A Christian community that does not accept converts seems – well, very alien to me. Considering it traces itself back to an apostle, does it not? Who would not himself be welcome because he’s not of that particular ethnicity?
Well from what I understand, converts can still participate in some church activities, but they will never be considered a part of the Knanaya community. They will always be a visitor, no matter how long they live with them and adopt their customs. However, the Knanaya will still regard them as a member of the larger Catholic community.
St Thomas would probably not recognise the Knanaya Qurbana were he to attend one, let alone the songs etc that are unique to the Knanaya. As such he would be anything but welcome as a full member in a Knanaya parish. There most assuredly is a huge contradiction in the fact that he would be nothing more than a guest or visitor like any other guest or visitor when he supposedly founded the church!Well from what I understand, converts can still participate in some church activities, but they will never be considered a part of the Knanaya community. They will always be a visitor, no matter how long they live with them and adopt their customs. However, the Knanaya will still regard them as a member of the larger Catholic community.
As regards to said Apostle, their tradition states their community descended from the Middle East (some even say the Jews). Since the Apostles were Jewish and definitely from Middle East, there would be no great contradiction there. Again, I wish to stress I am not delivering a judgement on the veracity of this tradition. I am merely stating what their tradition is.
Anyway, you’re welcome to join the discussion. The last 23 pages have been trying to grapple with this too, and you may extend it further if you wish.
I think the part they stress in determining eligibility as a member is the lineage, not familiarity with customs. As discussed earlier, a Knanaya immigrant child or apostate would not be familiar with the customs, and yet they may be re-admitted as full members of the community if they are fully endogamous. Customs and practices can be acquired, but not ancestry.
sorry thomas but from the DNA evidence; knanaya group isnt ‘‘PURE’’. since if its already mixed then why cant you give membership to others? what difference can it make? … Christians should be aloud to be member of any parish , even if it is yours. what your doing is unchristian. i get your ancestors had jewish customs and tradition thats why they were endogamous, however the current so called knanaya community cant do that since its mixed. if the current knanaya people want to follow the tradiitons and customs then its totaly fine but then they should also accept others into community.
I would think from reviewing the DNA test below the majority of the Knanaya Community shows Middle Eastern Ancestry. The DNA Tribes Company with their preliminary research labels the Knanaya as a Middle Eastern Genetic Group with unique characteristics.
Hi Thomas
That is very well said but a community has its traditions which its patrons are passionate and prideful about. Endogamy has been recorded to be practiced within Knanaya Churches with records aging as early as the 1500’s. Such a long standing tradition truly defines this community and its identity which its people try so hardly to withhold.Hi Thomas
i understand that the knanaya is a private community and i respect that, but what you should understand is that you should not mix Christianity into you community but it is Christianity that should be your community . i understand that many of the eastern christian churches have segregated communities, and in my opinion it is wrong in fact any one who brings their community above Christ is wrong. and if you are thinking that you are not bringing community above God, then let me ask you if you expel members of your church for marrying with non-knanayas. if you do not then there is nothing wrong and you should continue practicing your customs, but if you if you do then then there is something seriously wrong and you should try to make it right by fighting for what is right and that is Jesus Christ
the Lord has said do not segregate. what i mean by saying this is that marriage outside of your community to another christian should not result in the immediate expulsion from the knanaya church. the bible especially the letters of Paul which were written to all true Christians make it explicitly clear that there should not be segregation and quarreling over genealogies within the christian church. and you should know when it comes to the Bible there are no but’s and if’s especially when both of us believe it is the word of God. and one more thing just because one church does something, it does not make it OK to do the same. if you take your time your time to read the bible fully with an open mind and heart you will see that the early christian communities also made similar mistakes and Paul wrote letters to reprimand their practices and now i’m tying to do the same here remember churches are not perfect they do make mistakes and so if we followed them we will all make mistakes. Anyway if you think about it even if the genetic tests showed that you are a 100% Semitic it shouldn’t stop you from intermarrying with other Christians, remember the there is no Jew nor gentile, no master nor slave, nor male nor female but all are one in Christ part.after all it is the most underlying aspect of what is means to be christian.
