Should we be able to become CLOSE friends with the non Christ-centered?

[Lazerlike42]

I was having a discussion this evening with a friend about this. I am firmly of the belief that that we should not be able to become close friends with those who are not centered on Christ. Let me explain.

I said that one of the reasons I have no close friends is that Christ is so central to who I am as a person, that I cannot connect on that intimate a level with those for whom He is not also in that same position. Now I believe that one ought to be able to be friends with such persons, and that one ought to be able to interact socially, but to gain someone as a best friend who is not centered on Christ seems to me not to be something that ought to be possible. If Christ is so much a part of my very soul, then it would seem that I wouldnt be able to make a new friend who didn’t care all that much, if at all, about Him.

Now I am not referring to cases where a person already has a close friend before becoming a deeply devoted follower of Christ. In that situation, a bond has already been made. However, if someone doesn’t care about Christ, and He is the single most important thing to me, I just don’t see how growing close to that person is even possible. It would seem to me that if I am able to become intimate with a person whom does not care deeply about Christ, then I must not really care too much about Him either.

He is living in my soul! It is no longer I who lives, but Christ Who lives within me! How can I connect on a deep, intimate level with someone who doesn’t care about Him, or worse yet, someone who hates Him?

Wouldn’t this be like a married man growing to be close friends with someone who hates his wife?

Please explain your reasoning.

Peace and God bless

 

[Coreopisis]

Some things that come to mind:

Christ himself came to this earth to develop relationships with those who didn’t know him. Should we be so different?

A person can come to love us through Christ.
Can not a person also come to love Christ through us?

With these things being said I think it is our duty to embrace those who don’t believe in Christ and be there friend. Show them what it means to be Christ-like.

What would our world be like if all Christians stayed at an arms length from those who weren’t “Christ centered.”

 

[Awake]

I was having a discussion this evening with a friend about this. I am firmly of the belief that that we should not be able to become close friends with those who are not centered on Christ. Let me explain.

I said that one of the reasons I have no close friends is that Christ is so central to who I am as a person, that I cannot connect on that intimate a level with those for whom He is not also in that same position. Now I believe that one ought to be able to be friends with such persons, and that one ought to be able to interact socially, but to gain someone as a best friend who is not centered on Christ seems to me not to be something that ought to be possible. If Christ is so much a part of my very soul, then it would seem that I wouldnt be able to make a new friend who didn’t care all that much, if at all, about Him.

Now I am not referring to cases where a person already has a close friend before becoming a deeply devoted follower of Christ. In that situation, a bond has already been made. However, if someone doesn’t care about Christ, and He is the single most important thing to me, I just don’t see how growing close to that person is even possible. It would seem to me that if I am able to become intimate with a person whom does not care deeply about Christ, then I must not really care too much about Him either.

He is living in my soul! It is no longer I who lives, but Christ Who lives within me! How can I connect on a deep, intimate level with someone who doesn’t care about Him, or worse yet, someone who hates Him?

Wouldn’t this be like a married man growing to be close friends with someone who hates his wife?

Please explain your reasoning.

Peace and God bless

That seems kind of stuck up, to be honest. Christ spent his time with tax collectors and sinners, not saints.

Wouldn’t this be like a married man growing to be close friends with someone who hates his wife?

If I was married, it *would *be difficult to be friends with somebody who constantly said how much he hated my wife and constantly put her down.

However, if he really disliked my wife but was always polite to her and never said any demeaning comments about her, I could still become good friends with him. I recognize that not everybody likes the same people I do.

 

[Mark_Robert]

Frienships are created through a natural kinship or compatability of personalities. You have social chemistry with some and not with others. I think it has very little to do with spirituality. It’s more in the realm of fraternal love to be distinguished from agape or God’s love.

 

[Lazerlike42]

I want to make something clear here that seems from the comments made so far to have been misunderstood - though of course I could be mistaken.

I am not talking here about being friendly with, or even being friends with non-Christ centered folks. I’m talking about being close friends with: intimate friends, best friends, that sort of thing.

