Should we respectfully leave the Church

[mommamaree]

Excommunication is a medicine used by the Church it is an ecclesiastical tool. It also has no real bearing on salvation. Joan of Arc was excommunicated. It is when the Church says (usually for the betterment of public opinion) that you are anathema. Some excommunications are automatic (abortion) and some are a lengthy and judicial process. (SSPX)

But excommunication is by no means the only or even the largest way that someone is outside of the Church.

See my previous post.
If you can show me where one is in mortal sin that they are members of the Universal Church. then go ahead. I will say that mortal sin robbing your soul of ALL of God’s graces will be a hard argument to overcome.

Please note that I am repeatedly referring to telling someone to leave the Church, as in not attend Mass, because they have already “left” via mortal sin or dissent. A person who openly dissents or commits a mortal sin places themselves outside of communion, but is not further penalized by being told not to come to Mass until they repent. They ARE advised not to receive Communion, however. And, we cannot know whether a person’s private struggles with moral teachings rise to the level of mortal sin unless they act contrary to Church teaching, or openly dissent. All the more reason why we should counsel them to NOT leave, and make recourse to all the spiritual help that is available.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Hoosier Daddy,
You know I also teach catechism, so this is not news to me.

What I object to is telling someone NOT TO COME BACK to Church (as in Mass, in the Church building) whether because they are in a state of sin or because they dissent.

Off topic aside: By the way, I have never seen four listed. My materials: Faith and Life series and the St. Joseph catechism all say three: Church Militant, Church Suffering, Church Triumphant. So where did you find four?

Would you tell a young man who committed a sin against purity not to come back to Mass until he could muster enough contrition to go to confession first? Or would you simply advise refraining from the Eucharist? I think I know which you would suggest.

So, why would you tell a woman who is struggling with dissent over a moral teaching, who has not yet acted contrary to Church teaching, but is instead seeking counsel and help from Catholic friends and here at CAF, that she has already left in her heart so she should formally leave? I doubt you really would, would you? I hope not. I hope you would advise her to continue seeking counsel, continue in prayer, remain obedient even though it is hard, have recourse to confession, but most of all, keep attending Mass, and perhaps even have as her private Mass intention that the Holy Spirit would guide her husband and her in this difficult trial.

What I object to is telling someone NOT TO COME BACK to Church (as in Mass, in the Church building) whether because they are in a state of sin or because they dissent.

The we agree! The way back in is through the sacrament of reconciliation and to be forgiven of mortal sin all the conditions must be met. One should ALWAYS reconcile with the Church. Especially if one is outside of it. If one dissents and does not believe an infallible teaching or refuses to follow it because it is too hard. I am afraid reconciliation is not possible.

Off topic aside: By the way, I have never seen four listed. My materials: Faith and Life series and the St. Joseph catechism all say three: Church Militant, Church Suffering, Church Triumphant. So where did you find four?

Wiki Reliability aside the point still stands and actually Church expectant does a nice job of explaining purgatory. If I had time, I would see where they got this from.

Would you tell a young man who committed a sin against purity not to come back to Mass until he could muster enough contrition to go to confession first? Or would you simply advise refraining from the Eucharist? I think I know which you would suggest.

I hope you know what my advice would be to this young man. Exactly as you state. And in this way the Church actually coaxes him back by having it be an awkward situation just sitting there week after week unable to receive. If the young man said (as is often the case on CAF masturbation threads) " I flat out don’t believe the Church on this." Then I would have to say that going to Church week after week about something you do not believe is not practical. The Church would probably teach to follow your conscience and that conscience would lead you out of the Church. More a person who does not subscribe to the rule of masturbation would probably also have a problem with the rule about abstaining from the Eucharist, so either would leave or receive unworthily. Bottom line about mortal things, there is not a place within the church to reject them. You either do not know them, or you are too weak to obey. Both of those can be rectified but until they are… you are outside.

So, why would you tell a woman who is struggling with dissent over a moral teaching, who has not yet acted contrary to Church teaching, but is instead seeking counsel and help from Catholic friends and here at CAF, that she has already left in her heart so she should formally leave? I doubt you really would, would you? I hope not. I hope you would advise her to continue seeking counsel, continue in prayer, remain obedient even though it is hard, have recourse to confession, but most of all, keep attending Mass, and perhaps even have as her private Mass intention that the Holy Spirit would guide her husband and her in this difficult trial.