p.s. the bible does say about segregation in the old testament e.g. Ezra, now if you do manage to put what he says in context you’ll see that not marrying with the Canaanites was important because they were pagans, and the problem with a believer marrying pagans is that they tended to lead you astray towards idolatry and worshiping the pagan gods ( just look at Solomon ). any way that rule doesn’t apply to Christians communities as Christians don’t have many gods but only One, therefore being led astray in that sense is out of the question.
At the end of the day the Truth is that segregation within christian communities is wrong there is no way around it, under it, above it, there is only through it.there is little compromise because the truth is a narrow gate.
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it” (Matthew 7:13-14)
How every thread gets hijacked by non-Catholics who use it as their personal soapbox against the Church is truly beyond me.
hi, i am roman catholic and FYI i have been contributing to this discussion and if you understand and read what i have said then you will understandHow every thread gets hijacked by non-Catholics who use it as their personal soapbox against the Church is truly beyond me.
If you want to discuss your perceived flaws of the Catholic Church as a non-Catholic and play the “Catholic Church is a bad moral authority” game, there’s a different subforum for this. Otherwise, you’re simply poisoning the well without contributing to the discussion at all. Please give reasonable arguments instead of trying to demolish everybody you don’t agree with.
…if you don like the truth then fine.Oh, even better! All the more that you are welcome to bring it up with the subforum there.hi, i am roman catholic and FYI i have been contributing to this discussion and if you understand and read what i have said then you will understand
haha im writing very happily and your telling me to calm down? anyways i was just saying roman catholic church has a history; where they have done wrong things so i was just telling my brother thomas48 that we cant just startd believing and obeying in what rome says. we have to also look if it matches with the bible. what i am saying is relvant and im replying to what my brother thomas48 is saying. that is allOh, even better! All the more that you are welcome to bring it up with the subforum there.
Being a Catholic doesn’t give you a privilege on this forum to go off on a tangent to discuss your alleged wrongdoings of the Church or for you to attack the moral authority of the Church for matters that are completely irrelevant to this thread or forum. I thought any Catholic would know that. If you wish, you can bring it up on that subforum. However, as long as you are here, do keep your discussions relevant. Do note that I had no issue with the rest of your post, so calm down about ‘the truth’ and lose that condescending tone.
Hi Thomas
Apologies, my friend. It is good to see that you are happy, and I hope this thread might continue to see it so. Yes, some members of the Church have done wrong things, but that does not mean that the Church is a bad moral authority. This moral authority was given by God and cannot be lost simply because of a few people’s grievous sins.haha im writing very happily and your telling me to calm down? anyways i was just saying roman catholic church has a history; where they have done wrong things so i was just telling my brother thomas48 that we cant just startd believing and obeying in what rome says. we have to also look if it matches with the bible. what i am saying is relvant and im replying to what my brother thomas48 is saying. that is all
Indeed we are the Church and not separate from it, so we should not be demolishing the own house we live under. The Church gives us and teaches us the Word of God. There is no inherent contradiction between listening to the Church and obeying God’s commands. The Church’s moral authority has been given by God and led by the Holy Spirit, and hierarchy administers this authority. You are right that we should read the Bible in context, and in fact when we read the Sacred Scripture in context with Sacred Tradition, we find that it means that we should truly be a Christian in this Church. We only call it Catholic because it is convenient, and not to be confused with the Bible-only Protestants who take Scripture out of its context. We are Christians who read and obey God’s Word in context with tradition.
