Should we be able to become CLOSE friends with the non Christ-centered?

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Hmm…this has been a very interesting conversation…There are a couple of things that come to my mind…First of all there are many saints who talk about friendships, and if I am not mistaken, Lazerlike you are referring to Spiritual friendships, which according to St.Francis De Sales, St.Jerome, and others have made it clear that truest and best friendships are those that lead each person to eternity. Which means they have to share the same faith and the same goal to holiness.

“According to the diversity of communications, friendship also differs, and the communications differ according to the variety of the goods that they communicate to each other” (Devout Life, p. 165) If what is communicated is evil, vain and frivolous, then the friendship is evil, vain and frivolous. For a true and genuine friendship to exist, something good has to be communicated. The higher and more noble this good is, the more noble the friendship will be. The best kind of friendship is the one in which “mutual and reciprocal communications relate to charity, devotion, and Christian perfection . . .” (Devout Life, p.170). This is what is known as a spiritual friendship."

This is pretty clear in St.Francis De Sale " Introduction to a Devout Life" …And there have been several saintly friendships in the past, such as the ones mentioned earlier( like Francis and Clare). Our goal in life is to follow as closely as possible the example of Christ and to get to heaven. True friendships are to be based upon this ideal, they are spiritual, and like everything spiritual, they are the most real. These are the ones that last forever and St Jerome said " A Friendship that can cease has never been real" .

We can have natural friendships with other but these, in the end, are based on superficial things and have no true groundings. It is our calling in life to pursue Christ and to imitate Him as best that we can. We can certainly be a friend to someone who is not of our faith, but never could thier be a true spiritual friendship.

Also as a note on the marriage thing. Marriage is a vocation and it is intended as a pathway to heaven just like any other vocation. The husband and wife are there to bring each other to Christ, and to holiness. Certainly one could live the married life with a non believer, but the Church,herself, has expressed concerns about this and requires certain things of couple who do not share the same faith. It is difficult when one of the spouses is not encouraging and helping the other to reach sanctity. Its just a reality. Sure there has been saints who have done it, like St.Rita or Elizabeth Leseur. But it is not the ideal or normal way…I mean a marriage needs to have that aspect of spiritual friendship for it to survive and thrive and be all that God intends it to be…
Anyhow these are just my thoughts after reading your posts…I mean sure you can have a friendship with people on a natural level…but that is not the truest and deepest sort…it is not even considered a real friendship by St.Francis de Sales…
 
I was having a discussion this evening with a friend about this. I am firmly of the belief that that we should not be able to become close friends with those who are not centered on Christ. Let me explain.

I said that one of the reasons I have no close friends is that Christ is so central to who I am as a person, that I cannot connect on that intimate a level with those for whom He is not also in that same position. Now I believe that one ought to be able to be friends with such persons, and that one ought to be able to interact socially, but to gain someone as a best friend who is not centered on Christ seems to me not to be something that ought to be possible. If Christ is so much a part of my very soul, then it would seem that I wouldn’t be able to make a new friend who didn’t care all that much, if at all, about Him.

I think you have a point in that our soul’s life is at stake. For one person there is a ministry where for another this may not be so. However I have a friend who keeps writing to me (txt) and he is homosexual or has a relationship with another male. I tell him when I don’t like what he says and in his bebo I found a beautiful note about Jesus. This shocked me and he knows I am christian and don’t mince words. He knows my God , Jesus tells that He came for the sinners not those saved, He tells us to be with them NOT as them. Jesus tells us to “love others the way he loves us”

I have given my heart to Jesus I no longer own it.
I asked Jesus for a job where I could glorify Him and I now work with a person who is jealous of every works I do but he is the boss this is not easy for me but Jesus has given me no more than I could take.
IF this person comes to God then the work is done If this is to change me and I allow it and ask God to help me to change and do then God’s will is done, eather way God reigns.
Godbless
 
I understand what the OP is trying to say. I’ve been friends with people who’ve had little or no faith. But I deluded myself about those friendships being close ones. They were very unsatisfactory, but I was just desperate for friendships.

Over the years I’ve learned that I can BE a friend without expecting much in return. As a result, there are quite a few people who consider me a friend, because they appreciate what they get from me – listening, support, love, etc. But I don’t consider them close friends. I offer them friendship because they need it. I believe that’s what Jesus did.