One of the things that struck me about the OP is she said RESPECTFULLY leave the Church. Some said that was not possible. But I think it indicates in the OP the same level of respect of one who refrains from taking the Eucharist in mortal sin. My answer to the OP is if you continue on and enter into mortal sin in something that you know what the teaching of the Church is but you cannot accept it then you have “left” the Church. So while I would never tell someone who wants to be Catholic that they should leave the Church I would do two things. If you do not believe the faith, you can leave the Church and if you are in mortal sin you have LEFT the Church. But ultimately, Yes, everyone should try to remain INSIDE the Barque Of Peter.

 

[shelby_sun]

I… what? So the Church is not wrong about this?

Then you are? But you’re cool with that?

I’m not following.

Have you not been reading all the post!? I have stated over and over that I am not right, but what do you want me do say. I can lie and say that I truly in my heart believe in this teaching, but then then I would be a liar. God knows what, I think and feel and believe.

I have told NO one to follow what I have done except talk and listen to there priest. Ironically, you would be in support of that if her priest had told her what you think he should have and maybe he should have, but do really think I have made up my situation. I have not gone into the entire conversation, because you would believe me anymore than you do now, but if you want to know I can.

I am not “cool” with anything, especially telling someone they are going to hell.

 

[marywarfield]

Since you still feel the need to mention me and make me out to be something I am not I will continue to respond.

LOL No I would fully expect your priest to say just what he said, in line with the Church’s teaching. But thank you for you assumption, you are good at those also. Like I said before, which I am sure you will not believe I did not seek out numerous priest until I found one to said what I wanted to hear.

Good for you that you are still apart of the Church, but you are still a sinner, as are all the rest of us on this site.

Did you not counsel and defend the OP in following
her priest’s advice?

Oh I think you did. Even if it clashes with Church
teaching?
And did you not talk about your own priest as well?
I think you did.

And quite frankly the idea that I’m a sinner in your
eyes does not further the argument since by your
reasoning so are you. So what is your point?
Do you have one?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Please note that I am repeatedly referring to telling someone to leave the Church, as in not attend Mass, because they have already “left” via mortal sin or dissent. A person who openly dissents or commits a mortal sin places themselves outside of communion, but is not further penalized by being told not to come to Mass until they repent. They ARE advised not to receive Communion, however. And, we cannot know whether a person’s private struggles with moral teachings rise to the level of mortal sin unless they act contrary to Church teaching, or openly dissent. All the more reason why we should counsel them to NOT leave, and make recourse to all the spiritual help that is available.

We probably agree on this or are at least pretty close. Except I’ll bet some words I choose make you wince as much as some words you choose make me wince.

Like “advised” above. Makes me wince. It makes it sound like a take it or leave it “advice” of the Church. When really it is more of a command that if not followed is a mortal sin in and of itself! Like saying the 10 advisements that God gave to Moses.

But ultimately I think we agree. Any person who wishes to see Christ Sacrificed for them should be at the Mass.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Unless we turn this around I smell some “ecclesiastical penalties” coming from the mods…

 

[mommamaree]

The we agree! The way back in is through the sacrament of reconciliation and to be forgiven of mortal sin all the conditions must be met. One should ALWAYS reconcile with the Church. Especially if one is outside of it. If one dissents and does not believe an infallible teaching or refuses to follow it because it is too hard. I am afraid reconciliation is not possible.

Wiki Reliability aside the point still stands and actually Church expectant does a nice job of explaining purgatory. If I had time, I would see where they got this from.

I hope you know what my advice would be to this young man. Exactly as you state. And in this way the Church actually coaxes him back by having it be an awkward situation just sitting there week after week unable to receive. If the young man said (as is often the case on CAF masturbation threads) " I flat out don’t believe the Church on this." Then I would have to say that going to Church week after week about something you do not believe is not practical. The Church would probably teach to follow your conscience and that conscience would lead you out of the Church. More a person who does not subscribe to the rule of masturbation would probably also have a problem with the rule about abstaining from the Eucharist, so either would leave or receive unworthily. Bottom line about mortal things, there is not a place within the church to reject them. You either do not know them, or you are too weak to obey. Both of those can be rectified but until they are… you are outside.

