Should we even have EMHC's?

[Brendan]

There has been much dispute over this.

Much dispute over what?

If you are refering to the use of EMHC’s, or the regular offering of both species at Mass, I’ll easily grant that those are disputed points.

If you are refering to the use of grape juice vs. wine? Sorry, the Vatican has made that one is a clear as a bell.

Many alcholic priests will not consume any alchohol, and this is why they have Emhc at every Mass.

I certainly will not judge this situation. I’m sure the Bishop is aware.

Lux

The priest is required to consume BOTH spieces at Mass. Not just as a matter of rubrics, but as a matter of the Sacrificial nature of the Mass. If the priest does not consume the species, then there is no Sacrifice. No Sacrifice, then no Mass.

If they use something other than wine during the consecration, then it isn’t even a Mass at all.

Trying to consecrate grape juice is no different than trying to consecrate flour instead of bread. It’s not the correct matter, and therefore, it does not become the Eucharist.

Are you really trying to say that the Bishop is aware if invalid Masses and does nothing???

 

[Brenda_V]

I do believe that there are Parishes where there is no need but mine is like many others with over 1000 people per Mass attending one of eight Sunday Masses. We have three Priests available to us but two of the eight Masses run concurrently making only one other Priest available. We also have several Deacons. We only use a maximum of 5 EMHC’s at the main Church and 1 at the mission on any given Sunday or Holy Day Mass. Our EMHCs also take Communion to the homebound/nursing homes freeing the Priests for the more important ability to give Extreme Unction/Last Rites to those who are actually dying and not just homebound.

Having Instituted Acolytes is not even something I have ever thought of so if whoever mentioned it could give more details into what this is perhaps I could agree with you on that . You see I have heard about it but have never gone into detail about it (seems to me the little I know about it would eliminate the need for Altar Servers so the argument about whether girls should be or not would be eliminated too).

Brenda V.

 

[Catholic90]

Actually, Cesar is quite correct. Only a priest or deacon SHOULD be giving out Commuion, but certain lay people are ALLOWED to do it.

Note the difference.

If you are going to try and correct people, please get your terminology correct first.

You can get caught up in your own little semantics world if you want to. I’m not getting sucked in.

People like you amaze me (and not in a good way).

Your life must be pretty darn good if that is all you have to worry about.

 

[Brendan]

Our EMHCs also take Communion to the homebound/nursing homes freeing the Priests for the more important ability to give Extreme Unction/Last Rites to those who are actually dying and not just homebound.

What do the Deacons do? They do not need to be available to provide Last Rites, as they cannot Minister that Sacrament. In our parish, each Sunday after the 1:00pm Mass, the Deacon picks up a list of the parish sick and homebound from the parish office and brings Communion to them.

I’m studying for the Diaconate myself and have accompanied the Deacon on these visits, as part of my learning about the role of a Deacon.

 

[Brendan]

You can get caught up in your own little semantics world if you want to. I’m not getting sucked in.

People like you amaze me (and not in a good way).

Your life must be pretty darn good if that is all you have to worry about.

Semantics are very important in Theology and in Canon Law (and other disciplines of course). If one is going to discuss them, one should understand what is being said by each party and what claims are being made, correct?

Ceasar didn’t say that EMCH’s weren’t ALLOWED to Communicate the Sacrament, but rather that they SHOULDN"T do it apart from ‘true necessity’ ( to quote R.S.) . If you disagree with either Ceasar or the Vatican on this point, feel free to make your case.

And yes, life is pretty darn good. It should be, as God is the source of it all.

 

[Sir_Knight]

What do the Deacons do?

Our deacons run the RCIA program, visit those in the hospital (EMHC visit the homebound), chair the pro-life group, bible study group, etc.;

 

[Brendan]

Our deacons run the RCIA program, visit those in the hospital (EMHC visit the homebound), chair the pro-life group, bible study group, etc.;

Ah, our Deacons bring the Eucharist to all the sick and homebound, whether at home or in the hospital.

They also involved in the other ministries you mentioned ( our pastor runs the RCIA, though)

Our Deacon just ran a great bible study on Revelation, and had a study of Vertitas Splendor too.

 

[HenryV]

Not according to the Vatican, who has more authority that you do.

The arrogance and hautiness of some people is amazing.

If you would care to read Sacramentum Caritatis, the opinion stated by Caesar is the opinion of the Church.

