Should there be actions taken to improve or even control immodest dress at mass?

[westboro]

Leaving aside the quip about football games, where my point was that if you were being distracted by peoples clothing at church the rest of your life must be real hell…[though Saturday evening services at Latin parishes do drift even more toward clothes you would wear to the movies…which is a more common Saturday evening activity].

My point was not to disregard standards of dress. I have said that not once, but twice before. Instead what I pointed out was that in the prior century people wore clothing to church that had analogs in other aspects of daily life. While people dressed up for Sunday, they were also dressing up for school (especially if they went to private school where a uniform might include blazers and slacks, with a tie), work (the office regularly expected suit and tie), going out to dinner whether in a restaurant or at another persons house was not a casual affair, or a concert, etc. That is quite simply no longer true. The clothing in question is increasingly socially irrelevant.

Children rarely dress up for even a school picture any longer. Is it a surprise that they are resistant to and see through an attempt to dress them in odd clothing that they wear for nothing else when they go to church? They recognize that it is socially meaningless. The office is no longer dominated by the suit…in fact it is becoming rather endangered. Jeans are universal at restaurants as well as for showing up at an person’s house for dinner (and I do not mean a good friend/family…I mean like dinner with your boss and their family).

People are still dressing for church using the same social comparators that their parents and grandparents used. But the standard for those comparators has changed. In my opinion that is all we are seeing in American churches. A certain way of dressing is not just disappearing from churches; it is disappearing period.

On the other hand, if we, who seem to disagree about what constitutes appropriate clothing for church nonetheless agree that the vast majority of persons are fittingly attired, I am not sure why this silly thread exists. Where is the supposed problem that has managed to generate a thread of this length and vigor. I don’t get it.

salaam.

Sounds like there is one ‘constant’ in all your statements. You have come to the conclusion that everyone should ‘give in’ to the latest trend in fashion and disregard traditional dress. I have two thoughts…First, you seemed to have ‘missed’ the core point of the question which is about IMMODEST dress, and it IS something you ‘know’ when you see it. Evidently, it is non existent in your church. That is possible because during a recent trip to St Louis, I attended Sunday mass at a church where nearly everyone was dressed modestly as opposed to my own church.
Second…if you believe in the Blessed Mother, who has made her presence known many times recently (this century) and study her ‘mode’ of dress in those appearances as described by the seers, notice that she has not changed her ‘style’ to the current times. It seems you are ‘oblivious’ to the ‘evils’ of modern trends and have ‘given up’ the fight. All your statements consistently say that we should ‘do’ what society dictates. ‘Some’, and I hope ‘many’ of us would rather keep up the fight to the end!!! We must keep in mind the whole point of our existence, which is to make it to heaven, which, by the way…is not a guarantee!
You summed up the ‘weight’ that all your comments carry in your own words that this is a ‘silly’ thread. Sounds like you need a little entertainment. That is not to be found here!

 

[Popes_Soldier]

I said we need to be clear what we are talking about. The issue is not whether or not one is in the presence of God. This is true all the time…

That IS the issue!! And the REAL PRESENCE of Christ in the Eucharist is SUBSTANTIAL!! Why do you think we kneel before the tabernacle? Why do you think we kneel during the consecration? It because we are kneeling before the Almighty God of the Universe. Can anyone say “Transubstantiation”?

But more than that, why do you seem to be seeking any rational you can find to disrespect the house of the Lord? I hope I don’t get reported for saying this, but in my personal opinion, people who think like you do are people who the Church can do without. Its people with an irreverant attitude that are fouling up our Church. You want to dress like garbage? Go to a Brittney Spears concert and bow before her altar. But don’t do it before the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ in the Eucharist.
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Everybody: Look at what this Church posted at its website, its great:
stpaulparish.ca/how-we-dress-for-mass.php

 

[Sarabande]

I just thought of another idea to implement modest attire, especially for parents of teens. Yesterday’s experience got my husband and I thinking.

Usually when I return from receiving communion, I will bow my head and close my eyes in order to focus and most of the time I keep this position until everything is completed. Yesterday, I had lost my focus for a second and lifted my head. I had been sitting at the end of the pew and just when I lifted my head, two young girls (around 16 or 17) just walked passed me and were standing there waiting to receive communion. They both had extremely nice figures and were in indeed wearing clothes to accentuate their best assets. One girl had extremely short white shorts to the point to you could almost see the bottom of her bum and the other wore a very short skirt almost as short as the shorts which also almost see her bum. Both wore tight tops. I just closed my eyes again and said a prayer for those girls.

As we left the church after the mass was over, my husband placed my attention on the two girls again. We had been talking about modest dress more often because of some of these threads. He leaned over to me and whispered, “Now that is definitely immodest.”

