Tis_Bearself
Patron
Huh? Private revelation certainly does “encompass mystic experience”, assuming the mystic experience is coming from God and not a demon of course.
Where did you get the idea it didn’t?
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Where did you get the idea it didn’t?
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Maximus1
Guest
Because I really cannot imagine Roman CATHOLOCISM without mystic experience.
It wouldn’t be Roman CATHOLOCISM. Some fraction of it but different.
It wouldn’t be Roman CATHOLOCISM. Some fraction of it but different.
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undead_rat
Guest
In the two cases mentioned it is known that these Popes were referring to a specific list of predictions. The one selected by Pius XII was actually the phrase meant for him. Unfortunately, we are not allowed to discuss these phrases on CAF.undead_rat:
Given the countless religious phrases used by some revelation or other, it’s hard - no, impossible - for a pope to write a document or give a talk and not use some phrases also used by them…
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puer.dei
Guest
And yet, here you are, doing exactly that.
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undead_rat
Guest
if that was the case, i wouldhave a whole lot more to say about it. all i am doing so far is to address the topic of this thread by pointing out that at least two Popes have taken a certain private revelation seriously. so perhaps we should do the same
Tis_Bearself
Patron
Again, mysticism is a gift of the Holy Spirit that is not given to every Catholic out there. It’s perfectly possible for someone to be a Catholic without having any mystical experience or any other type of “private revelation” at all.
Of course, the Catholic would be required to believe in the mystical experiences that are part of public revelation, such as the ones in Scripture, which would include stuff like the Transfiguration, the Resurrection, etc. So in that sense, mysticism is not only part of Catholicism, but also part of Christianity overall. I don’t think your average Christian church denies that Christ rose from the dead and his apostles and disciples saw him walking around, as Christ’s death and resurrection is a central belief of all Christianity.
There are also plenty of Protestant churches, such as Evangelical churches, that believe in a kind of mysticism in that they believe in the power of God/ Jesus/ the Holy Spirit coming down and working in people’s lives and working miracles.
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JulianN
Guest
Not at all.
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Krisdun
Guest
I think it is important to highlight that if there were no private revelations (or if the church did not approve them at all) then it is probable that we would not have many of the devotions/prayers such as the rosary, the divine mercy, sacred heart etc. that we have today.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
It’s doubtful that we wouldn’t have them at all. All the things you mention - counting out 150 prayers on a chaplet, having devotion to the Merciful Jesus and trust in the mercy of God, and devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, were around before any private revelations associated with them occurred. The private revelations simply served to highlight the devotion or promulgate it in a new way, so in a sense these revelations were gifts from God to help us pray and grow closer to him. It was God’s will that this happen. But we did have the devotions before the private revelations.
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Krisdun
Guest
I would probably go a step further and say that revelations saved these devotions - otherwise they would have been largely forgotten today.
Regarding the Rosary was this not revealed to St Dominic in a vision by the Blessed Virgin Mary?
Also was the sacred heart first revealed to Saint Margaret Mary Alacoque in a vision by Jesus? If not how did the church know about this devotion before this event?
The divine mercy image and Chaplet were revealed to St Faustina only last century.
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JulianN
Guest
That’s one tradition that explains the rosary. However, there’s also a school of thought that the rosary developed gradually over time—there is certainly a practice of counting prayers on knotted ropes that goes back to the Desert Fathers. Also, many religions have some form of prayer beads.
Regarding the other devotions—generally, someone who does not believe in the revelation is not particularly interested in the devotion.
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commenter
Guest
The best way to understand what Pope Pius 12 took most seriously is to read his Encyclicals. The worst way is to follow websites that find hints, code words in his speeches or writings that point to something else concealed from most readers.
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LilyM
Guest
Not every Catholic is blessed to be a mystic, not close. Many great saints were not mystics.
And the fact that some are does not mean that what they experience is relevant to anyone but themselves.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
The apparition to St Dominic is a pious tradition similar to Our Lady handing the scapular to St Simon Stock. You can believe it happened that way, or you can believe that 150 prayers similar to 150 psalms and a scapular representing a lay habit developed historically as a lay person’s devotion, which historically did happen in both cases. Or you can believe both things happened. It’s highly doubtful that no one would pray Rosary today as several religious orders developed their own versions of the Rosary and at least 2 or 3 of those orders are still going strong and promote their own versions. The Church just decided to most widely embrace the Dominican version.
There were several saints before St Margaret Mary who promoted devotion to the Sacred Heart. She didn’t invent that. Now, we could say that she made it more popular, or that God used her as an instrument to increase the spread of the devotion, but it didn’t spring full-blown from a private revelation, it has Scriptural roots. Same for Divine Mercy. St Therese of Lisieux taught stuff very similar to the Divine Mercy teachings, decades before St Faustina’s revelations. And St Therese didn’t invent that teaching either.