One of the things that struck me about the OP is she said RESPECTFULLY leave the Church. Some said that was not possible. But I think it indicates in the OP the same level of respect of one who refrains from taking the Eucharist in mortal sin. My answer to the OP is if you continue on and enter into mortal sin in something that you know what the teaching of the Church is but you cannot accept it then you have “left” the Church. So while I would never tell someone who wants to be Catholic that they should leave the Church I would do two things. If you do not believe the faith, you can leave the Church and if you are in mortal sin you have LEFT the Church. But ultimately, Yes, everyone should try to remain INSIDE the Barque Of Peter.

Yes, and in my experience a lot of people say “I don’t believe” when what they really mean is more like “this is really hard, and I don’t want to believe, and I am afraid I am going to fall into sin in this area because I cannot understand this hard thing”. But a person who simply doesn’t believe? I doubt they would be asking questions and seeking to understand and using terms such as “respectfully”.

Avocado Mom,
If you are still around, know that you will continue to be in my prayers this week. Please stay in the Church. Seek further counsel. Read Humanae Vitae, if you can. It is not too long of a letter, and is very beautiful. God bless you.

 

[mommamaree]

We probably agree on this or are at least pretty close. Except I’ll bet some words I choose make you wince as much as some words you choose make me wince.

Like “advised” above. Makes me wince. It makes it sound like a take it or leave it “advice” of the Church. When really it is more of a command that if not followed is a mortal sin in and of itself! Like saying the 10 advisements that God gave to Moses.

But ultimately I think we agree. Any person who wishes to see Christ Sacrificed for them should be at the Mass.

I used the term advised because I was referring to lay people performing a work of mercy and instructing the ignorant or admonishing a sinner. As lay people, we may not command anyone, except perhaps our children. A priest, however, may directly tell someone not to present themselves for communion. However, even in that case, it would not be implied that the person is thereby excused from Mass. It is to be hoped that they remain and repent.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Yes, and in my experience a lot of people say “I don’t believe” when what they really mean is more like “this is really hard, and I don’t want to believe, and I am afraid I am going to fall into sin in this area because I cannot understand this hard thing”. But a person who simply doesn’t believe? I doubt they would be asking questions and seeking to understand and using terms such as “respectfully”.

Avocado Mom,
If you are still around, know that you will continue to be in my prayers this week. Please stay in the Church. Seek further counsel. Read Humanae Vitae, if you can. It is not too long of a letter, and is very beautiful. God bless you.

In my experience people seem to only agree with what they wish to and still call themselves Catholic.
“I think the Church is wrong on ABC.”
“I think the Church is wrong on masturbation”
“I think the Church is wrong on IVF”
“I think the Church is wrong on divorce”
" I think the Church is wrong on gay issues"

What I worry about is that these people are letting pride get in the way of them ever truly being forgiven. They throw around words like ignorance and culpability and yet seem to have no problem accepting say, Transubstantiation" or an infinite God who created everything from nothing, or a Church that is correct in all the fluffy happy things but is wrong in all the uncomfortable and hard things.

This has always helped me. I recognize and give all authority to the Church. When she says something, I believe it.
Years ago when masturbation was an issue for me, I never once thought “oh, the Church has this one wrong” All I thought was I am sorry I am too weak to follow you Jesus forgive me. Which if you think about it is the only way one can be reconciled out of mortal sin. And you just cannot do that if you cannot humble yourself to God and His Church. Maybe that is why the confession lines are so short and the communion lines so long…

 

[marywarfield]

Unless we turn this around I smell some “ecclesiastical penalties” coming from the mods…

Well no problem for me. I’m un subscribing as I
find it a waste of time to discuss such issues
with people who can’t even quote a poster honestly
in their rush to justify their own behavior.
And quite frankly- yes many priests have and still
do counsel parishioners to leave until they
can accept Church teaching. Why? Because the
more they stay within arguing the points and
over population, and starving children, and the church
is backwards, and theologians senile and Protestants are more loving
the more hardened in sin they become whether
or not they receive the Eucharist.
When parishioners lose their fear of excommunication
they need to leave simply so they don’t harm themselves
further.
They aren’t jumping off a bridge or swallowinf cyanide.
They can always
come right back with confession.
Some Catholics actually return from their coffee groups
with happy joyful birth control using Protestants
with more faith in the Church than they left with.

Either way the responsibility is THEIRS. Not the priest’s.

 

[Rau]

Yes, and there are many people who do not believe.
The Faith is a gift from God. Some people never received it, for whatever reason.
Everybody is different. That’s beautiful.
Somebody is OK when is told it’s like that, someone else needs to understand the logic behind the things.

