Should we bring back vergers?

[Anrakyr]

Yeah, that’ll work

All the good cops that outnumber the bad?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Calling entire classes of people “Bad” is not Christlike in the least.

Bye bye.

 

[Anrakyr]

Calling entire classes of people “Bad” is not Christlike in the least.

Bye bye.

I’m Norse.

No, I want them too protest.

 

[EmilyAlexandra]

Most Cathedrals (esp in the cities) have security guards anytime the bishop is celebrating Mass.

I know it’s like that in Philadelphia. Everytime the Archbishop celebrates Mass, there are uniformed security guards in the Nave

Is this a uniquely American phenomenon? Are American bishops bigger targets for terrorists or whoever else would wish to do them harm? I have been to quite a few services in England where an Anglican bishop or archbishop has been leading the service (including on one occasion Desmond Tutu, who has a pretty high public profile), and I have seen no security. Nor do I think this is specific to Anglicans. I’ve also been to a service where the cardinal archbishop of Westminster was in attendance (robed and seated in the sanctuary), and there was zero security for him or anyone else. The only time I have seen security at a church service in the UK has been when the Queen, foreign heads of state, etc have been in attendance. I used to see the local Greek Orthodox bishop doing his shopping in Sainsbury’s.

In the Church of England the virgers are actually more like church caretakers who prepare and often take part in the mass in some way, and almost always leads processions.

Yes, and, as you doubtless know, the role depends to some extent on the size and wealth of the establishment. At Westminster Abbey, the role of the vergers seems to be a combination of ceremonial, tour guiding, and light administration. Across the river at Southwark Cathedral, you might see a verger on his hands and knees polishing the parquet floor. I’ve met a couple of vergers who turned out to have degrees in theology.

you mentioned three officers restraining one person–you and I get it, but everyone else are often up in arms–‘there’s no way it was necessary for three officers to hold down one person!’ Uh, yep, sometimes that is what it takes.

I’m not sure whether you are actually a police officer yourself, so forgive me if you know this already. Apparently, the more officers there are to restrain a suspect, the safer it is for the suspect. I think the reasoning is that if someone is restrained by one officer, they’ll struggle and injure themselves, whereas if someone is being held down by several officers, so they are completely overwhelmed, the risk of injury is actually very small.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Depends, wouldn’t it? In some churches the rail is on a step. The rail in some churches is about chest high to an adult. It wouldn’t stop an athletic intruder, but it would slow him down.

Reminds me. When I was an altar boy back in the days when there were altar boys, we were taught, among other things, that historically “acolytes” were to guard the priest and the Blessed Sacrament during the catacomb days, and although times had changed, it was still part of our duty to intercept any “bad guys”. Being a kid and all, and not being averse to imagined heroics, I would eye the congregation during the sermon for any suspicious moves. There was one fellow to whom I paid particular attention because he had a doubtful look to him. But he never did attack.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Is this a uniquely American phenomenon? Are American bishops bigger targets for terrorists or whoever else would wish to do them harm?

Please see post I made earlier in the thread regarding Cathedrals and the types of people who may be in them, especially at large Masses.

I don’t think this is uniquely American and the danger is not solely to the bishop, it is to everybody in attendance. The Bishop celebrating Mass tends to draw a larger crowd, and particularly draws those who wish to stage some kind of a protest at the Mass. To some extent the Bishop may also be more of a target than the much lesser known rector or other priests.

The only difference between US and some other countries is that some countries would not have armed security, but I’m sure they have some type of security even if not armed.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Is this a uniquely American phenomenon? Are American bishops bigger targets for terrorists or whoever else would wish to do them harm?

Possibly. It may be difficult for many to realize and accept just how hostile some of the leftist types are in this country toward the Catholic Church. They vary from the merely verbally and legislatively hostile like some of our presidential and vice presidential candidates past and president, to the physically aggressive.

 

[EmilyAlexandra]

Thanks, I only got to that post as I scrolled my way down. To be honest, that does not seem to be a factor in churches I am familiar with. One routinely finds homeless people sleeping in St Martin-in-the-Fields in Trafalgar Square, but they have no security.

Back in 1997, there was a famous protest by gay activists at Southwark Cathedral at a service being attended by 60 bishops, including all the primates of the Anglican Communion. The accounts suggest it was quite peaceful. The protestors even wore suits and ties. Apparently they prayed for 5 minutes, then someone made a brief speech, and they walked out of their own accord. There is also an Anglican priest who protests against such things as the ordination of women. But he doesn’t have to be dragged out by security guards. He just makes his point and then walks off. He once heckled the archbishop of York (he did address him as “Your Grace”, which was a nice touch), and the archbishop, a former judge on the High Court of Uganda, dismissed him pretty succinctly. It may be that there have been violent protests, but I am not aware of them. In general, it seems that once people have been allowed to say their piece, they are quite happy to go peacefully.

It may be difficult for many to realize and accept just how hostile some of the leftist types are in this country toward the Catholic Church.

I see. I had been assuming the threat was from Islamists.

 

[Fauken]

I see. I had been assuming the threat was from Islamists.

Unfortunately not. The United States has had a long history of anti-Catholicism. While it never reached the same pitch as it did in places like England, we still had groups like the Know-Nothings, and the KKK. Even in the 1960’s when John F. Kennedy was running for President, there was concern that his Catholicism would put America under Rome.