Christ certainly ate with sinners, and He loved them and spent a great deal of His time with them. However, would you say He was close friends with any of them? I wouldn’t. I would say He was close friends with John the Apostle, and perhaps a few of the other apostles - perhaps even all of them. A close friend is not just someone you might spend some time with, or go out with from time to time, but the kind of deep, lifelong friend that you share yourself with in a way that is second only to one’s spouse.

A close friend is the sort you will share almost anything with, that you prefer to the company of any others, perhaps the sort of friend that is just as frequently present at your family gatherings as actual members of your family.

When I think about it, I look at it this way. I have Christ on my mind constantly, literally 24/7. No matter what I am doing, whether it is praying, taking a walk, enjoying a nice meal, watching a baseball game, or anything else you could imagine, I want to be doing it for the glory of God and the Love of Christ and that alone. I can’t say I always achieve this, for I’m not perfect. The point I am making is simply that Christ is absolutely everything to me and I want Him to be the biggest part of every moment in every place down to the tiniest second in my life. I would prefer to speak nothing else but of Christ, and to hear of nothing else but of Christ.

So to me, I just can’t conceive of how it would be possible for me to become close friends with someone for whom Christ is not important. I certainly love such people, and I can certainly spend time with them, either as friends who may share a common interest or two or as folks I am simply trying to bring to Christ. However, my life is so much about Christ that I can’t conceive of how I could develop an intimate connection with such a person: how I share my burdens with someone who won’t think of Christ when pointing out His Love is the only thing that can console me, or spend a great deal of my social time with someone who isn’t going to be even thinking of Christ for the vast majority of the time, or things like that. I just can’t… I can’t wrap my mind around it. I am completely lost even trying to envision such a thing, honestly.

When two people become close friends, isn’t it typically because of common interests, common goals, or ideals? More importantly than these things, isn’t it because they care about and support one another deeply in the most important aspects of their lives, and because they simply connect in the very core of their beings? So if I strive for every millisecond of my life to be full of Christ, and someone else hardly thinks of Him, how can it be said that we have common interests, goals, or ideals that form the most basic elements of friendship, and how can there be a deep connection between the very core of our beings which constitutes the greater beauty of an intimate friendship?

Peace and God bless

 

[Awake]

Lazer, I suspect there is a specific person you are thinking of.

There are many devout Catholics who are married to non-Catholics. They may disagree on religion or spirituality, but they are both humans on the journey of life both seeking to find the truth.

If you’re life is really as Christ-centered as you say it is (which I hope it is), my guess is that it’s not because you are constantly thinking about church doctrines, but rather that you are trying to lead a life filled with the love of Christ. Cannot other people experience that same love but just not recognize it is from Christ?

 

[Lazerlike42]

Lazer, I suspect there is a specific person you are thinking of.

There are many devout Catholics who are married to non-Catholics. They may disagree on religion or spirituality, but they are both humans on the journey of life both seeking to find the truth.

If you’re life is really as Christ-centered as you say it is (which I hope it is), my guess is that it’s not because you are constantly thinking about church doctrines, but rather that you are trying to lead a life filled with the love of Christ. Cannot other people experience that same love but just not recognize it is from Christ?

There is no specific person in mind, and it has nothing to do with any doctrine. I just can’t conceive of how one who has Christ as the very center of his life could become - in the first place, not talking about what happened before one was close to Christ - close to someone who does not. I may pick up a lot of anger for this, but I do not believe that any person who is already a devout Catholic would marry someone who is not. It is different if someone is married and them comes to a close relationship with Christ, but in my experience, those who care about Christ more than anything in the world cannot even begin to get along with someone who do not in a romantic relationship. I know of only a few who would even consider going on a first date with such a person.

That’s the thing - when someone is already close to Christ, everything else in his or her entire life flows entirely around Him. Such a person just wouldn’t get along well enough with a non Christ-centered person in the very intimate details of their life to even begin to think about marriage. St. Paul explicitly warns us not to try such a thing, and even provides a license to divorce to avoid such a thing.

Now you are correct, one may have the love of Christ without knowing Him by that name, and the Grace of Christ can make such a marriage or friendship work when two people find themselves in it. I’m talking about forming these relationships in the first place.