Agreed. What started off our conversation was another poster failing to simply say she didn’t accept certain church teaching and instead advocating “follow the wise advice of your good priest, he knows best”. That was disingenuous.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I used the term advised because I was referring to lay people performing a work of mercy and instructing the ignorant or admonishing a sinner. As lay people, we may not command anyone, except perhaps our children. A priest, however, may directly tell someone not to present themselves for communion. However, even in that case, it would not be implied that the person is thereby excused from Mass. It is to be hoped that they remain and repent.

I have no problem telling someone the Church/God commands those who are in mortal sin to refrain. I have no problem bringing up Paul in this context. I would have a problem forbidding someone on my own authority. I do not have that power.

But like I said, sadly if someone rejects a simple command like on ABC or sterilization where is the logic in keeping a harder one of refraining from the Eucharist indefinately?

 

[Ingeniero]

Yes of course. But one also needs to take into account real life. It is also painful to tell someone to go to Mass every single week and sit there and separate yourself from the community and having the fact that you do not accept what the Church teaches rubbed in your face every single week, for the rest of your life or until you either succumb to the teaching or unworthily receive. That is much harder emotionally than someone telling you something that is hard to hear.

Yet this is the position of the Church. This is the medicine needed to bring one back in. IF the OPs question is should I stay if I do not believe. Then the answer is no. IF it is “I am weak, should I stay and go to Mass and pray to be led in the right direction” Then the answer is Yes! Yes! a thousand times Yes.

Matthew 12:20 - has always expressed to me God’s love and hope for us.

**“A bruised reed He shall not break. A smoldering wick He shall not quench.” **

It was the verse that kept me going to Mass when I was separated from the Church due to my intransigience.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Matthew 12:20 - has always expressed to me God’s love and hope for us.

**“A bruised reed He shall not break. A smoldering wick He shall not quench.” **

It was the verse that kept me going to Mass when I was separated from the Church due to my intransigience.

It was the verse that kept me going to Mass when I was separated from the Church…

I like this part. You recognize you were outside of the Church but still went to Mass and then were brought into the Church. Perfect, and exactly the way it should happen.

 

[LongingSoul]

Please note that I am repeatedly referring to telling someone to leave the Church, as in not attend Mass, because they have already “left” via mortal sin or dissent. A person who openly dissents or commits a mortal sin places themselves outside of communion, but is not further penalized by being told not to come to Mass until they repent. They ARE advised not to receive Communion, however. And, we cannot know whether a person’s private struggles with moral teachings rise to the level of mortal sin unless they act contrary to Church teaching, or openly dissent. All the more reason why we should counsel them to NOT leave, and make recourse to all the spiritual help that is available.

Marywarfield was actually the first to address this in #47…

There is another alternative all are ignoring. One we
Catholics of well formed conscience USED to do
quite frequently. Anyone here old enough to remember
back when Sunday Mass a ton of people remained kneeling
and praying during Zcommunion and did not receive?

THAT is the proper position for people not able
temporarily to reconcile a church teaching.
NOT to leave the Church. That is terrible advice.

But to stick to Mass, attend, pray during the Eucharist
that God will provide the necessary grace to get
you through the difficulty.

There is NEVER a good reason to leave the Church.
But there is frequently good reason to attend but
not partake of Communion.

In post #55 the OP sort of signed off with the following…

“My friends say I am crazy for not just doing what I think is best. Even my Catholic friends think the Church’s rule on contraception in cases of health issues is ridiculous, as does my spouse, and apparently so does our priest.”

By indicating that the priest who advised them might not have been fully on board with Catholic teaching, another dimension was introduced. The conversation began then to focus on the issue of whether the outright objection of Church teaching based on the belief that the Churh is wrong, constituted a rejection of Catholicism itself considering there are many other denominations who embrace that position nowadays.

You’ve got hold of a bone that you don’t want to let go of and haven’t revisited the trajectory of the conversation to see how it got to where it is now.

 

[marywarfield]

In my experience people seem to only agree with what they wish to and still call themselves Catholic.
“I think the Church is wrong on ABC.”
“I think the Church is wrong on masturbation”
“I think the Church is wrong on IVF”
“I think the Church is wrong on divorce”
" I think the Church is wrong on gay issues"

What I worry about is that these people are letting pride get in the way of them ever truly being forgiven. They throw around words like ignorance and culpability and yet seem to have no problem accepting say, Transubstantiation" or an infinite God who created everything from nothing, or a Church that is correct in all the fluffy happy things but is wrong in all the uncomfortable and hard things.

