Should we pray in Latin?

[LilyM]

JimR-OCDS:

The Holy Spirit often lets a person who is following their own will, hit bottom before He begins to pull them out. The person needs to be humble enough to know that God doesn’t care about human language, only where the heart is.

That’s the second time you ignored my response, if language doesn’t matter, why has the Holy Ghost set up all these different rites with their own liturgical languages?

Also are you saying that both, the diversity of these rites, and the restoration of Traditional practices, are evil and a chastisement from God?

The flipaide - if prayer languages have especial value, then surely there is ONE among all languages that is THE best. Why would the Church not want ALL Catholics, regardless of Rite, praying in Latin if Latin is the superior?

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

Because the Holy Mass (Roman Rite) is written in Latin. The prayers are perfect in Latin. In the vernacular languages the prayers are translations, and they don’t always get the original meaning 100% correct.

Okay them tell me, why do recite the Apostle’s Creed at the beginning of our Rosaries?

What do you mean? What does the Apostles’s Creed during the Rosary have to do with bad translations from Latin to the vernacular during the OF masses.

Remember: “And also with you.” While the 2011 re-translations in English are better, they still are not perfect. Saecula Saeculorum is a great example of a Latin idiom that doesn’t exactly translate into English properly. In Latin, it’s perfect. But the multiple English translations over the years have always been iffy.

The prayers of the Mass are perfect in Latin. While they are dynamic equivalence translations in the vernacular.

Look, I don’t know why you are attacking me. I always go to the Latin Mass. I love the Latin mass. I love Latin. But I don’t think you are understanding what I’m trying to communicate. What I’m saying is very nuanced.

 

[Irishmom2]

That’s not the point, the point is that you and others on this thread claim that these words are not offensive, derogatory or attacks on the practice in question, when in fact they are.

My thinking is that Fr. Amorth would agree that it doesn’t matter what language we use to pray to God.

This is what I said. If you think this is “offensive, derogatory or an attack on the practice in question“ you are attaching meaning to it it in ways I never intended.

Please stop twisting everyone’s words to justify your feelings of indignation. Please stop assigning “bad” meanings to everything you disagree with.

 

[Salibi]

I would think that the devil hates Latin because it’s a liturgical language, not because it’s Latin. I would think the devil would hate any language with which prayers are usually said in churches. . . .

Muting now. . . . I don’t think it needs a priest for someone to realize which Latin the devil hates, and why. Do you think the Devil hates Latin when erotic love poetry is being recited in it? Or when pagan gods are being worshipped in it? I don’t think so. This is because the Devil hates the Mass and prayers said in Latin, not the language itself.

I honestly think that this is just pure logic and shouldn’t have to brook this big of a conversation. . . .

Good day.

 

[phil19034]

I’m asking if there is any efficaciousness to reciting the dogmas and doctrines contained in the Apostles’ Creed? You’re not directly talking to God when you recite the Apostles’ Creed, I mean you’re talking to God throughout the whole Rosary, but in the Apostles’ Creed you are professing the Faith; Does that imply that there is efficaciousness in stating the truths of the Faith while in prayer?

Reciting the Apostles Creed is basically just as efficacious as reciting the Nicene Creed at Mass.

Is there any difference, efficacious-wise between saying the Glory Be prayer in English and saying it in Latin?

Depends. If you pray it in Latin (or any other Liturgical Language) in a pious way, out of love for God, then yes, the Latin would be more efficacious. But if you are praying it in Latin out of a small sense of pride or a sense of rebellion, then Latin would not be more efficacious.

If comes down to one’s heart. Are you using the Latin to elevate your prayers, or are you using it out of pride? If it’s out of love, then you are elevating your prayer, same way one would elevate their prayers when they chant or sing their prayer to God.

NOTE: I would also argue that for the native Latin speakers back in the early Church, praying in Latin was not more efficacious for them because they didn’t have to put in extra effort to pray in Latin.

I pray I’m making sense.

 

[Anne1964]

I often pray the Rosary in Latin because I love the language. I chant the Gloria in Latin because at my former parish that’s what we always did during the Novus Ordo Mass.