Even if we ignore the magnitude of Christ and just how important He is, I can’t see this sort of idea even if we plug something else in in His place. For example, if the single most important thing in Frank’s life is Star Trek, and it is so important that he spends several hours a day watching it, and he goes to all the Star Trek conventions, and he reads Star Trek books and talks about it all the time, how is it possible that he would ever develop a connection with someone who doesn’t care about it at all that reaches to the level of intimacy? I can imagine Frank becoming friends with a non-fan, perhaps becauses they met at work and share a few other things, or because they both go to bingo Monday nights, or something like that, but becoming close friends, when the thing that Frank spends 8 hours a day on and simply cannot go a day without is not even on the other person’s radar screen? I just can’t see it at all.

Peace and God bless

 

[Flopfoot]

Nice to see you again LL, it’s been a while.

I’ve been a Catholic my whole life, yet I have a few close friends who either don’t believe in God or who don’t practice their faith. Some of them have other common interests with me that we spend a lot of time doing together, like playing computer games. However in some cases common interests aren’t even necessary. Every human has a natural desire for friendship. Sometimes people just “come together” and stick around because each is happy to fulfil the other’s needs (often as simple as a bit of time to listen to each other). Especially in my case, I don’t want to talk to my parents about a lot of things but feel I can confide in my friends. A person who treats you like a good friend should, is a good friend regardless of their faith or their interests.

Developing my faith, at this point in my life, is mostly my own problem. It might be nice to have friends that could help but in the absence of strong Catholic friends I can just pray or use these forums or read Catholic materials or talk to a priest or anything. Just 'cause there’s one aspect of my life that my friends can’t help me with, doesn’t mean they’re useless. But the funny thing is that usually I will talk to my non Catholic friends about faith issues anyway… they might not often have good advice to give, but at least they try to help, and most importantly they listen to me.

 

[jmeyer3131]

I get your point. I find myself talking about God all the time. I would have difficulty being close to somebody who didn’t want to hear about God, but that doesn’t mean the person has to be Christ-centered.

I had a close friend who was an atheist. We talked about anything of importance to us. He heard a lot about God and about Catholicism.

I know a priest who gives homilies that never fail to give me something to think about. Those were important to me, too, and I’d share them all the time with my atheist friend.

One day I got an email from my friend, telling me his favorite emails from me were those where I shared the homilies.

So yes, it can be done. It depends on the level of respect and understanding your friend has.

 

[Awake]

There is no specific person in mind, and it has nothing to do with any doctrine. I just can’t conceive of how one who has Christ as the very center of his life could become - in the first place, not talking about what happened before one was close to Christ - close to someone who does not.

I’m sorry, it sounds arrogant and extremely conceded to me. What it comes down to is you love Christ so much that you can’t love a person who does not share the same theological views. You have a special link directly to God and can’t become close friends with others who don’t share this same gnosis.

I think you need to meet more people. Things are not as black and white as you might think.

I may pick up a lot of anger for this, but I do not believe that any person who is already a devout Catholic would marry someone who is not.

I would bite your tongue before you say this to somebody in person. I guarantee you that somebody will be offended by this remark.

It is different if someone is married and them comes to a close relationship with Christ

Why? Somebody can truly love their spouse when they are both non-Catholic. If one becomes Catholic, does that mean they’ll suddenly start loving their spouse less or start having a less intimate bond?

For example, if the single most important thing in Frank’s life is Star Trek, and it is so important that he spends several hours a day watching it, and he goes to all the Star Trek conventions, and he reads Star Trek books and talks about it all the time, how is it possible that he would ever develop a connection with someone who doesn’t care about it at all that reaches to the level of intimacy? I can imagine Frank becoming friends with a non-fan, perhaps becauses they met at work and share a few other things, or because they both go to bingo Monday nights, or something like that, but becoming close friends, when the thing that Frank spends 8 hours a day on and simply cannot go a day without is not even on the other person’s radar screen? I just can’t see it at all.

