Should we pray for the non-elect?

  • Thread starter Thread starter abdulmasih
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
abdulmasih said:
I had an enemy in high school. If any human being were the son of the evil one, he would be it. He was proud, selfish, unimaginably cruel and inhumane. He hassled me every other day and insulted my race (I’m a Chinese Jew). I need to know: is there any reason for praying for his salvation? By his very nature I could see he’s non-elect and I also could discern that he would likely never change. Your opinions are welcome.
Click to expand...
I could imagine being a Chinese Jew would be tough in Indonesia. I suppose the other person was Moslem?

Unfortunately Christ’s injunction on forgiveness is terribly blunt. If you don’t forgive your enemies, God won’t forgive you.

I had a very cruel father. I’m pretty sure he’s in hell, due to the fact he appeared in my room the night he died. I still remember the terrifying departing scream, just before he disappeared again. It was also quite clear something was coming for him.

So whether I forgive him or not, I don’t think it will make much difference to his situation. But it will affect me. I find it hard to forgive him as he deliberately destroyed my confidence, and did so for a long time.

However like you, I’m under the same injunction to forgive him, and pray for him, as you are with your past enemy. Whether he repents or not is not your concern. That’s his choice, and not your problem.

Your problem is to get to the state where you can forgive him and pray for him and then move on.

As to whether God “loves” flies, mosquitoes and worms in one of your other posts, I don’t know. They’ve got a role to play in His creation, even if it is an unlovely one. The maggots help to break down rotting food, worms aerate the soil, and even mosquitoes form part of the diet of other animals eg. larva eating fish.

They seem to have what might be called a utilitarian role. He probably “loves” them insofar as they fit into His overall plan, just as a human car mechanic might swear by a certain brand of spark plug, and have a real fondness for them. But he’ll also throw a used spark plug in the bin when it’s done its job. He might like Brand X spark plugs, and even have affection for them, but it will be a utilitarian “love”.

God certainly didn’t grant them long lives -

orkin.com/flies/how-long-do-flies-live/
The adult housefly can live up to one month in the wild. The fruit fly also lives for approximately 30 days after reaching adulthood.
Click to expand...
 
MtnDwellar said:
So then for the purpose of this thread, the OP is asking whether or not we should pray for those who are members of a group whose members cannot be identified by others or even by themselves.

No wonder I was confused.

In that case, my answer is definitely that we should pray for those whom we cannot identify as being members of a group whose membership is not identifiable.
Click to expand...
http://a2.files.biography.com/image...h_300,q_80,w_300/MTE5NTU2MzE2MTcyNDg2MTU1.jpg

My Calvinmeter is going off; it’s making me a bit uncomfortable.
 
ready said:
Seeing our Lord desires the salvation of each one of us, you should pray for this person of which you speak. We are obligated to pray at least in a general way for our enemies, so pray for the conversion of your enemies. You don’t have to pray for this person specifically – you only are obligated to pray for your enemies in general, though it would be a matter of perfection for you to pray for enemies individually. God bless you.
Click to expand...
I’d like to add that you needn’t pray all day for people like this person of whom you speak, but you should at least offer some sort of prayer for your enemies’ conversion. God bless you.
 
porthos11 said:
Predestination and reprobation are Catholic teaching. Catholicism does hold on to the idea of the elect, i.e. those predestined to glory.

Catholics should not shy away from predestination; it is fully Catholic, albeit one of the most difficult theological concepts to grasp.
Click to expand...
But you are aware that the Catholic teaching of Predestination is very different from the Protestant teaching of Predestination, right? God bless you.
 
ready said:
But you are aware that the Catholic teaching of Predestination is very different from the Protestant teaching of Predestination, right? God bless you.
Click to expand...
Calvinist, not Protestant. There are Protestants who hold to a doctrine of predestination compatible with ours.

Catholicism rejects Calvinistic double-predestination outright as heretical, and affirms man’s free will.

That said, it is Catholic dogma (i.e. non-negotiable) that:
  1. God elects certain people to eternal glory.
  • But whether this is in consideration of their foreseen merits is not defined and either position can be validly held. Thomists/Banezans say no. Molinists say yes.
  1. God predestines others to damnation in light of foreseen demerits.
  • Catholicism rejects reprobation without consideration of foreseen demerits as this is effectively equivalent to Calvinistic double-predestination. It can only be with consideration of foreseen demerits due to their free choices.
And no, #2 does not violate CCC 1037, before anyone brings it up. What I’m saying is that Catholics should not run away from predestination as if it were the exclusive realm of the Calvinists. Catholics have been playing with it for much longer than they have.
 
porthos11 said:
Calvinist, not Protestant. There are Protestants who hold to a doctrine of predestination compatible with ours.

Catholicism rejects Calvinistic double-predestination outright as heretical, and affirms man’s free will.

That said, it is Catholic dogma (i.e. non-negotiable) that:
  1. God elects certain people to eternal glory.
  • But whether this is in consideration of their foreseen merits is not defined and either position can be validly held. Thomists/Banezans say no. Molinists say yes.
  1. God predestines others to damnation in light of foreseen demerits.
  • Catholicism rejects reprobation without consideration of foreseen demerits as this is effectively equivalent to Calvinistic double-predestination. It can only be with consideration of foreseen demerits due to their free choices.
And no, #2 does not violate CCC 1037, before anyone brings it up. What I’m saying is that Catholics should not run away from predestination as if it were the exclusive realm of the Calvinists. Catholics have been playing with it for much longer than they have.
Click to expand...
I said Protestant because Calvinism is Protestant. Then we both can agree that Predestination as understood in the Catholic way is true, but understood in the Calvinist way is utterly false.
 
ready said:
I said Protestant because Calvinism is Protestant. Then we both can agree that Predestination as understood in the Catholic way is true, but understood in the Calvinist way is utterly false.
Click to expand...
Because predestination and reprobation are Catholic dogma, they must be held. Catholics must avoid the knee-jerk reaction of rejecting predestination and reprobation simply because they have become more associated with Calvinism, which is not the case. Catholics must also subscribe to man’s free will, God’s sovereignty, and the universal divine desire for salvation.

Calvinistic double-predestination is not only false, it’s horrific. It’s completely contrary to Scripture and flies in the face of God’s mercy and justice.
 
ready said:
I said Protestant because Calvinism is Protestant. Then we both can agree that Predestination as understood in the Catholic way is true, but understood in the Calvinist way is utterly false.
Click to expand...
Distorted, but not utterly false. Both believe in predestination.
 
porthos11 said:
  1. God predestines others to damnation in light of foreseen demerits.
  • Catholicism rejects reprobation without consideration of foreseen demerits as this is effectively equivalent to Calvinistic double-predestination. .
Click to expand...
True…

“A judge antecedently wishes every man to live, but he consequently wishes a murderer to be hanged; so God antecedently wills every man to be saved, but He consequently wills some to be damned; in consequence, that is, of the exigencies of His justice.” (St. Thomas Aquinas)

“He desires not the death of the sinner (Ezech. 33, 11); and, as thou hast written, He does not entertain an absolute and antecedent decree of damning his creatures, but seeks to save them all, if they do not pursue perdition of their own free will. Although He permits this in his justice as being inseparable from the free will of man, it is against his inclination.” (Our Lady to Ven. Mary of Agreda)
 
Bob_Crowley said:
Distorted, but not utterly false. Both believe in predestination.
Click to expand...
Correct. In fact, one half of Calvinistic predestination, i.e. positive unconditioned predestination to glory, is completely compatible with Catholicism, and is virtually identical to the predestination to glory held by the Thomistic-Banezan school.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top