But I do need to be in contact with people who reinforce me in my faith, and whose values I share. It’s hard to walk the straight path in this world and I can’t do it alone.
 
Lazerlike,

I believe it is grace that will inspire you what to do, for each person’s walk and call is going to be different. I hear what you are trying to say. This came to mind immediately when I saw your message.
St. Teresa of Avila:
This Father began to lead me to greater perfection. He told me that I ought to leave nothing undone so as to become entirely pleasing to God, and he treated me with great skill, yet also very gently, for my soul was not at all strong, but very sensitive, especially as regards abandoning certain friendships which were not actually leading me to offend God. There was a great deal of affection beneath these and it seemed to me that if I abandoned them I should be sinning through ingratitude; so I asked him why it was necessary for me to be ungrateful if I was not offending God. He told me to commend the matter to God for a few days, and to recite the hymn Veni, Creator, and I should be enlightened as to which was the better thing to do.

So I spent the greater part of one whole day in prayer; and then, beseeching the Lord that He would help me to please Him in everything, I began the hymn. While I was reciting it, there came to me a transport so sudden that it almost carried me away: I could make no mistake about this, so clear was it. This was the first time that the Lord had granted me the favour of any kind of rapture. I heard these words: “I will have thee converse now, not with men, but with angels.” This simply amazed me, for my soul was greatly moved and the words were spoken to me in the depths of the spirit. For this reason they made me afraid, though on the other hand they brought me a great deal of comfort, which remained with me after the fear caused by the strangeness of the experience had vanished.

The words have come true: never since then have I been able to maintain firm friendship save with people who I believe love God and try to serve Him, nor have I derived comfort from any others or cherished any private affection for them. It has not been in my own power to do so; and it has made no difference if the people have been relatives or friends. Unless I know that a person loves God or practises prayer, it is a real cross to me to have to do with him. I really believe this is the absolute truth.
God bless you and guide you.
 
What I’m saying is, look, we are called to love everybody, but we aren’t friends with everybody - we are friends with a small group of people - and we are close friends with even fewer people - perhaps one or two. I provided Jesus as an example: He loved everyone, gave to everyone, treated everyone as one would treat a friend, yet there was some unique and special relationship He had with John the Apostle. They were close friends. Jesus was not a close friend of the man at the pool of Siloam, or the Samaritan woman at the well, or perhaps even John the Baptist. He loved all of these people, but was He a close friend of them?

Do you understand the difference between loving a person and being a close friend of theirs?

Peace and God bless 🙂
Hello. Let me ask this. Jesus loved all these people, but do you think they returned His love in the same measure? If they couldn’t, then their relationships were unequally loving. If those relationships couldn’t be ones of equal love, do you think Jesus stopped loving them? If your whole heart and being are centered on loving Christ will you have love left over for anyone else? Christ did, but can you as a human do the same?

Love, by its very nature is given in unequal measure when it is between humans and God. God always gives more. We weak humans give what we are capable of. And love/friendship between two humans is not equal. So even if you would find someone who feels they love God as you do, how can you be sure of the measure of their love? No one can ever love in the same measure as someone else. Human love is ephemeral and changing always. So the first thing we have to do is trust, trust that the other person is trying to love God as well as s/he can. So you have to trust yourself that you are loving God and the friend as well as you are able. Even if this friend is not as Christ centered as you, I am sure there would be many things and many levels of intimacy between you. There are many aspects of the human ability to be intimate. You could have a friend that is Christ centered. Another who is also Christ centered, but doesn’t have the desire to portray it overtly. Another whose main interest could be sports. Do you understand what I am saying? One person cannot supply all of another’s needs for intimacy and friendship. Perhaps I am talking in circles, but intimacy is a very complex and personal display of first of all vulnerability. And not all people are willing to take that risk.🙂
 
of course not, we should only associate with people of similar backgrounds, who think, talk, act and believe as we do, so we can evangelize each other.
 
Hello. Let me ask this. Jesus loved all these people, but do you think they returned His love in the same measure? If they couldn’t, then their relationships were unequally loving. If those relationships couldn’t be ones of equal love, do you think Jesus stopped loving them? If your whole heart and being are centered on loving Christ will you have love left over for anyone else? Christ did, but can you as a human do the same?

