Should we respectfully leave the Church

[Rau]

No you didn’t come out and call me a liar, you didn’t call me week directly, you used your manipulative style writing style so you would not be called out by abusing forum rules. Yes you know exactly what is going on here.

As seem to know nothing about being charitable yourself, so we are done. I am sure if you were more a Christ like person I might I something to learn, but you simply are not.

At least 3 posters who have taken a contrary position with you in the debate have been accused of manipulative writing, of calling you a liar and of being un-Christ like. Why don’t you just focus on the substance of the debate, rather than posters?

 

[marywarfield]

On a slightly different tangent… many, many, moons ago, my first child died in childbirth. Unfortunately it was on Christmas day and the Catholic chaplain was not available to me and my first thought was for the fate of my unbaptised babe. This was before the Church officially dropped the Limbo of Infants in favour of leaving unbaptised infants to the mercy of God. I found that I very strongly believed that my child was in the arms of Jesus in the bosom of heaven. I kept this in my heart for a few years never publically condemning the Churchs position on unbaptised infants, but knowing that there was a good reason for it at that time.

In other examples, there are many people who have required treatment of various conditions that have resulted in sterility but have not felt the need to publically attack or question Church teaching in order to be at peace with the situation. The Church teaching is inspired by the Holy Spirit for the wellbeing of each person within the Communion of Saints. God bless all those faithful obedient and God bless those who don’t resort to publically criticising the Church to assuage their own consciences.

We ALL have those difficulties. Everyone.
Two examples: if you look back on my early posts
you will see my first child was also born dead.
I did not immediately consider Limbo. I assumed he was
in Heaven. Later the subject came up and I asked
my priest about it and he told me not
to worry the child was in Heaven.
Several years later another priest stated from the
pulpit that his mother baptized her miscarriages in the
toilet so they would not be lost. This was not lovely
to hear. My children are baptized and living the two left
to me. I took the whole issue and gave it to God. I hope
for the best and fear the worst.

My husband and I were very young when we eloped to
get married civilly in Reno. Living together and all that.
Because of a death in the family our parish priest
counseled me to receive the Eucharist for support
even though I was in adultery. Our wedding would
not be for four more months. I refrained from the
Eucharist until the Wedding Mass.

Priests are human just like us. Just like us.

 

[mommamaree]

You’ve got hold of a bone that you don’t want to let go of and haven’t revisited the trajectory of the conversation to see how it got to where it is now.

Please. I was hashing out a teaching with Hoosier Daddy, and we have come to an understanding. That is hardly a dog with a bone. I have no desire to discuss anything at all with you personally. I replied to you earlier because you told me I misunderstood the teaching, which I did not, and I have demonstrated that I did not misunderstand. But beyond that, I am not interested in discussing anything you have posted.

 

[shelby_sun]

Did you not counsel and defend the OP in following
her priest’s advice?

Oh I think you did. Even if it clashes with Church
teaching?
And did you not talk about your own priest as well?
I think you did.

And quite frankly the idea that I’m a sinner in your
eyes does not further the argument since by your
reasoning so are you. So what is your point?
Do you have one?

Yes I did. Was I suppose to tell her to listen some over the top stranger on the internet over her priest? Would that be more wise?

You cannot even say your a sinner which says a great deal right there. Your couldn’t get my point even if you wanted too. Yes I am a sinner and since I cannot agree with you, I have admitted I may not have a place in this Church or I can stay feeling unwelcome, not take Communion (which I don’t), and assume I will not be saved.

All you want to be is right. Do you not know all the things the Church has changed over time. Why is they are all knowing and never wrong? Why did there need to be a Vatican II if the Church was always right since it began?

By the way I do not speak of the Protestants as you do. Luckily no one is going to charge you with being a bigot even though you speak with such a derogatory way about them. I guess the Church teach’s that also.

 

[LongingSoul]

Please. I was hashing out a teaching with Hoosier Daddy, and we have come to an understanding. That is hardly a dog with a bone. I have no desire to discuss anything at all with you personally. I replied to you earlier because you told me I misunderstood the teaching, which I did not, and I have demonstrated that I did not misunderstand. But beyond that, I am not interested in discussing anything you have posted.

scratches head and wonders why mommamaree started it in the first place with me?