It’s fine to say that private revelations helped increase devotion or spread the faith. That’s what they are for. But to say we wouldn’t have the devotion at all without private revelation is incorrect. Private revelations do not add to public revelation. All these devotions were based in public revelation and around before the private revelation.
There were several saints before St Margaret Mary who promoted devotion to the Sacred Heart. She didn’t invent that. Now, we could say that she made it more popular, or that God used her as an instrument to increase the spread of the devotion, but it didn’t spring full-blown from a private revelation, it has Scriptural roots. Same for Divine Mercy. St Therese of Lisieux taught stuff very similar to the Divine Mercy teachings, decades before St Faustina’s revelations. And St Therese didn’t invent that teaching either.
It’s fine to say that private revelations helped increase devotion or spread the faith. That’s what they are for. But to say we wouldn’t have the devotion at all without private revelation is incorrect. Private revelations do not add to public revelation. All these devotions were based in public revelation and around before the private revelation.
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Maximus1
Guest
There is mystic experience as described in the writings of Saint Therese, Julian of Norwich, or Saint John of the Cross. They offer us a glimpse of experience along with gifted writings to enjoy and reflect on.
The experience described by Thomas Merton in Seven Storey Mountain of " oneness" is more typical of mystic experience I think, but there are " message" forms like Julian and others.
You say not everyone is blessed with mystical experience and this is true. My own opinion is not some incapacity, it is always a blessing as you say. But in truth we appear to need to be willing to meet the Lord part of the way. In my experience with fellow Catholics, many are not comfortable. They are not yet contemplatives by nature. Either/or suits them at whatever stage in Christian maturity they are and both/ and remains a challenge. The spark, as Meister Eckhart taught, or Divine Indwelling,would seem alien and unfamiliar if they attended a lecture on Catholic historic orthodoxy.
And yet it is the sense of God, the foundational experience of mysticism, that many rely on as the foundation of a fuller faith.
Mystic experience is not a distant thing reserved to Saints and prophets.
The experience described by Thomas Merton in Seven Storey Mountain of " oneness" is more typical of mystic experience I think, but there are " message" forms like Julian and others.
You say not everyone is blessed with mystical experience and this is true. My own opinion is not some incapacity, it is always a blessing as you say. But in truth we appear to need to be willing to meet the Lord part of the way. In my experience with fellow Catholics, many are not comfortable. They are not yet contemplatives by nature. Either/or suits them at whatever stage in Christian maturity they are and both/ and remains a challenge. The spark, as Meister Eckhart taught, or Divine Indwelling,would seem alien and unfamiliar if they attended a lecture on Catholic historic orthodoxy.
And yet it is the sense of God, the foundational experience of mysticism, that many rely on as the foundation of a fuller faith.
Mystic experience is not a distant thing reserved to Saints and prophets.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
I never said mysticism was reserved to saints and prophets. I’m pretty sure I have some post in this thread or maybe the one that preceded it noting that many people get private revelations and simply don’t share them with anyone outside a small circle, nor do they need to go get them approved. I’ve had such revelations, people in my family have had them, people on this forum have mentioned having them, I’ve heard priests talk about their own or read their stories about having them. All of these revelations were private, primarily for the person getting the revelation; for example the priest revelations were often things that confirmed they were being called to be priests, the ones laypeople get often have to do with making life decisions about marriage or concern over the ultimate fate of a deceased loved one. The people who have these revelations don’t present them as “here’s a message for the whole world” so they don’t come to public attention and don’t need to be approved.
I really don’t care if other people take an interest in mysticism or not, but they need to realize that if they decide to pursue that interest, they can’t be trying to match up Fatima to Donald Trump, or being worried that the 3 Days of Darkness will hit and they won’t have a 100 percent beeswax candle in the house, or making speeches about how if they get deep enough into this devotion they’ll be able to bilocate like St. Pio (yes I have heard someone say this in a prayer group meeting). They need to view these things in the larger context of public revelation and also realize that private revelations are meant to relieve anxiety and bring you closer to God, not the opposite. Finally, they need to know the private revelations are not required beliefs for Catholics, so if it’s just too much for them, they can step away.
I really don’t care if other people take an interest in mysticism or not, but they need to realize that if they decide to pursue that interest, they can’t be trying to match up Fatima to Donald Trump, or being worried that the 3 Days of Darkness will hit and they won’t have a 100 percent beeswax candle in the house, or making speeches about how if they get deep enough into this devotion they’ll be able to bilocate like St. Pio (yes I have heard someone say this in a prayer group meeting). They need to view these things in the larger context of public revelation and also realize that private revelations are meant to relieve anxiety and bring you closer to God, not the opposite. Finally, they need to know the private revelations are not required beliefs for Catholics, so if it’s just too much for them, they can step away.
