-in this case, with suitable and modest clothing. Another poster said (on another thread) that it’s hard to be reverent receiving Our Lord from a woman in a pantsuit. I would say, that it’s hard to concentrate at all with some of the immodesty (not to mention, inappropriate clothing - like shorts and T-shirt). At the very least, a pastor apparently needs to lay down guidelines as to what equals modesty in his eyes. If parishioners were aware of His Real Presence, fully (and not just in words) they would be wearing nice clothes on their own plus crawling/groveling down the aisle to receive Him.
 
It isn’t just about what kids wear. There are adult women at Mass with exposed cleavage, short shorts and very short skirts, too. Nobody wears provocative clothing unless they mean to provoke. I heard a really popular priest give a dress code during a homile once ages ago. It covered everybody and so there weren’t any hurt feelings. He said basically, ‘This is where you can show skin and if you show it anywhere else, you’ll be asked to leave and you’ll miss Mass. That will mean missing Mass was your choice, and a sin.’ :clapping:
 
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