When we got into the car, he said that if those two girls were sitting in front of him it would have been extremely difficult to keep focused especially the one with the short-shorts and the extreme bubble butt that she had. And he said, “What are the parents doing, allowing them to look like that for mass?” We both agreed that it’s one thing if a woman or a man is just naturally beautiful/attractive and you are caught off guard while at mass. That’s natural, but it’s easier to keep your mind off of it because the person is dressed modestly. But it’s another when the clothing being worn by the attractive person is immodest. It must makes it twice as hard for a person who is visually stimulated.

Anyway, we thought that perhaps if the priests don’t feel comfortable talking about appropriate dress during the actual mass, perhaps they could send letters out, even at least to parents in the parish with gentle reminders of how to deal with teens and their current fashion trends at mass. It appears that some parents don’t realize anymore what is immodest and modest. And if they’re not teaching it to their children, who will?

 

[mom4truth]

Badaliyyah,
I think you’ve missed the mark. Just because “time” changes, doesn’t mean God changes. God has always “endorsed” modesty. Always has, always will. Do you think that God thinks: “hmmm, these people are of the 21st century, so I’ll let it slide that many of them dress slutty. Many disrespect My Holy Presence amongst them, and many don’t really CARE how they present themselves to Me, which is MY world.” I doubt He thinks that. I really don’t understand your line of thinking. You seem to be of the notion that whatever is in style is o.k. Well, abortion is quite common, so is prostitution, but that doesn’t make it right, does it? Bottom line: we need a black and white scenario here, not a “well, that’s how people of our culture dress today.” C’mon.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

The church could install a spotlight on the ceiling, and have the ushers point the spotlight at the immodestly-dressed person during the penitential rite. Then everyone turn to them and point and say “immodesty!”

(just kidding)

 

[Tantum_ergo]

We need (and by this I mean us in the Church to start, but ultimately spreading to every person in ‘society’) to re-educate the people about the importance of modesty in that it is essential to maintaining the human dignity of all people.

Too many people think that the whole idea of even ‘judging’ the modesty of an outfit is ludicrous. These are the "modesty is in the eye of the beholder’ crowd, followed by the “cultures change, and standards change, so stop trying to put us back in the Middle ages. It’s the 21st century, man!” crowd, and finally the “God doesn’t care what we wear so long as we focus on him, so get your eyes off my tarty outfit and shut up for you don’t dare to judge ME” crowd.

Notice how few people actually say, "Hmm. Some people are worried about modest dress at Mass. I wonder, could they be right? People sure do dress differently from the way they used to. . .I can see that easily by looking at pictures and hearing stories from people who actually lived then. And some other Christian groups still dress the way Catholics did for Church up until about 40 years ago, which is the way that their parents and grandparents did. Gee, throughout history, it looks like Christians --and nonChristians too–have always had certain ‘standards’ for certain events–have always had certain ideas of appropriate dress, and behavior–and the dress and behavior of many people today is in direct contrast to all that people in ‘healthy’ societies had been wearing and doing in dress and in behavior.

In fact, much of the dress and behavior of people in today’s society mirrors the dress and behavior of sick and dying societies. . .pagan Rome, Germany between the wars, etc. When you see that those societies were notable for proposing immodest dress, and extolled immodest behaviors, and treated vice as a virtue, and denigrated virtues. . .you see how similar they are to a lot of today’s practices.

Those who do not learn from history seem destined to repeat it.

 

[rinnie]

I must say my Dad served mass 5 days a week, for about 20 years.

He wore dress pants, and dress shirt.

Every Sunday Suit and tie.

He wore a suit and tie to church on Sunday for 83 years of his life.

My excuse for getting dressed up was too hot for hose, too humid, etc. He lived in Florida myself in Pa.

He never said a word when we didnt dress up, as long as we were covered, but you know the saying a picture is worth a thousands words. (well his face told the story) he didnt like it, but as long as we went to Church.

But I think the main point is, at least keep yourself covered. If you want to wear shorts and they are long ones, its okay. But real short ones, come on. Same with a shirt if its at least close to your knees, but a mini skirt, And I know people may not be rich but they have clothes that cover themsleves. I know even in my daughters school they had a dress code.

 

[mom4truth]

Tantum ergo:

That was an awesome! You said things far more intelligently than I could. Glad to see we’re on the same page (I think, aren’t we?)

God bless.

 

[mom4truth]

rinnie:

AMEN to your post, too!

 

[surfinpure]

I did not say there was no standard. I said the standard for dress and what is and is not immodest is cultural. Not only that, but within the culture the standard is itself quite fluid.