Love, by its very nature is given in unequal measure when it is between humans and God. God always gives more. We weak humans give what we are capable of. And love/friendship between two humans is not equal. So even if you would find someone who feels they love God as you do, how can you be sure of the measure of their love? No one can ever love in the same measure as someone else. Human love is ephemeral and changing always. So the first thing we have to do is trust, trust that the other person is trying to love God as well as s/he can. So you have to trust yourself that you are loving God and the friend as well as you are able. Even if this friend is not as Christ centered as you, I am sure there would be many things and many levels of intimacy between you. There are many aspects of the human ability to be intimate. You could have a friend that is Christ centered. Another who is also Christ centered, but doesn’t have the desire to portray it overtly. Another whose main interest could be sports. Do you understand what I am saying? One person cannot supply all of another’s needs for intimacy and friendship. Perhaps I am talking in circles, but intimacy is a very complex and personal display of first of all vulnerability. And not all people are willing to take that risk.🙂
Again, I really am not certain if folks understand the difference between loving someone and being their close friend. Just because I am not a close friend to someone, that doesn’t mean I do not love them or that I do not show them love. It means that I’m not their close friend, just like Jesus was not a close friend of any of the folks He healed, but He still loved them. Jesus loved everyone, but was close friends with John the Apostle. Francis of Assisi loved everyone, but was close friends with a few of the original brothers of the Friars Minor. Does this make sense?

I might happen to be friends with someone who only shares sports with me as a common interest, but if that is the only common interest, they are probably not going to be a close friend. If Christ is so important to me that I want Him in every last second of my life, I just don’t see how it ends up happening that somebody who does not care much about Him and I are simply going to end up spending enough time around one another to develop a close friendship. How does a guy who spends every waking moment watching sports, or anything else, end up spending enough time around a guy who doesn’t to develop something more than a casual friendship? :confused:

Peace and God bless
 
of course not, we should only associate with people of similar backgrounds, who think, talk, act and believe as we do, so we can evangelize each other.
Annie,

I’m not *talking *about associating. I’m talking about developing a close, intimate friendship - about becoming best friends. I associate with all sorts of people, and I love them all, but I am not close personal friends with every single one of them. I’m really, really perplexed about this… dichotomy that everyone is setting up that says that either I am close friends with a person or I don’t associate with them at all… I just don’t understand it at all!

I associate with and love to the best of my ability every sort of person there is and every single person I meet. That doesn’t mean I’m going to develop deep friendships with them all… :confused: :confused: :confused:

Peace and God bless
 
Personally, I think we can be Christ for those people who do not understand or have never understood who Christ is. For instance, your next door neighbors…or in-laws. You have many things in common but some that are not. However, by your example, prayer and even teachings, perhaps you will plant a seed a faith in them. The Holy Spirit does the rest. Pray on it. Don’t surrender your faith or compromise your faith in the process of maintaining a friendship. I don’t think that is necessary or even recommended. Stand up for your values if they are challenged, but you don’t have to do it in a confrontational way either.
 
Again, I really am not certain if folks understand the difference between loving someone and being their close friend.
I do understand the difference. As I posted earlier, I had a close friend who is atheist. We talked about everything of importance to us. That means that even though he was atheist, we talked frequently about God.

I wasn’t trying to “convert” him, he wasn’t tryng to “convert” me. We just shared thoughts. I frequently shared my priest’s homilies, and he ultimately told me those were his favorite conversations.

We talked about what was in our hearts. Not being Christ-centered didn’t mean he didn’t enjoy our conversations. He liked hearing different viewpoints. He loved hearing about my thoughts on God, my priest’s thoughts, and Catholicism.
 
I think I understand what you are trying to convey, you personally find it impossible to fathom having intimate friendships or marriage with someone who is not as God-centered as you are.

The world contains billions of people, I would not be surprised if someday you do in fact meet someone who has beliefs outside of your perception-and maybe that person will challenge and stimulate you to love and accept that/those person/s unconditionally.(I am not saying that you do not love those that you know now)

Jesus loved St.Peter unconditionally while St. Peter loved Jesus incompletely (at the time)and Jesus still loved Him. Jesus just had to work with St Peter a little more and yet He handed him the Keys to the Kingdom.