Now that I have switched to a parish where the Traditional Latin Mass is offered I am learning the responses in Latin.

I think it’s a beautiful language and it helps me to feel connected to the Church throughout history.

As for exorcisms Fr. Ripperger has said that in his experience it is more effective to pray in Latin, primarily because the Latin exorcism rite was developed over centuries and the English translation is lacking.

 

[phil19034]

As for exorcisms Fr. Ripperger has said that in his experience it is more effective to pray in Latin, primarily because the Latin exorcism rite was developed over centuries and the English translation is lacking.

Exactly. The exorcism prayers were written in Latin.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

So if I come across a practice you’re doing and call it “idolatrous,” and “magical,” and “superstitious,” something “the Roman Pagans did” and that God is going to punish you by handing you over to it until you “hit bottom.” That just me “disagreeing” with you and not something you have any right to be angry over?

Please take this in the spirit it’s intended. I mean this in the friendliest, most civil way possible.

You’re getting so wound up that you’re not reading carefully. No one has said that praying in Latin is itself “bad” or “idolatrous, magical, superstitious.” People are saying it could be those things, depending on the persons motivation for praying in Latin. If the person prays in Latin because it makes them feel connected to the historical church, or to some saint they’re particularly devoted to, that’s completely unobjectionable. It’s also possible that someone could develop superstitious feelings around Latin, which is what people were cautioning the OP against. That’s it. No one has said or implied that an interest in Latin is bad or should be discouraged. You’re reading a tone into these posts that isn’t there. For example, the person who said that Roman pagans prayed in Latin was simply making the point that a language is a neutral thing and can be used to good or bad purposes, not claiming that Latin is somehow inherently pagan.

Again, please understand that this is just a friendly discussion. You’re getting wound up and seeing attacks where there aren’t any. No one (at least not me) is intending to attack you or insult you.

 

[Shakuhachi]

These reactions do imply that praying in Latin is bad and should be discouraged.

I pray in Latin and do not see that as an implication. Just a warning that could apply to almost anything. Does God hear my prayer better in Latin? Is it more efficacious? More powerful? More influential with God? Are my prayers then better than the prayers of others in vernacular? Certainly not.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

Why? Why the urge to freak out and immediately start warning the OP about this?

I’m not sure anyone was ever “freaking out”, but as to why I felt the need to caution the OP: CAF has an overabundance of scrupulous types. I can easily see someone around here freaking out that their prayers don’t “count” if they’re not in perfectly articulated Latin.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

People have ego-identity attachments to groups, it’s part of our human state, The group is can be a political or religious group, but in this case it’s the Catholic Religion.

What makes them feel more Catholic is their motive, which may work early on, but will eventually fade as the person feels bored and not very Catholic. They’ll have a hard time dealing with the dirty laundry the Church has had throughout history. They’ll either get offensive against anyone who questions their motives, or just quit.

In my 38 plus years as a contemplative, I’ve come to see my self grow away from my ego-identity attachments and toward a deeper interior relationship with God. A priest friend of mine told me 43 years ago, that if I grow spiritually, it will be away from the surface identity Catholicism that was driving me at the time. I felt put off by what he said, but he was right.

Anyway, I’m not going to argue with you. If you feel called to pray in a language which isn’t your native tongue, you’ll have to decide your own motive for following that path.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I don’t let anonymous people on the internet bother me the way you do.

No one has said that praying in Latin is itself “bad” or “idolatrous, magical, superstitious.” People are saying it could be those things, depending on the persons motivation for praying in Latin.

if I grow spiritually, it will be away from the surface identity Catholicism

Why the urge to freak out and immediately start warning the OP about this? Why has no one, to my knowledge, ever reacted this way to someone saying they want develop a devotion to Saint Anthony, or use Holy Water more?

Reading through these posts last night and again this morning, I see where getting angry over what has been said is not the best thing to do but I do see TheQuietTrad’s point. I do find it strange that as soon as someone mentions they want to learn Latin, a language the Church uses frequently, and pray in Latin, a language many prayers of the Church were written in, there needs to be cautionary statements to not think it is magic or superstitious or if you do God will lead you into hitting rock bottom and it is just surface identity Catholicism. I can only think of a few other Catholic devotions where these statements of caution may appear here at CAF.