I am sorry (and even a bit puzzled and confused) if you find the fact that ‘clothing styles and standards of modesty change over time and also vary depending on where you are even now’ to be a dangerous idea. It must be a very dangerous world out there.

Relativism is dangerous, particularly the brand to which you subscribe, which says, “Perhaps there is a standard, but we can never know what it is.” Or even worse, “We each set our own standard.”

Or maybe your experience is not yet broad enough to show you that there really is a quite tangible standard of modest dress for religious participation. It is cultural, of course, but the “culture” in this case encompasses most of Western civilization. You will find that serious Catholics (and serious Protestants, for that matter) across most of North America and Europe seem to have equivalent ideas about what is modest and appropriate attire for church. The variance is among the rest of the attendees, who exalt their own “comfort” or “preference” or “style” above common norms of decency, so that we end up with a fair amount of indignity interspersed among the otherwise dignified crowd.

 

[Popes_Soldier]

If you dress that way it is because you think that whatever it is that you are putting on that morning is an appropriate way to dress…

That is “Relativism”, and its a load of horseapples.

So if a girl thinks its okay to wear a string bikini top & a thong to a Church barbeque, its okay as long as she thinks its “an appropriate way to dress” ?

Relativism is the bane of modern society. “Hey, you can’t judge me. Whats right for you isn’t right for me.” Blah blah blah. Relativism is sheer stupidity, and its ultimate end is that there is NO right or wrong.

 

[ellammcg]

Or maybe your experience is not yet broad enough to show you that there really is a quite tangible standard of modest dress for religious participation. It is cultural, of course, but the “culture” in this case encompasses most of Western civilization.

#1-when my family went with our (then) church to Africa for a mission trip, the women needed to be forewarned about the clothing they were going to wear around the villages. What is “normal” hot weather American clothing is considered to be quite immodest by many other cultures. Some of the African ladies were surprised by the American women’s clothing and asked if “their God lets them dress that way”. (and that was the longer shorts-not the usual short ones they wear to church in So Cal).

#2. My clothing teacher (high school) was the first person I ever heard talk about modest dress. I blew her off since she was the only one who ever spoke to me about such things. I didn’t hear another word about modesty until I attended a church ladies meeting where it was spoken of. I was at first furious and almost stormed out. I then felt increasingly convicted as I read over what the teacher wrote. I spent a lot of hours in Biblical and historical research to discover what the Lord wanted, not what I wanted. I have since changed and I thank God for His mercy and grace.

 

[Popes_Soldier]

#2. My clothing teacher (high school) was the first person I ever heard talk about modest dress. I blew her off since she was the only one who ever spoke to me about such things. I didn’t hear another word about modesty until I attended a church ladies meeting where it was spoken of. I was at first furious and almost stormed out. I then felt increasingly convicted as I read over what the teacher wrote. I spent a lot of hours in Biblical and historical research to discover what the Lord wanted, not what I wanted. I have since changed and I thank God for His mercy and grace.

Kids DO face multiple challenges these days that we didn’t face when I was a kid. But, still, kids are not dumb. You can see how Condolizza Rice dresses, and you can see how Brittney Spears dresses, and you can use a little common sense. And parents need to quit letting their kids run amok.

As a side anecdote: I was in line for confession Saturday, and a young couple was in line right behind me, and their kids were being terrors, and the parents did nothing about it. Everyone was getting torqued off, but the young couple were oblivious to how bratty their kids were. I was a half-inch away from telling the guy to put a muzzle on the little turds, but I bit my lip.

Some parents just don’t seem to get it. As for the adults who dress bad? I still say a priest should put them in check.

Did anyone see this page at a parish website I put in a previous post? Kudos to the priest of THIS parish: stpaulparish.ca/how-we-dress-for-mass.php

 

[CatholiCommit]

I would not have a problem if there were a dress code just because I have seen most of the same things as everyone else is seeing and in my own mind I wonder if they had any common sense enough to wear something more suitable for church, there are still people that really dress up for church not matter what the denomination was.

As much as I want to say to that person that is dressed inappropriately, I know it is not my business to do so, and I guess the only thing we can do at this point is pray that they will get the picture why people are staring at them, however I am afraid right now with attendance being down in most churches this could break what attendance most churches have, I only hope that some point if a dress code issued that it will be decided on how it will be spoken to those who really need to take a closer look on how they dress

I know I am a modest dresser and I always make sure whatever I wear is appropriate for church. It always been like that since I starting going even before I became Catholic.

Most people say they do not care about what they wear and it should not matter, well even if it did not which it does then it is not hard to realize that part of being a member of the Catholic Church is dressing appropriately.