It is much easier to love someone who thinks as we do, our daily/personal crosses may include relationships with those that do not-
(co-workers, MIL, FIM, BIL, SIL, our spouses relatives-our children’s teacher-our children’s friends-the neighbors next door or down the street-the list is endless)
 
… to gain someone as a best friend who is not centered on Christ seems to me not to be something that ought to be possible. If Christ is so much a part of my very soul, then it would seem that I wouldnt be able to make a new friend who didn’t care all that much, if at all, about Him.
“… For if you love those who love you, what reward shall you have? Do not even the publicans do that? And if you salute your brethren only, what are you doing more than others? Do not even the Gentiles do that?” (Matthew 5:47)

While I understand your deep love for Our Lord, and your desire to share that joy, with fellow believers (and there’s nothing wrong with that)… but somehow… I would think that very love of Him… would propel your spirit to want to share Him, with those who do not know Him.

But how would you be able to share Him… if you only associate with those who are Christ-centered? You never know when the example you set, as a Christian believer… will make an impression on a non-believer. We may never know, until the day of our own judgment, before God… of a soul we may have converted… by our witness to Jesus Christ.

That is the very reason that the Apostles went about, evangelizing the early Jews and Gentiles. The very reason that St. Francis of Assisi went among the Muslims. The very reason, that todays Missionaries go to dangerous locations. To bring Jesus Christ to those who do not know Him.

So, respectfully… I disagree. God bless.
 
I have a best friend who happens to be a Liberal Democrat, pro-choice, Methodist. Meanwhile, I am the exact opposite … Conservative Republican, pro-life, Catholic.

I was once invited to a social function sponsored by my friend’s church. While there, the subject of politics arose at the table. I didn’t bring it up, but felt that if everyone ELSE was welcome to share their opinion, so was I. So I did. I stated that I would not vote for a particular candidate because of my pro-life position. You could have heard a pin drop. A sudden shocked silence fell. A Methodist female elder at the table who was in favor of a pro-choice candidate started taking me to task until she discovered that I was willing to continue politely defending my view and that I was not intimidated by her religious title of “elder.”

My best friend remains my best friend, despite the fact that I quite publicly went against each and every person at our table. A lesser person would have ended the friendship immediately.

That said, I can see where you’re coming from. I vaguely remember reading in a book on a saint, it could even have been Faustina’s Diary, about how a contemplative nun once had to tell another nun in the convent that she felt that their friendship was distracting her from God, and that God had to come first.

~~ the phoenix
 
“… For if you love those who love you, what reward shall you have? Do not even the publicans do that? And if you salute your brethren only, what are you doing more than others? Do not even the Gentiles do that?” (Matthew 5:47)

While I understand your deep love for Our Lord, and your desire to share that joy, with fellow believers (and there’s nothing wrong with that)… but somehow… I would think that very love of Him… would propel your spirit to want to share Him, with those who do not know Him.

But how would you be able to share Him… if you only associate with those who are Christ-centered? You never know when the example you set, as a Christian believer… will make an impression on a non-believer. We may never know, until the day of our own judgment, before God… of a soul we may have converted… by our witness to Jesus Christ.

That is the very reason that the Apostles went about, evangelizing the early Jews and Gentiles. The very reason that St. Francis of Assisi went among the Muslims. The very reason, that todays Missionaries go to dangerous locations. To bring Jesus Christ to those who do not know Him.

So, respectfully… I disagree. God bless.
MarieVeronica,

First, and above all foremost: I’m not upset with you, intending to convey a harsh tone, or any other such thing in this post. I am going to be very strong in what I say, but this is only because the content of your post illustrates very well a major problem I am having in this thread right now. There is nothing personal 🙂

So… Your post exemplifies 1000% the thing that is simply maddening me about this thread. The viewpoint that you are disagreeing with is NOTHING REMOTELY CLOSE to anything I have said. I haven’t said anything about not associating with folks of lesser or no faith, not sharing my faith with those people, and so forth.

I more than galdly would do all of these things, and I have explicitly rejected any opposition to doing so at least a dozen times in this thread.

I am referring only to the formation of close friendships and whether or not it is emotionally/psychologically/spiritually possible between a person of deep faith and one of little faith. Some, like ThePhoenix, have attempted to provide examples of situations where this sort of thing has happened.