I don’t see that as a compatible analogy. Two people can be married and both have love at the very center of the lives. One person may recognize that this love comes from Christ, while the other does not recognize it comes from Christ. Can these two people connect on an intimate level, love each other dearly, and help each other to reach heaven? You may not think so, but I do.

 

[Lazerlike42]

I’m sorry, it sounds arrogant and extremely conceded to me. What it comes down to is you love Christ so much that you can’t love a person who does not share the same theological views. You have a special link directly to God and can’t become close friends with others who don’t share this same gnosis.

Awake, that’s not at all what I’m saying. To love someone, and to be intimately friends with them, are two entirely different things. To be intimate friends with someone requires that one loves him, but to love him does not require that one be intimate friends. Thomas Aquinas even writes about how it we ought to show more love to those closer to us than those who are not close to us, though we must love them all.

Like I said, Christ spent all His time around sinners, but He wasn’t intimate friends with them. He was intimate friends with a few select people. Even he had a few unique best friends in the midst of all of humanity that He loved.

I would bite your tongue before you say this to somebody in person. I guarantee you that somebody will be offended by this remark.

This may be so, but that has nothing to do with whether or not it’s true. In any case, the point I was making was based off of a bunch of flesh and blood real people. Christ is too important to them to be able to develop an intimate bond with someone to the point of marrying them if they too do not have Christ at the center of their lives.

Why? Somebody can truly love their spouse when they are both non-Catholic. If one becomes Catholic, does that mean they’ll suddenly start loving their spouse less or start having a less intimate bond?

I think you missed my point. My point was that it’s a different matter when someone is already married and then becomes Catholic. That person already has an intimate bond with their spouse. This is different from someone who is already a devout follower of Christ growing that close to someone who is not.

I did, however, point out that even God, who condemns divorce in the strongest tems possible, has explicitly told us that He is so important that He will permit divorce in the case of a person who comes to Him after marrying. I’m not saying that such spouses cannot continue to love one another. I am just pointing out that it is so important that God has made an exception to one of His commands for it’s sake.

I don’t see that as a compatible analogy. Two people can be married and both have love at the very center of the lives. One person may recognize that this love comes from Christ, while the other does not recognize it comes from Christ. Can these two people connect on an intimate level, love each other dearly, and help each other to reach heaven? You may not think so, but I do.

It’s not about where the love comes from. It’s about the fact that Mary likes to go to Mass every day, pray about 2 hours a day, read the Bible, and watch EWTN in the evenings, and John hardly even makes it to Mass on Sundays and spends most of his time watching South Park. How can these people possibly develop a close enough connection to want to marry, or even spend enough time together to get that close? That’s what I’m trying to get at.

Peace and God bless

 

[Kevin42]

Like I said, Christ spent all His time around sinners, but He wasn’t intimate friends with them. He was intimate friends with a few select people. Even he had a few unique best friends in the midst of all of humanity that He loved.

I understand the point you are trying to make, but I question your example. First look at the character of the people before and when Christ chose them. For the most part, I don’t think it was superb. Might we be able to argue that it was because Christ was intimate with them that they became Christ centered. The apostles were indeed sinners both before and after encountering our Lord. And furthermore, commenting on a simple flaw in the comparison, is that our Lord is most intimate with every soul that has ever lived.

Interesting conversation, and I hope that I will be able to add to it. Pax et bonum!

 

[peary]

I was having a discussion this evening with a friend about this. I am firmly of the belief that that we should not be able to become close friends with those who are not centered on Christ. Let me explain.

I said that one of the reasons I have no close friends is that Christ is so central to who I am as a person, that I cannot connect on that intimate a level with those for whom He is not also in that same position. Now I believe that one ought to be able to be friends with such persons, and that one ought to be able to interact socially, but to gain someone as a best friend who is not centered on Christ seems to me not to be something that ought to be possible. If Christ is so much a part of my very soul, then it would seem that I wouldnt be able to make a new friend who didn’t care all that much, if at all, about Him.

Now I am not referring to cases where a person already has a close friend before becoming a deeply devoted follower of Christ. In that situation, a bond has already been made. However, if someone doesn’t care about Christ, and He is the single most important thing to me, I just don’t see how growing close to that person is even possible. It would seem to me that if I am able to become intimate with a person whom does not care deeply about Christ, then I must not really care too much about Him either.