Apologies, my friend. It is good to see that you are happy, and I hope this thread might continue to see it so. Yes, some members of the Church have done wrong things, but that does not mean that the Church is a bad moral authority. This moral authority was given by God and cannot be lost simply because of a few people’s grievous sins.haha im writing very happily and your telling me to calm down? anyways i was just saying roman catholic church has a history; where they have done wrong things so i was just telling my brother thomas48 that we cant just startd believing and obeying in what rome says. we have to also look if it matches with the bible. what i am saying is relvant and im replying to what my brother thomas48 is saying. that is all
Indeed we are the Church and not separate from it, so we should not be demolishing the own house we live under. The Church gives us and teaches us the Word of God. There is no inherent contradiction between listening to the Church and obeying God’s commands. The Church’s moral authority has been given by God and led by the Holy Spirit, and hierarchy administers this authority. You are right that we should read the Bible in context, and in fact when we read the Sacred Scripture in context with Sacred Tradition, we find that it means that we should truly be a Christian in this Church. We only call it Catholic because it is convenient, and not to be confused with the Bible-only Protestants who take Scripture out of its context. We are Christians who read and obey God’s Word in context with tradition.
hi filiiApologies, my friend. It is good to see that you are happy, and I hope this thread might continue to see it so. Yes, some members of the Church have done wrong things, but that does not mean that the Church is a bad moral authority. This moral authority was given by God and cannot be lost simply because of a few people’s grievous sins.
Indeed we are the Church and not separate from it, so we should not be demolishing the own house we live under. The Church gives us and teaches us the Word of God. There is no inherent contradiction between listening to the Church and obeying God’s commands. The Church’s moral authority has been given by God and led by the Holy Spirit, and hierarchy administers this authority. You are right that we should read the Bible in context, and in fact when we read the Sacred Scripture in context with Sacred Tradition, we find that it means that we should truly be a Christian in this Church. We only call it Catholic because it is convenient, and not to be confused with the Bible-only Protestants who take Scripture out of its context. We are Christians who read and obey God’s Word in context with tradition.
However, I am not attacking on your position that the Knanaya are not following scripture. In fact, I actually sympathise with your view and I see the sense in your post, especially where you have quoted Scripture to support your stand. What I am specifically criticising is your inclination to believe that the Church as a whole is wrong. You seem to be overreliant on that argument in order to prove that the Knanaya are sinning. If you read the previous few pages, you would realise that there is no need for that.
Personally, I do not feel that Church’s moral authority necessarily means that the Knanaya’s practices are justified. Thomas48 would disagree with me here (he believes the Church’s noncondemnation/approval of his community’s practices is part of the reason why it should be allowed to continue). However, despite our disagreements, we can both agree on the basic premise that the Church is the moral authority.
Anyway, we’re drifting off topic.
Not just the acceptance or non-condemnation Filii but the elevation of Kottayam to a Metropolitan Archdiocese is what makes me come to this point.Personally, I do not feel that Church’s moral authority necessarily means that the Knanaya’s practices are justified. Thomas48 would disagree with me here (he believes the Church’s noncondemnation/approval of his community’s practices is part of the reason why it should be allowed to continue). However, despite our disagreements, we can both agree on the basic premise that the Church is the moral authority.
Anyway, we’re drifting off topic.
The same reason why theirs a Syro Malabar or Syro Malankara Catholic Church because of separate Christian tradition by that I don’t just mean endogamy but the whole other list of Knanaya Customs that are noted by Rome. Having a Sui Juris Church does not mean “segregation” but an identity, and the Knanaya Catholic Church is well said as and listed as a Sub Sui Juris within the Syro Malabar Church.hi filii
sorry if i have said anything wrong about the RC church. yes what your saying is correct.
i just dont understand why knanaya have their own personal church with a name saying’ knanaya catholic church. why isnt it called just syro malabar catholic church?. they say they dont segregate then why do they have their own way of things? we indian catholics dont say ’ indian catholic church’ do we?. and couple of my friends say they are special as they have pure blood? …like how does that make them special?..
can you please reply to my previous post.