 

[shelby_sun]

At least 3 posters who have taken a contrary position with you in the debate have been accused of manipulative writing, of calling you a liar and of being un-Christ like. Why don’t you just focus on the substance of the debate, rather than posters?

For one because you misquote me. Not 3, you and Mary! Which I still very much stand behind. What that I am going against the Catholic Church, that I am sinning, that I told the OP to listen to her priest over some stranger on the internet. Should I tell her to invest all her money with some stranger on the internet also?

So what do you want me to say. I think I have said everything and yes you did question if I actually spoke to a priest or he said what I said he did. Why don’t you stand up and admit that, why because you people can’t admit you are ever wrong. So what is the point of saying anything else.

I don’t think I am better, know more, or am going to be saved over anyone else, but I have not lied about anything I have said or that I made the right decision, or that I should be saved. I can parrot everything the Church says and that I believe but then I would be a liar and God would know it. That is what you can’t understand.

 

[shelby_sun]

We ALL have those difficulties. Everyone.

Priests are human just like us. Just like us.

WHAT! That priest can be human but mine cannot! Very interesting. Now I am officially done. Continue the slander!

 

[shelby_sun]

scratches head and wonders why mommamaree started it in the first place with me?

Yes, a mistake for both mommmaree and I.

 

[LongingSoul]

If you were engaged in conversation with another person but your listening was solely devoted to the pleasure of music rather than the pleasure of listening to the others sharing, yes, that violates the purpose of conversation and the communion of the persons.

But if you are engaging with someone else in either verbal or sexual intercourse, you are by definition, not ‘alone’. If you are sitting beside someone each listening to shared music, that is not technically conversation. That is just being together doing your own thing.

The same with sexual intercourse that is about pleasure without the primal conversation ie. the fully giving of everything you are.

 

[kozlosap]

Have you not been reading all the post!? I have stated over and over that I am not right, but what do you want me do say. I can lie and say that I truly in my heart believe in this teaching, but then then I would be a liar. God knows what, I think and feel and believe.

I have told NO one to follow what I have done except talk and listen to there priest. Ironically, you would be in support of that if her priest had told her what you think he should have and maybe he should have, but do really think I have made up my situation. I have not gone into the entire conversation, because you would believe me anymore than you do now, but if you want to know I can.

I am not “cool” with anything, especially telling someone they are going to hell.

You are so brave!! I too struggle with believing that ABC is a sin. I would never in ten thousand years tell another Catholic that they should not go to mass or receive the Holy Eucharist - to me, that’s a much bigger sin than ABC or even divorce.

 

[shelby_sun]

You are so brave!! I too struggle with believing that ABC is a sin. I would never in ten thousand years tell another Catholic that they should not go to mass or receive the Holy Eucharist - to me, that’s a much bigger sin than ABC or even divorce.

No I am not brave, just sickened by people who seem to know who and who are not going to be saved and over what. Too think that every situation is the same in God eyes is just unbelievable. I live in a large Catholic community that cares more about helping the poor, elderly, mentally ill, homeless, those with severe illness than we do about judging others. We work on ourselves has sinners rather than focus on other sins. Like you. I would never tell people those things either. Those other the once that need to be there the most and maybe who needs the Eucharist the most. ONLY, god knows.

 

[ephesians4]

I am not saying this is right, but it is reality: we have all broken the rules and must ask to be forgiven - because even where our sin is done to save lives or suffering (and He does know our hearts), we know we must answer for our own acts with great care and abject humility, to be right with Him.

If you do things that aren’t perfectly in line with church teaching and treat the matter seriously that is one thing, but what I think is probably MUCH worse is to get into the situation where you think you can rationalize things to yourself and that makes it square forever, because you risk creating a partition between yourself and repentance, between yourself and God.

The one thing that would definitely be the wrong thing to do, whatever you choose to do, would be to turn your back on the Church and the Lord and walk away. This way you could make any situation worse.