He is living in my soul! It is no longer I who lives, but Christ Who lives within me! How can I connect on a deep, intimate level with someone who doesn’t care about Him, or worse yet, someone who hates Him?

**Was this Christ’s example when He dealt with sinners? You never know when the Holy Spirit, through you, will touch the life of a non-Christ-centered person. **

 

[Lazerlike42]

I understand the point you are trying to make, but I question your example. First look at the character of the people before and when Christ chose them. For the most part, I don’t think it was superb. Might we be able to argue that it was because Christ was intimate with them that they became Christ centered. The apostles were indeed sinners both before and after encountering our Lord. And furthermore, commenting on a simple flaw in the comparison, is that our Lord is most intimate with every soul that has ever lived.

Interesting conversation, and I hope that I will be able to add to it. Pax et bonum!

Thanks for your kind tone.

Maybe people misunderstand my question. When I say “should,” I don’t mean ought it to be allowed. I mean to ask whether it is something that is really possible to happen. Certainly, we ought to give ouf ourselves as best we can to others, be they Catholic, Protestant, believer, friend, or enemy. We should share of ourselves, and in Christ doing so, these people became Christ centered - the apostles did, in this way. Yet even as Christ did this, He had a close friend in John the Evangelist, for example, who was his friend - something… somehow different from just a person He was reaching out to, or teaching. John was someone whom on a human level, Jesus enjoyed the company of.

I mean, taking God completely out of it, how do people become close friends? They have similar interests, don’t they? Or similar aspirations, or other such things? When I was a teenager, my best friend was a kid who was into a lot of the same things I was. That’s why we were friends, and as a result of being into the same things like that, we spent a lot of time together, and so we became close and we began to trust one another and to share intimate feelings and thoughts.

So, if the thing I spend not part of my time, or most of my time - like with my teenage best friend - on, but all of my time, is something that another person spends hardly any time on, how, on a purely human level, would I ever develop a close friendship with that person? If was some guy who spent every free moment watching sports, how would it ever happen for me to develop a close friendship with a guy who didn’t like sports at all?

Does that make more sense??

Peace and God bless

 

[Lazerlike42]

**Was this Christ’s example when He dealt with sinners? You never know when the Holy Spirit, through you, will touch the life of a non-Christ-centered person. **

Well yes, but again, I’m not talking about interacting with people, or socializing, or even being friends with them. I’m talking about being close, intimate friends… like… David and Jonathan, or Francis and Clare… like Jesus and the Apostle John. He was close to Jesus in a special way, that all those sinners and even the other apostles weren’t. That’s what I’m talking about… a close friend… an intimate friend… a best friend. Someone who you want to spend your recreation time with, and who you turn to for counsel and comfort, and that sort of thing.

Peace and God bless

 

[Tonks40]

Lazerlike42:

I read your post with great intrigue. From my relatively-secularist pov, I can see why people would say that your perception of gaining newly-close friendships is kinda elitist.

To understand where you are coming from, though, I looked at St. Therese of Lisieux. When reading “Story of A Soul” she had her moments where gaining friendships, especially those who were hard to be friends with, was difficult and challenging. Like you, her thoughts were on Christ constantly. Her existence and sole purpose was to be united with him, and she was greatly rewarded.

Did that stop her from gaining those intimate relationships which you describe? I’m not sure, but I do know that she preservered not only in living the life of Christ, but she also tried to stay connected with those who surrounded her, mainly, I believe, because this is what Christ wanted her to do.

We’re all called to love one another - that is one of God’s greatest commandments. Another thing he said was that the greatest thing one can do for another is to lay down his life. Being connect with someone, understanding where they’re coming, having that intimacy with someone else only furthers the cause of love for each other, to the point even where we would do anything to defend and protect that person. It gives us the will to go over and beyond what our own expectations are. God is in all of us…we need to cherish and protect that.

Would you be willing to do that for someone else…whether or not he was Christ-centered or not?