 

[scylla]

I do believe that there are Parishes where there is no need but mine is like many others with over 1000 people per Mass attending one of eight Sunday Masses. We have three Priests available to us but two of the eight Masses run concurrently making only one other Priest available. We also have several Deacons. We only use a maximum of 5 EMHC’s at the main Church and 1 at the mission on any given Sunday or Holy Day Mass. Our EMHCs also take Communion to the homebound/nursing homes freeing the Priests for the more important ability to give Extreme Unction/Last Rites to those who are actually dying and not just homebound.

Having Instituted Acolytes is not even something I have ever thought of so if whoever mentioned it could give more details into what this is perhaps I could agree with you on that . You see I have heard about it but have never gone into detail about it (seems to me the little I know about it would eliminate the need for Altar Servers so the argument about whether girls should be or not would be eliminated too).

Brenda V.

Instituted Acolytes are the solution and what is appropriate. They effectively have been eliminated as most dioceses ignore the appointment of them and therefore skip over the position and move straight to EMHC’s.
This is the politically correct thing for them to do so as to avoid upsetting the women who would object to men only serving in a position such as this.
Most Catholics seem to be unaware of this as it is ignored and not taught, but it is the solution at least temporarily until vocations are not discouraged anymore. When this anti-clericalism dies down and we start to appreciate the clergy and more Priests\Deacons are ordained.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Catholic90]

If you would care to read Sacramentum Caritatis, the opinion stated by Caesar is the opinion of the Church.

EMHC are allowed according to the church. Our priests have agreed, our bishop agrees, and our archbishop agrees.

That is good enough for me. Who am I to say I know more than these educated for years in this stuff? That is like a patient saying to a doctor, “I know you’ve been to medical school and did many years of training and have lots of experience, but based on this website I read, I think I know more than you do.”

No wonder people become disillusioned and disgusted with the church. It is because of haughty, arrogant holier-than-thous who think that they know it all. They lose the heart of law because they are so busy following the letter of the law. Even Jesus said that to the Pharisees. Sure, they followed every law down to the letter. They were perfect in that regard. But they missed the heart of the law. Jesus rebuked them for that.

 

[Brendan]

EMHC are allowed according to the church. Our priests have agreed, our bishop agrees, and our archbishop agrees.

Yes, and we agree too. Under certain conditions, EMHC’s are allowed to Commicate the Sacrament. No one is doubting that.

The Church also says that such use should be restricted to times of ‘true necessity’ and should never be done if there are sufficent Ordinary Ministers to accomplish the task in a reasonable time.

We agree to that as well.

They lose the heart of law because they are so busy following the letter of the law. Even Jesus said that to the Pharisees. Sure, they followed every law down to the letter. They were perfect in that regard. But they missed the heart of the law. Jesus rebuked them for that.

What is the ‘heart’ of the this ‘law’? How does it differ from the ‘letter’ of the law that is given by the Church?

Could you describe in detail so that we could have a deeper understanding of your position?

 

[lak611]

Instituted Acolytes are the solution and what is appropriate. They effectively have been eliminated as most dioceses ignore the appointment of them and therefore skip over the position and move straight to EMHC’s.
This is the politically correct thing for them to do so as to avoid upsetting the women who would object to men only serving in a position such as this.
Most Catholics seem to be unaware of this as it is ignored and not taught, but it is the solution at least temporarily until vocations are not discouraged anymore. When this anti-clericalism dies down and we start to appreciate the clergy and more Priests\Deacons are ordained.

God Bless
Scylla

Is the instituted Acolyte a lifetime position (if a man does not intend to become a deacon or priest)? If a man no longer wishes to be an Acolyte, is he allowed to quit?

 

[Brendan]

Is the instituted Acolyte a lifetime position (if a man does not intend to become a deacon or priest)? If a man no longer wishes to be an Acolyte, is he allowed to quit?

It is a permanent ministry by nature, but, unlike Holy Orderes, there is no ontological change, so yes the person may leave the ministry.

Such a departure requires the approval of the Diocesan Bishop, the man could not just decide to give up the ministry on his own.

 

[Sr_Sally]

What do the Deacons do? They do not need to be available to provide Last Rites, as they cannot Minister that Sacrament. In our parish, each Sunday after the 1:00pm Mass, the Deacon picks up a list of the parish sick and homebound from the parish office and brings Communion to them.

I’m studying for the Diaconate myself and have accompanied the Deacon on these visits, as part of my learning about the role of a Deacon.