Nearly everybody that replies to me presents me as though I don’t want to talk to, or associate with, or interact with anyone other than saintly people. That’s the farthest thing from the truth. I’m just having a very hard time wrapping my mind around the idea of someone with a very deep faith being able to connect in a best friend sort of a way with someone who doesn’t. I have thought about this a lot today, and I intend to post what I hope is a very well articulated explanation of what I am having trouble with.

Peace and God bless 🙂
 
MarieVeronica,

First, and above all foremost: I’m not upset with you, intending to convey a harsh tone, or any other such thing in this post. I am going to be very strong in what I say, but this is only because the content of your post illustrates very well a major problem I am having in this thread right now. There is nothing personal 🙂

So… Your post exemplifies 1000% the thing that is simply maddening me about this thread. The viewpoint that you are disagreeing with is NOTHING REMOTELY CLOSE to anything I have said. I haven’t said anything about not associating with folks of lesser or no faith, not sharing my faith with those people, and so forth.

I more than galdly would do all of these things, and I have explicitly rejected any opposition to doing so at least a dozen times in this thread.

I am referring only to the formation of close friendships and whether or not it is emotionally/psychologically/spiritually possible between a person of deep faith and one of little faith. Some, like ThePhoenix, have attempted to provide examples of situations where this sort of thing has happened.

Nearly everybody that replies to me presents me as though I don’t want to talk to, or associate with, or interact with anyone other than saintly people. That’s the farthest thing from the truth. I’m just having a very hard time wrapping my mind around the idea of someone with a very deep faith being able to connect in a best friend sort of a way with someone who doesn’t. I have thought about this a lot today, and I intend to post what I hope is a very well articulated explanation of what I am having trouble with.

Peace and God bless 🙂
I’m sorry if I misunderstood your meaning, “LL”. I guess I am having difficulty understanding your difficulty. Please forgive me. I was truly, trying to help. I will exit this thread, and leave it to smarter people. God bless. 🙂
 
I’m sorry if I misunderstood your meaning, “LL”. I guess I am having difficulty understanding your difficulty. Please forgive me. I was truly, trying to help. I will exit this thread, and leave it to smarter people. God bless. 🙂
No no no, that’s ok. I think that part of the problem is the way I worded the poll question and the thread itself, which colors the way everyone reads everything else. In any case, I would welcome someone here with the humility to say that she may have misunderstood something another said. 🙂

And as I said, the tone of that post, the big letters and all, was not directed at you. It was directed at the fact that that particular misunderstanding is one that almost everyone else that’s posted here has had, and so I wanted to make sure people noticed it, because for whatever reason it seems like nobody has noticed it any of the other times I’ve said it. 😛

Peace and God bless, and thanks much for trying to help - and doing so with such a kind tone as well! 🙂
 
No no no, that’s ok. I think that part of the problem is the way I worded the poll question and the thread itself, which colors the way everyone reads everything else. In any case, I would welcome someone here with the humility to say that she may have misunderstood something another said. 🙂

And as I said, the tone of that post, the big letters and all, was not directed at you. It was directed at the fact that that particular misunderstanding is one that almost everyone else that’s posted here has had, and so I wanted to make sure people noticed it, because for whatever reason it seems like nobody has noticed it any of the other times I’ve said it. 😛

Peace and God bless, and thanks much for trying to help - and doing so with such a kind tone as well! 🙂
God bless :hug1: I hope you get the answer to your question.
 
We should be able to become close friends with anyone. Everybody please read 1 Cor 5:9-13
 
Again, I really am not certain if folks understand the difference between loving someone and being their close friend. Just because I am not a close friend to someone, that doesn’t mean I do not love them or that I do not show them love. It means that I’m not their close friend, just like Jesus was not a close friend of any of the folks He healed, but He still loved them. Jesus loved everyone, but was close friends with John the Apostle. Francis of Assisi loved everyone, but was close friends with a few of the original brothers of the Friars Minor. Does this make sense?