 

[peary]

Well yes, but again, I’m not talking about interacting with people, or socializing, or even being friends with them. I’m talking about being close, intimate friends… like… David and Jonathan, or Francis and Clare… like Jesus and the Apostle John. He was close to Jesus in a special way, that all those sinners and even the other apostles weren’t. That’s what I’m talking about… a close friend… an intimate friend… a best friend. Someone who you want to spend your recreation time with, and who you turn to for counsel and comfort, and that sort of thing.

Peace and God bless

**God works in strange ways. The Holy Spirit comes through even sinners. But I fail to understand exactly what you are attempting to share in your post. **

 

[Flopfoot]

Perhaps (though I’m not sure on this), LL’s point of view is that while you might be able to love a person even though they’re not Christ centred, they may not be able to love you back in the same way because how could they understand you if your main interest is Christ and they don’t care much for him. But I already said in my other post that I don’t think common interests are even necessary for close friendships, and that you can still talk about spiritual issues even with someone who doesn’t share your faith.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Lazerlike42:

I read your post with great intrigue. From my relatively-secularist pov, I can see why people would say that your perception of gaining newly-close friendships is kinda elitist.

To understand where you are coming from, though, I looked at St. Therese of Lisieux. When reading “Story of A Soul” she had her moments where gaining friendships, especially those who were hard to be friends with, was difficult and challenging. Like you, her thoughts were on Christ constantly. Her existence and sole purpose was to be united with him, and she was greatly rewarded.

Did that stop her from gaining those intimate relationships which you describe? I’m not sure, but I do know that she preservered not only in living the life of Christ, but she also tried to stay connected with those who surrounded her, mainly, I believe, because this is what Christ wanted her to do.

We’re all called to love one another - that is one of God’s greatest commandments. Another thing he said was that the greatest thing one can do for another is to lay down his life. Being connect with someone, understanding where they’re coming, having that intimacy with someone else only furthers the cause of love for each other, to the point even where we would do anything to defend and protect that person. It gives us the will to go over and beyond what our own expectations are. God is in all of us…we need to cherish and protect that.

Would you be willing to do that for someone else…whether or not he was Christ-centered or not?

I would be willing to lay down my life for anyone, or at least I now hope that if that time came I would have the strength to do so. I ought to be willing to talk to anyone, to give to anyone, to be there for anyone. Love knows no bounds. I have, currently do, and will continue to give of myself as much as I possibly can to all, whether they are friends or not, close or not, even if they do not like me, or treat me badly, whether they love Jesus or hate Him.

I’m talking here specificallly about close personal friendships… the people that one spends his or her free time with, that one gets together with or talks to for recreation, for fun. One of my friends is very much a fan of sports, and so I cannot imagine this person developing a close friendship with someone else who is not interested in sports as well. It’s not a matter of whether or not he would care about someone who didn’t, or whether or not he would be kind to them or try to help them if he could - for he would do all of this - but about whether he would develop an intimate connection with such a person. That’s the nature of friendships - they are based on common interests, ideals, and aspirations.

Jesus loved everyone under the sun - but he was not a cllose personal friend of them all. He was with John the Apostle. In some human way, they connected very deeply. Perhaps it was because John was a mystic and Jesus lived a life in which He enjoyed the beaitific vision at every moment.

I’m beginning to feel like one must either be a close personal friend with someone, or he must dislike and mistreat the person. Those are the two ideas I keep seeing opposed to one another.

Peace and God bless

 

[Lazerlike42]

**God works in strange ways. The Holy Spirit comes through even sinners. But I fail to understand exactly what you are attempting to share in your post. **

What I’m saying is, look, we are called to love everybody, but we aren’t friends with everybody - we are friends with a small group of people - and we are close friends with even fewer people - perhaps one or two. I provided Jesus as an example: He loved everyone, gave to everyone, treated everyone as one would treat a friend, yet there was some unique and special relationship He had with John the Apostle. They were close friends. Jesus was not a close friend of the man at the pool of Siloam, or the Samaritan woman at the well, or perhaps even John the Baptist. He loved all of these people, but was He a close friend of them?

Do you understand the difference between loving a person and being a close friend of theirs?

Peace and God bless