 

[NFPWife]

We ALL have those difficulties. Everyone.
Two examples: if you look back on my early posts
you will see my first child was also born dead.
I did not immediately consider Limbo. I assumed he was
in Heaven. Later the subject came up and I asked
my priest about it and he told me not
to worry the child was in Heaven.
Several years later another priest stated from the
pulpit that his mother baptized her miscarriages in the
toilet so they would not be lost. This was not lovely
to hear. My children are baptized and living the two left
to me. I took the whole issue and gave it to God. I hope
for the best and fear the worst.

This will likely take this thread further off track, but… the Church’s teaching includes extraordinary forms of Baptism - Baptism by Desire and Baptism by Blood. From the Catechism -

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

I’ve heard many teach that if parents can stand in church and express their desire for an ordinary Baptism for their child, then, by extension, the parents’ desire for Baptism for a child who dies before Baptism was possible would be sufficient for a Baptism by Desire. Personally, I find that comforting and hope you do as well.

 

[shelby_sun]

I am not saying this is right, but it is reality: we have all broken the rules and must ask to be forgiven - because even where our sin is done to save lives or suffering (and He does know our hearts), we know we must answer for our own acts with great care and abject humility, to be right with Him.

If you do things that aren’t perfectly in line with church teaching and treat the matter seriously that is one thing, but what I think is probably MUCH worse is to get into the situation where you think you can rationalize things to yourself and that makes it square forever, because you risk creating a partition between yourself and repentance, between yourself and God.

The one thing that would definitely be the wrong thing to do, whatever you choose to do, would be to turn your back on the Church and the Lord and walk away. This way you could make any situation worse.

So let me ask you please. I have taken known of what I have talked about lightly. I went to a priest and because other did not agree with his response which I did not get into great detail about or how my past lead my to my decision, I have been accused of not being honest. How do you come to what is right. I am not young, but have known how I feel on this issue for a very long time. I’m I too leave the Church over this one issue or stay and not be truly apart of the Mass? I am not one to just assume protestants are going to hell as they have the same God and many serve Him very well on a daily basis.

 

[lily22]

You could just accept that you might die.

I know, this is totally morbid, but God is in control, and he can literally wipe you off the face of the Earth tomorrow, you, your husband, or any of your kids. Maybe, this is that reminder as well for you and your community.

It’s a test from Our Lord Jesus, He says: Woman, Do You Love Me? He said, there is no greater love than laying down one’s life for one’s friends. He is putting you to the test in a severe way. He tests those he loves.

Ok, have faith, and cheer up! God’s blessings.

 

[lily22]

Jesus is testing your will to live forever. Immortality/control over your life. He’s testing that evil spirit in you that is saying: my life is MINE, and not yours, Jesus. I don’t trust you Completely. I want it my way.

It’s not yours, it’s His. Everything Good comes from Him. He is testing you by saying: Do You Love Me Above All Things. Above husband. Above Children. Do You Love Me and Make Me Number One.

Do you accept Him? Do You Love Him? Do you accept His Grace of Eternal Life? Then, don’t cause your husband to sin. Allow him to stay fertile. So what if you die? Then he is infertile and can’t remarry and have more kids? Selfish!! You could die tomorrow, what are you thinking?

Jesus says, Choose LIFE.

What I’m hearing from you is: My time may be up, Guys, so I’m gonna hurt my husband so I can keep living." You think God doesn’t see your thinking?

 

[Rau]

I really hope you were not quoting me because you were you were disingenuous for not going back and getting my exact quote, what you quoted was not it! I never said “wise” and I believe I said he knows more about what you told him than anyone on this site. You have be unbelievable the way you twist word instead of using the actually quote. Not being disingenuous there. Don’t want to take the time to look back for what people actually said then stop make false comments.

OK, here is exact quote:
Shelby Sun, in her first post on this thread (post #115) said:
“To the OP, please, please, please listen to your priest!!! I am not sure after speaking to your priest why you would come on this site. He is the most knowledgeable and wisest person you could listen to.”

Oops, you’re correct. You didn’t say “wise”, you said “wisest” (the superlative form of the adjective).

And, in a later Post, #136 you wrote to Mark:
“How arrogant of you to think you know more than a long time priest.”

In response to your first post, I wrote (post #123):
“You show great respect to this priest and to the opinion he is reported to have given. Yet you utterly shun Church teaching, approved by the Bishops and the Pope, who were all once priests. So, the status of the man as a Priest is not what gives his advice credence for you is it? It must be that he agrees with you!”