 

[surfinpure]

#1-when my family went with our (then) church to Africa for a mission trip, the women needed to be forewarned about the clothing they were going to wear around the villages. What is “normal” hot weather American clothing is considered to be quite immodest by many other cultures. Some of the African ladies were surprised by the American women’s clothing and asked if “their God lets them dress that way”. (and that was the longer shorts-not the usual short ones they wear to church in So Cal).

#2. My clothing teacher (high school) was the first person I ever heard talk about modest dress. I blew her off since she was the only one who ever spoke to me about such things. I didn’t hear another word about modesty until I attended a church ladies meeting where it was spoken of. I was at first furious and almost stormed out. I then felt increasingly convicted as I read over what the teacher wrote. I spent a lot of hours in Biblical and historical research to discover what the Lord wanted, not what I wanted. I have since changed and I thank God for His mercy and grace.

I felt the same way when I first encountered people teaching real standards of modesty! But the more I read and heard, the less I was able to justify “setting my own standard,” until eventually I submitted, because I could no longer call myself a Christian and knowingly continue to dress in ways that caused others to sin.

Interestingly enough, years before my conversion to Catholicism, I joined Mary Kay. Their training opened my eyes not just to the issue of modesty but of appropriate dress altogether. There are certain articles of clothing that bring about a tone of respect, while others distract the eye and casualize the event. If Catholic women simply followed the Mary Kay dress standard when choosing their clothes for Mass, we would not have a problem with immodesty! And how sad that a cosmetics company is better able to teach its women how to dress than most of our American clergy have been! Perhaps Mary Kay is less worried about offending their salespeople than they are about giving a lousy image of the company. I wish more priests were so protective about the image of the Church!

 

[mammallama]

I’m no fan of blue jeans in church but I’d rather see decent jeans than cleavage and short skirts.Flip flops don’t belong in Mass either,but that beats those hideous hooker shoes.

You know EWTN has a dress code for those who wish to participate in their televised Mass.You won’t see anything obscene there… that’s for sure!

 

[westboro]

however I am afraid right now with attendance being down in most churches this could break what attendance most churches have

Your concern is PRECISELY the EXCUSE priests use to avoid taking definitive action. While it is true that attendance by ‘some’ may go down…so be it!!! That would only be a temporary reaction. The fact to the matter is that the REASON mass attendance is down now is because so many people find it ‘wanting’. Try going to a Latin mass and you can ‘feel’ the awesome respect of the attendees. I believe that once our priests take definitive action at our regular masses, attendance will sky-rocket because then people will truly ‘get something’ out of the experience! It is called sanctifying grace!!!

 

[westboro]

however I am afraid right now with attendance being down in most churches this could break what attendance most churches have,

Your concern is PRECISELY the EXCUSE priests use to avoid taking definitive action. While it is true that attendance by ‘some’ may go down…so be it!!! That would only be a temporary reaction. The fact to the matter is that the REASON mass attendance is down now is because so many people find it ‘wanting’. Try going to a Latin mass and you can ‘feel’ the awesome respect of the attendees. I believe that once our priests take definitive action at our regular masses, attendance will sky-rocket because then people will truly ‘get something’ out of the experience! It is called sanctifying grace!!!

 

[Popes_Soldier]

…I am afraid right now with attendance being down in most churches this could break what attendance most churches have…

GOOD !! If somebody’s Catholic faith is so weak that they would rather miss mass than dress decently, then I say don’t let the doorknob hit them on the way out.

 

[Writer]

Kids DO face multiple challenges these days that we didn’t face when I was a kid. But, still, kids are not dumb. You can see how Condolizza Rice dresses, and you can see how Brittney Spears dresses, and you can use a little common sense. And parents need to quit letting their kids run amok.

As a side anecdote: I was in line for confession Saturday, and a young couple was in line right behind me, and their kids were being terrors, and the parents did nothing about it. Everyone was getting torqued off, but the young couple were oblivious to how bratty their kids were. I was a half-inch away from telling the guy to put a muzzle on the little turds, but I bit my lip.

Some parents just don’t seem to get it. As for the adults who dress bad? I still say a priest should put them in check.

Did anyone see this page at a parish website I put in a previous post? Kudos to the priest of THIS parish: stpaulparish.ca/how-we-dress-for-mass.php

Thanks for the great observations and for sharing that link. This is a problem we’re facing at our parish. It’s not out of control quite yet, but it needs to be addressed in some way. When I mentioned some concerns about the way in which some received the Eucharist a while ago, our priest was kind enough to agree and say that he needs to address some Mass etiquette issues. I’d say this topic needs to be referenced, as well. It all boils down to reverence. One can’t really be reverent when you’re dressed for a beach party.