This has always helped me. I recognize and give all authority to the Church. When she says something, I believe it.
Years ago when masturbation was an issue for me, I never once thought “oh, the Church has this one wrong” All I thought was I am sorry I am too weak to follow you Jesus forgive me. Which if you think about it is the only way one can be reconciled out of mortal sin. And you just cannot do that if you cannot humble yourself to God and His Church. Maybe that is why the confession lines are so short and the communion lines so long…

This. This a thousand times this. I figured that out at
15 and the old priest showed me the door when I thought
it was wrong to not allow contraception or abortion.

What I wanted was a rousing theilogical argument.
What I got was the door. Whoops!
I was out of the Church a whole ten minutes!
Back in Confession in ten. Must have been a record
and I believe that old priest knew that was going
to happen all along.

I have never questioned the authority of the Church
since because what it boils down to:
who am I to tell two thousand years of blood, sweat
and theology that it’s ignorant?
Really?
Me? I know better?
I really doubt it.

 

[shelby_sun]

Agreed. What started off our conversation was another poster failing to simply say she didn’t accept certain church teaching and instead advocating “follow the wise advice of your good priest, he knows best”. That was disingenuous.

I really hope you were not quoting me because you were you were disingenuous for not going back and getting my exact quote, what you quoted was not it! I never said “wise” and I believe I said he knows more about what you told him than anyone on this site. You have be unbelievable the way you twist word instead of using the actually quote. Not being disingenuous there. Don’t want to take the time to look back for what people actually said then stop make false comments.

 

[LongingSoul]

In my experience people seem to only agree with what they wish to and still call themselves Catholic.
“I think the Church is wrong on ABC.”
“I think the Church is wrong on masturbation”
“I think the Church is wrong on IVF”
“I think the Church is wrong on divorce”
" I think the Church is wrong on gay issues"

What I worry about is that these people are letting pride get in the way of them ever truly being forgiven. They throw around words like ignorance and culpability and yet seem to have no problem accepting say, Transubstantiation" or an infinite God who created everything from nothing, or a Church that is correct in all the fluffy happy things but is wrong in all the uncomfortable and hard things.

This has always helped me. I recognize and give all authority to the Church. When she says something, I believe it.
Years ago when masturbation was an issue for me, I never once thought “oh, the Church has this one wrong” All I thought was I am sorry I am too weak to follow you Jesus forgive me. Which if you think about it is the only way one can be reconciled out of mortal sin. And you just cannot do that if you cannot humble yourself to God and His Church. Maybe that is why the confession lines are so short and the communion lines so long…

On a slightly different tangent… many, many, moons ago, my first child died in childbirth. Unfortunately it was on Christmas day and the Catholic chaplain was not available to me and my first thought was for the fate of my unbaptised babe. This was before the Church officially dropped the Limbo of Infants in favour of leaving unbaptised infants to the mercy of God. I found that I very strongly believed that my child was in the arms of Jesus in the bosom of heaven. I kept this in my heart for a few years never publically condemning the Churchs position on unbaptised infants, but knowing that there was a good reason for it at that time.

In other examples, there are many people who have required treatment of various conditions that have resulted in sterility but have not felt the need to publically attack or question Church teaching in order to be at peace with the situation. The Church teaching is inspired by the Holy Spirit for the wellbeing of each person within the Communion of Saints. God bless all those faithful obedient and God bless those who don’t resort to publically criticising the Church to assuage their own consciences.

 

[shelby_sun]

I have no problem telling someone the Church/God commands those who are in mortal sin to refrain. I have no problem bringing up Paul in this context. I would have a problem forbidding someone on my own authority. I do not have that power.

But like I said, sadly if someone rejects a simple command like on ABC or sterilization where is the logic in keeping a harder one of refraining from the Eucharist indefinately?

Again to be clear, I do NOT take communion which I have already posted! Really do you people really read everything. I also mentioned that I have taken communion one Easter and Christmas because I thought it might change how I feel, after which I spoke to a priest, surely no one good enough for you.

 

[marywarfield]

Agreed. What started off our conversation was another poster failing to simply say she didn’t accept certain church teaching and instead advocating “follow the wise advice of your good priest, he knows best”. That was disingenuous.

changed the whole direction.