In response to that (see post #128), you started talking about lying, manipulated writing and arrogance!

May I ask you: If the OP’s Priest had advised her in a direction more in line with the teachings found in the Catechism, would you still have heaped praise upon him and advised the OP to follow his wise counsel?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Again to be clear, I do NOT take communion which I have already posted! Really do you people really read everything. I also mentioned that I have taken communion one Easter and Christmas because I thought it might change how I feel, after which I spoke to a priest, surely no one good enough for you.

Shelby, I was not addressing you. In fact I have purposely not addressed you because it have no interest in engaging you because it would be futile. You seem ready to do battle with everyone around you. Which is your prerogative. You have already said you were done. But continue to rile and be riled. I have to wonder, if you are at peace with your decision why is it that you are causing yourself so much strife and anger over this thread? If you feel persecuted there is no need to continue in the path that you think you are on.

One of the things that I have noticed is that those who have taken a position such as yours in regard to the OP and advice that has to do with mortal sin and heaven and hell is sure sounds a lot like “Let His blood be on our hands” I for one wan’t no potential culpability in a brother or sisters sin. Which is why a simple stating of Church teaching and theology is the best coarse of action. I already gamble my own salvation on my own sins, I don’t need the sins of others to drag me down too!

Responding was against my better judgement. Hopefully I do not regret it.

 

[shelby_sun]

OK, here is exact quote:
Shelby Sun, in her first post on this thread (post #115) said:
"To the OP, please, please, please listen to your priest!!! I am not sure after speaking to your priest why you would come on this site. He is the most knowledgeable and wisest person you could listen to."

Oops, you’re correct. You didn’t say “wise”, you said “wisest” (the superlative form of the adjective).

And, in a later Post, #136 you wrote to Mark:
“How arrogant of you to think you know more than a long time priest.”

In response to your first post, I wrote (post #123):
“You show great respect to this priest and to the opinion he is reported to have given. Yet you utterly shun Church teaching, approved by the Bishops and the Pope, who were all once priests. So, the status of the man as a Priest is not what gives his advice credence for you is it? It must be that he agrees with you!”

In response to that (see post #128), you started talking about lying, manipulated writing and arrogance!

May I ask you: If the OP’s Priest had advised her in a direction more in line with the teachings found in the Catechism, would you still have heaped praise upon him and advised the OP to follow his wise counsel?

You are correct. Thank you for checking. I probably won’t be clear either, but I stand behind that I would think her priest is wiser with the information she gave him that he would be wiser than anyone on the site.

Absolutely, I would have told he to take her priest advice over anyone on this site, including me, if had had given her the advice you think best.

Like I said, the way I came to think of this issue, came from the day I was conceived and under a situation that I have not gone into because from these post people will think I am making it up. so why bring it up. It does not change that what I feel is going against the Church teachings, but because God knows the long standing issues that effect my everyday existence I know he understands, not that he approves, but that he understand.

People want to play this out that I am cool with this, well I am not; however, for anyone here who expects me to just jump ship on long deep seeded feeling because they say a I am wrong, it just isn’t going to happen because I few stranglers, some of whom I have a hard time believing have the Holy Spirit in there life, isn’t going happen. I have not asked to be forgiven or saved and do not expect to be, but saying I think, feel, or see things differently because of these post would be a lie, and God would not it, so what would change?

 

[Rau]

Not 3, you and Mary! Which I still very much stand behind.

The 3rd poster you blasted was Mark, though he was only accused of arrogance.

…I have not lied about anything I have said or that I made the right decision, or that I should be saved. I can parrot everything the Church says and that I believe but then I would be a liar and God would know it. That is what you can’t understand.

I am not aware of any “lie”, nor accused you of one. I have put it to you that the respect you showed the OPs priest was not truly out of respect for his priestly wisdom, but because his advice (as reported by the OP) accords with your personal position. Now, if that does not reflect the situation, then you need only say that you’d have had the same regard for the Priest’s advice, and urged the OP to follow it, had he encouraged a path in accord with the Church’s teaching on contraception.