I might happen to be friends with someone who only shares sports with me as a common interest, but if that is the only common interest, they are probably not going to be a close friend. If Christ is so important to me that I want Him in every last second of my life, I just don’t see how it ends up happening that somebody who does not care much about Him and I are simply going to end up spending enough time around one another to develop a close friendship. How does a guy who spends every waking moment watching sports, or anything else, end up spending enough time around a guy who doesn’t to develop something more than a casual friendship? :confused:

Peace and God bless
Laser, this thread reminds me so much of your thread yesterday wherein you rejected offerings (almost from one and all) as you sought to find new means of expresiion in reference to the the interview process of seminaries. Why on earth do you insist nobody understand what you mean when it’s clear that most posters DO understand exactly what you mean? You’re saying that a special spiritual friendship blossoms unusually between two people and that can contribute their mutual holiness. YES. YES. YES. All agree - as happened between Francis of Assisi and Clare, Francis de Sales and Jane Frances, etc…

However these friendships are rare and special blessings; note the aforenamed were founders/foundresses who built new works together. The idea that the only friendships available to us are of these types is “out there” in the world of unreality.

The friendships that are the heart of our lives are to built upon the foundation of family intimacy. Jesus is our BROTHER. To John, he was a close friend as an older brother would be; how lovely for both of them. Yet that friendship, that special love had NOTHING to do with the needs of Jesus Christ. Presenting that relationship as a model of close friendship (without mentioning the heart of family love) seems to me to be horrific.

My dearest friend on a sprirtual field of intimacy was my own mother. My father comes a close second. My brothers, sister and two Protestant sisters-in-law rank too. My deceased Jewish mother-in-law was one of my closest, dearest fronds too. WHY? Both of us loved God above all.

My dearest friends are as family to me.
It’s NOT what they can give me.
It’s who we are to one another.
Intimacy of the heart begins with loving GOD.
 
Thanks for your kind tone.Maybe people misunderstand my question.* When I say “should,” I don’t mean ought it to be allowed.* I mean to ask whether it is something that is really possible to happen.* Certainly, we ought to give ouf ourselves as best we can to others, be they Catholic, Protestant, believer, friend, or enemy.* We should share of ourselves, and in Christ doing so, these people became Christ centered - the apostles did, in this way.* Yet even as Christ did this, He had a close friend in John the Evangelist, for example, who was his friend - something… somehow different from just a person He was reaching out to, or teaching.* John was someone whom on a human level, Jesus enjoyed the company of.* I mean, taking God completely out of it, how do people become close friends?* They have similar interests, don’t they?* Or similar aspirations, or other such things?* When I was a teenager, my best friend was a kid who was into a lot of the same things I was.* That’s why we were friends, and as a result of being into the same things like that, we spent a lot of time together, and so we became close and we began to trust one another and to share intimate feelings and thoughts.* So, if the thing I spend not part of my time, or most of my time - like with my teenage best friend - on, but all of my time, is something that another person spends hardly any time on, how, on a purely human level, would I ever develop a close friendship with that person?* If was some guy who spent every free moment watching sports, how would it ever happen for me to develop a close friendship with a guy who didn’t like sports at all?* Does that make more sense??:confused:Peace and God bless:)
**The answer is Yes, you should be able to become close, intimate, best friends with those who are not Christ centered. ** (Assuming the person has the skills necessary to develop a close friendship.)

I think developing close intimate relationships with people has more to do with your personality than anything else.*

Take me for example.* A couple years ago I found myself to be asked to be the maid of honor in two weddings and a brides maid in a third.* I accepted, and felt honored.* I was told by all three of them on separate occastions that they felt that out of everyone they knew I was their best friend, the one the shared the most with, the one who they were intellectually intimate with.* One of these people was a Jehovah’s Witness and the other was an Ex-Jehovah’s Witness who wasn’t sure about even the existance of God.* The third was my cousin, raised Catholic but not practicing at all.* I am not even sure what she believes.*

The truth is that I have a very intimate relationship wiht Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit.* In fact my friends and family believe that I may become and nun, of which, I am considering.* All that being said, I did develop an intimate friendship with each of these people that was and is to this day extremely fruitful.* We talk about everything from God, to Jesus and Politics.* Our love for eachother allows us to be ourselves and respect eachothers beliefs.* I love them and pray for them everyday.*

Through their questions I was moved to understand my own religion and relationship with Christ on an intellectual level that caused me to grow ever deeper in a spiritual level.* I have learned more about being Catholic and loving Jesus than I ever would have done otherwise.* I feel I understand Jesus in a new way as well.* He also sought out friendships with those who didn’t believe in him.*

Does that answer your question?

Sarah
 
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