I am very glad to hear that you are studying for the diaconate! Can I ask you a question about wages and whether you are allowed to keep your ‘regular’ job? I live in a very expensive area. Our deacon is retired from a previous career, but I do not know how a younger man with a family would be able to afford to live in this area soley on wages similar to what our priests receive. I believe that in this area that is one of the reasons for a lack of deacons or acolytes to be EMs. As others have said in our very large parish I don’t see how all the homebound would receive weekly communion without that help of EMHCs. We do not receive the Eucharist in both forms, but still communion takes a long time with no more than 4 EMHCs on a Sunday.

 

[scylla]

EMHC’s are allowed but there is a better solution and we should encourage the better solution of having more Priests, Deacons and instituted Acolytes.

Too often our poor Bishops are overworked and really do not know what is going on at the parish level. They delegate then to committees in their dioceses who sometimes allow for gross abuses. If no one says anything, then we are not helping out the Bishop make sure things are done right. Abusing the liturgy is disrespectful to God and placing man above God. This is more like the Pharisees than trying to correct abuses.

We should all try and help our Bishops in their jobs and support them and the Priests.

Scylla

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

There has been much dispute over this. Many alcholic priests will not consume any alchohol, and this is why they have Emhc at every Mass.

I certainly will not judge this situation. I’m sure the Bishop is aware.

Lux

I
t’s very clear and specific that any priest who cannot consume even in the smallest amount either the Blood of Christ or the Body of Christ CANNOT celebrate Mass as the Main celebrant or the sole celebrant. He may ONLY celebrate Mass as a concelebrant. The Mass is incomplete if the main celebrant does not receive both forms.

 

[Brendan]

I am very glad to hear that you are studying for the diaconate!
Can I ask you a question about wages and whether you are allowed to keep your ‘regular’ job?

A Deacon is an unpaid position in a parish. A man becomes a Deacon simply because the Holy Spirit calls him to Holy Orders. Not only are you allowed to keep your secular job, you are expected to do so.

In fact, that is one of the distinguishing functions of the ‘permanent’ diaconate, it is a way for the clergy to make their presence available in the workplace.

I live in a very expensive area. Our deacon is retired from a previous career, but I do not know how a younger man with a family would be able to afford to live in this area soley on wages similar to what our priests receive.

It isn’t so much that we will live off ‘deacon’ wages, I wouldn’t. Some diocese actively discourage younger men from seeking Holy Orders, as it requries more family\work\ministry balance than a retired man would experience. I’ve got 5 kids (right now) aged 9 years - 9 months old.

There are additional benefits, for example, when I accompained the Deacon on home visits, I usually brought my kids, and that really brighted the day of the elderly parishioners.

As the kids get older, and after I’m ordained, I plan on leveraging my ‘built in workforce’ on service ministries, such as packing food for the poor.

 

[lak611]

It is a permanent ministry by nature, but, unlike Holy Orderes, there is no ontological change, so yes the person may leave the ministry.

Such a departure requires the approval of the Diocesan Bishop, the man could not just decide to give up the ministry on his own.

That’s what I thought. Since that is the case, it would probably be easier to get men to serve as EMHC’s, since there is no permanence to being an EMHC, and the men could quit at any time for whatever reason. Most men who are married and wish to serve in a permanent ministry would probably choose to be ordained as deacons.

 

[Brendan]

Most men who are married and wish to serve in a permanent ministry would probably choose to be ordained as deacons.

Not necessarily. The call to Holy Orders does not originate with the man himself, but with the Holy Spirit. One does not ‘choose’ to be a priest or a deacon, but one accepts what the Spirit has chosen.

There are many permanent ministries in the Church, such as Consecrated Viriginity or Consecrated Widow(er)hood. These too are permanent, and involve an acceptance of a call.

The diocese that DO install men to this ministry apart from studies towards Orders do find sufficent men called, and called seperatley from the Diaconate.

But this digresses from the thread topic. We could discuss further in the Vocations forum if you want.

 

[Sure]

Extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion are to be used when, without them, there would be an undue burden. Unfortunately, many parishes misuse them in having too many at every Mass no matter the attendance.

My parish is one that actually uses them appropriately. Our Sunday Masses have around 800 to 1000 people and we have one priest. If he were to distribute Communion on his own at a rate of one communicant every 5 seconds (a pretty quick pace to maintain), Communion alone would take about 1 hour and 15 minutes. So, we use EMHC’s to distribute under 1 species and Communion takes about 10-15 minutes.

It seems reasonable to me that there should be 1 person distributing for every 150 communicants. That way, the distribution and purification of vessals should take around 20 minutes and Mass around 1 hour 10 minutes to 1 hour 20 minutes.