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Bithynian
Guest
One interesting private revelation (although the term is a bit of a misnomer) is the 14th century English anchorite Julian of Norwich and her book ‘The Revelations of Divine Love’, which is also the earliest extant book in English written by a woman.
Julian was never canonised by the Catholic Church partially because she and her writings went through the rollercoaster of the Reformation and was periodically forgotten, only to be rediscovered and then forgotten again.
But she has now has a well established cult of veneration and her writing has been subject to quite a lot of scholarship. Pope Benedict even discussed her theology in an address.
She exists in that weird grey area: not quite a saint but highly venerated, not quite an approved private revelation but whose writings are studied and referenced by many.
Julian was never canonised by the Catholic Church partially because she and her writings went through the rollercoaster of the Reformation and was periodically forgotten, only to be rediscovered and then forgotten again.
But she has now has a well established cult of veneration and her writing has been subject to quite a lot of scholarship. Pope Benedict even discussed her theology in an address.
She exists in that weird grey area: not quite a saint but highly venerated, not quite an approved private revelation but whose writings are studied and referenced by many.
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Maximus1
Guest
OK.
Thanks for taking the time for clarification.
What you posted makes sense.
Whatever your description mixed with Trump is riddled with features one would not associate with mysticism obviously.
" Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God, seems closer to the mindset Jesus himself describes for mystic experience. One can imagine people adopting ascetic lifestyles willingly and happily in order to experience God.
The Catholic text, THE CLOUD OF UNKNOWING describes the contemplative devotional practices of mystics in our history if you audited the various mystics. At least in terms of general devotional ideas. I recently read parts of it when I noticed your post.
The description " unknowing" is a word to describe the deeply personal experience with our ineffable God. The cloud itself, is a metaphor for the truth mystics describe which is our lack of capacity to comprehend," or see" God, due to our limitation.
The Hebrews spoke of not being able to see God’s face.
In fact I forget the passage, but Moses is described as having God’s hand placed over him, as Moses is pushing into rocks
as God passes, only past, can Moses make out God’s back.
This is also consistent with mysticism. They describe recognising God, somehow after the encounter.
Merton of course had an experience of oneness with everything, eye opening and life changing.
Saint Francis recognised Brother Sun and Sister moon.
Frankly mystics I read offer the word unknowing, as opposed to prepared speeches about Trump. As if the God of everything had the time. Or inclination
Thanks for taking the time for clarification.
What you posted makes sense.
Whatever your description mixed with Trump is riddled with features one would not associate with mysticism obviously.
" Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God, seems closer to the mindset Jesus himself describes for mystic experience. One can imagine people adopting ascetic lifestyles willingly and happily in order to experience God.
The Catholic text, THE CLOUD OF UNKNOWING describes the contemplative devotional practices of mystics in our history if you audited the various mystics. At least in terms of general devotional ideas. I recently read parts of it when I noticed your post.
The description " unknowing" is a word to describe the deeply personal experience with our ineffable God. The cloud itself, is a metaphor for the truth mystics describe which is our lack of capacity to comprehend," or see" God, due to our limitation.
The Hebrews spoke of not being able to see God’s face.
In fact I forget the passage, but Moses is described as having God’s hand placed over him, as Moses is pushing into rocks
as God passes, only past, can Moses make out God’s back.
This is also consistent with mysticism. They describe recognising God, somehow after the encounter.
Merton of course had an experience of oneness with everything, eye opening and life changing.
Saint Francis recognised Brother Sun and Sister moon.
Frankly mystics I read offer the word unknowing, as opposed to prepared speeches about Trump. As if the God of everything had the time. Or inclination
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Krisdun
Guest
It is not to say that the devotions would not exist but would the lay faithful have knowledge of them as we do today if it were not for private/public revelations? Otherwise only a select few in religious orders may have practiced them today. Also, the question arises as to whether these devotions (e.g. rosary, divine mercy, sacred heart, miraculous medal) were created by man or were they spiritual gifts given to us from heaven?
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
Once again, religious orders create and promulgate devotions to lay people on a regular basis throughout history. Historically, such orders have been responsible for a lot of ministry to local people and catechization of people. They don’t just go into a monastery, do their thing and never interact with the people on the outside. In some cases their main charism involves interacting with lay people.
You seem to be fixated on the idea that without private revelation, we’d be missing some very important things. Yes, devotions can be seen as spiritual gifts given to us by God. The inspiration is coming from God whether he makes the devotion known by sending Mary to appear to a future saint, or by just inspiring a monk in a monastery to come up with a devotion and teach it to local people. God gives us gifts in a variety of ways, and private revelation is just one way, it’s not the only way.
With that, I think I’ve participated way more than enough on this thread and the discussion is beginning to repeat itself, so I will step off now. Have a nice day.
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