So, is there an assumption for some reason that when wants to learn Latin it is for magical, superstitious or gymnastic reasons that warnings must come out that if he tries he will hit bottom?

In asking this question I include a note; many Catholic homeschool families, and Catholic high schools today are teaching youth Latin and prayers in Latin because it is part of the Church and our heritage.

 

[OraLabora]

I really want to learn praying in Latin.
Do some of you pray in Latin?

I do but not because it’s inherently better. It’s because I love Gregorian chant, and I use Gregorian chant to pray the Liturgy of the Hours. Gregorian chant was composed for Latin and doesn’t really adapt to other languages that well, though Italian comes closest for obvious reasons.

If for some reason I cannot chant the LOTH, such as being in public, travelling or having a bad cold, I pray it in French, my first language.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

I do find it strange that as soon as someone mentions they want to learn Latin, a language the Church uses frequently, and pray in Latin, a language many prayers of the Church were written in, there needs to be cautionary statements to not think it is magic or superstitious

The title of the thread is “should we pray in Latin?” “Should” implies that the OP was wondering if praying in Latin is somehow preferable.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

The title of the thread is “should we pray in Latin?” “Should” implies that the OP was wondering if praying in Latin is somehow preferable.

yes, I can see where that would make one wonder if he is asking if there is a reason we should pray in Latin.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Prayer isn’t about doing it because it “counts.”

Prayer is about having a relationship with God and growing toward union or as St John of the Cross called it, a “spiritual marriage.”

God isn’t a record keeper watching for how many prayers you say or devotions you have.

Our love for God is the result of tasting His love for us and prayer is our response to the love we have experienced.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

For some it is, for others it’s a exercise in religion and not much more,

It’s why in this forum we constantly see threads about boredom and distractions in prayer, in addition to feeling like the person is losing their faith.

It’s not a put down, but seeing poor spirituality being taught and understood.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I know from what people posts in this forum, of which I’ve been around a lot longer than you.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

Quite frankly, this accusation reinforces my point.

It’s not an “accusation”. You really need to take a step back and ask yourself why you keep experiencing a discussion as some kind of confrontation between mortal enemies. This is why you’re constantly “on edge.” We disagree on something. We’re not enemies. There doesn’t need to be this undercurrent of animosity.

 

[LilyM]

RolandThompsonGunner:

If the person prays in Latin because it makes them feel connected to the historical church, or to some saint they’re particularly devoted to, that’s completely unobjectionable. It’s also possible that someone could develop superstitious feelings around Latin, which is what people were cautioning the OP against. That’s it.

Okay, let’s set aside the debate about whether or not praying in Latin has any spiritual benefit and focus on this. Why? Why the urge to freak out and immediately start warning the OP about this? Why has no one, to my knowledge, ever reacted this way to someone saying they want develop a devotion to Saint Anthony, or use Holy Water more? Why stoop to something as degrading and offensive as pointing out that the Roman pagans prayed in Latin? (setting aside the fact that, again, that was Classical Latin, not Ecclesial Latin) If one were to take up a legitimate Catholic practice that happened to be around in the times of Nazi Germany, would it be okay to warn that person against superstitions in that practice by saying “the Nazis did that!?”

These reactions do imply that praying in Latin is bad and should be discouraged. To have such a knee jerk reaction against someone who wants to pray in Ecclesial Latin; when the issue of whether or not praying in Latin is beneficial wasn’t even part of the OP; strongly suggests a hostility to the practice.

Look the thread title. It isn’t whether “I” or “some.of us” should pray in Latin - but “we”, as in everyone. That attitude of blanket prescriptuon in relation to such things is I think where people’s.hackles.are being somewhat raised.

And others, in other threads and this, run to strange ideas such as “Christ sanctified Latin” (really? So why was the New Testament predominantly written originally in Creek? I don’t think a single word was originally written in Latin)