 

[Fauken]

Agreed. We also saw it with Cavanagh and his membership in the Knights of Columbus.

May the dogma flow strongly though them!

 

[Fauken]

Ah, that’s it! That’s the right quote!

 

[Tis_Bearself]

The last protest I witnessed in a US church was at an Easter Sunday televised Mass in St. Patrick’s Cathedral in NYC a few years ago when somebody decided to get up and start screaming about gay rights in the middle of the Mass. He was swiftly removed. You also never know whether they’re going to do something beyond just yelling.

I’m sure they have many more such incidents that I don’t happen to be watching when they happen. At the large holiday Masses at St. Pat’s there are so many police around the church, for protection of those in the church, those waiting in line to get into the church, and to spot possible threats, you’d think it was a policemen’s ball. Even something like when they displayed relics of St. Padre Pio and had a line down several blocks to get in, there were cops all around the church. New York of course is extra careful since 9/11. (The irony of the Padre Pio business was that there is a Franciscan church a little distance away by the train station that has first class relics of him all the time. Most of the people waiting in line for St. Pat’s probably didn’t know that.)

 

[Anrakyr]

I said protest. Hold your chief responsible.

As a radical fascist communist anarchist, (only one of those are true but I been called worse) I’ve seen all manner of people on the left. Only the angriest ever talk about violence. Normally because they are so tired of being stomped on they truly think there is no other way.

Most others when violence is brought up immediately either kick or remind offenders that violence only strengthens the narrative of the other side. Even if violence may be justified to many giving ammunition to right-wing anything only serves to hurt the cause.

So in closing do violent radical anything exist? sure, but the numbers are not warranted for a security force for a priest.

A Bishop? Cardinal? Maybe.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

That wouldn’t happen in ten thousand years.

Depends on how widespread it is. I would bet money that if it were implemented over an area at least as big as the average US Diocese on the first Sunday of Advent, it would have happened somewhere in that area by Christmas.

“What to do when someone desecrates, or threatens to desecrate, the Eucharist they have just received” would hardly seem just cause for inflicting physical pain. The verger could calmly approach the person and say “either receive It reverently, or give It back to me”, and then, only then, if “things started getting real”, might appropriate physical force be warranted. It would be in response to the person’s reaction, not for treating the Eucharist inappropriately.

I have heard that some callow, ignorant, or just plain clueless people will try to keep the Host as a souvenir, much as they might keep blessed palms. If they are not Catholic, or are very poorly catechized Catholics, they can hardly be accused of willful sacrilege. (But it would behoove the verger to approach them and gently remind them of What they have just received.)

 

[whatistrue]

“What to do when someone desecrates, or threatens to desecrate, the Eucharist they have just received” would hardly seem just cause for inflicting physical pain.

I am not talking about what should be, but about what real people (even people who actually know better) do even though they shouldn’t.

 

[Polak]

I have been to quite a few services in England where an Anglican bishop or archbishop has been leading the service (including on one occasion Desmond Tutu, who has a pretty high public profile), and I have seen no security. Nor do I think this is specific to Anglicans. I’ve also been to a service where the cardinal archbishop of Westminster was in attendance (robed and seated in the sanctuary), and there was zero security for him or anyone else. The only time I have seen security at a church service in the UK has been when the Queen, foreign heads of state, etc have been in attendance.

I know some cathedrals in London have security. If you walk into Westminster Cathedral at any time its open, even when it’s quiet and there is no service, you’ll see a security guard in there standing near the entrance somewhere.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I see. I had been assuming the threat was from Islamists.

There can be more than one.

At this point in time and in the U.S., progressives have made some moves against the Church, like Obama’s HHS Mandate requiring Catholic charities to provide their workers with abortifacients. Obama is no fool. He knew that would be against the conscience of many charities, including the Little Sisters of the Poor, but he did it anyway. Kind of like insisting that Jews or Muslims eat pork.

 

[phil19034]

Is this a uniquely American phenomenon? Are American bishops bigger targets for terrorists or whoever else would wish to do them harm? I have been to quite a few services in England where an Anglican bishop or archbishop has been leading the service (including on one occasion Desmond Tutu, who has a pretty high public profile), and I have seen no security.

I don’t think this is uniquely American.

I also don’t think every single small diocese has to worry about this. But many of the larger dioceses with Archbishops and Cardinals do.

For example, every single year during the Chrism Mass In Philly, a pro women priests protest takes place outside the Cathedral from before the mass starts, during the mass, and after the mass.

At the Christmas Midnight Mass a couple years ago, someone started a protest inside the Mass during the consecration. The Archbishop was supposed to be there, but was sick.

Even though a minority of Americans are Catholics, Catholicism is the single largest denomination in the US. Catholics (orthodox and heterodox combined) also have a statistically large percentage of people in power compared to the population.

Therefore, the Church is a target for leftists protestors and for Protestant fundamentalists.

If one is going to violently protest Catholics, attacking the Cathedral when the bishop is present is strategic target.

 

[Cruciferi]

No such thing.

Sorry but that’s rude, uncharitable, and frankly inappropriate.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Therefore, the Church is a target for leftists protestors and for Protestant fundamentalists.

I think a lot of Fundamentalists have come to realize the Catholic Church is all that stands between them and the strong arm of a resolutely secular state that is not especially friendly toward strongly-held religions. I live in a sea of Fundamentalists and Evangelicals, and I have heard them admit that a number of times.