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The_Bucket
Guest
No…
Hysterectomy is fine because they address problems with a uterus. Excessive bleeding, cancer, etc. What medical problem is the vasectomy addressing that abstinence or very conservative NFP use wouldn’t?
And besides, a vasectomy is not 100% effective. If you need 100% effectiveness, if even a 1/200 chance is too high, total abstinence is the truly only way to go from a purely statistical standpoint.
R
Rau
Guest
Interesting approach, and rather different to what we read in the Catechism.
There may be no option but to have a hysterectomy in certain medical circumstances. A vasectomy is not “required” in any comparable way. The assumption underlying your scenario seems to be that it is inevitable the couple will be unable to avoid sex when the woman is fertile. Given the situation, I would think that is most unlikely. Undoubtedly, they will need to have less sex than might otherwise be the case.
Are there other scenarios where you believe a vasectomy would be justified?
M
mommy_k
Guest
The op has medical problems with carrying -ie: uterine problems and additonal heart problems. Therefore it is comparable, as sacramentally married people are one in spirit.
We don’t ever presume how Jesus calls each of us to follow Him through the Catholic church.For some, strict observation of the ccc without deviation is one way, but not the only way, as this situation shows areas that must be individually spirit led with guidance. The op received this guidance from her priest, and he stated-there are grey areas.
The op should be applauded for having a strong moral compass, and desire to adhere to church teachings. However, Jesus did not start the church for it to become a legalistic quagmire in cases such as this, that lead His followers away from His church.
M
MacQ
Guest
Yes, Mom…He is in control.
And I’m with you…this thread really went places that boggle the mind.
I will pray for you and your family.
R
Rau
Guest
Did the authors of the Catechism, and the Bishops and Pope who approved it, fail to realise that there are “grey areas”, which turn what they said is wrong, into right? Is that what you believe? By extension, would there be grey areas in other areas of morality, perhaps abortion?
L
LongingSoul
Guest
St John Paul II in many of his writings warned of the *contraceptive mentality *that has replaced the prolife mentality that was once organic to the Catholic spirit. It basically means never viewing fertility as a ‘problem’ or negative aspect ever. But to address whatever the real problem is, as the disease. If the river that runs through the town as its lifeblood is having some problem… the cure is not to stop up the flow of the river, but to deal with the actual problem. Perhaps there is essentially no difference in the final outcome, but the mentality addressing the problem affects how we see ourselves, our earthly purpose, our relationship with our Creator. It has enormous and far reaching implications.
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Rau
Guest
Ok, fair enough - perhaps cancer of the Vas Deferens. That is truly comparable with the hysterectomy scenario.
But what if the couple is gravely concerned (with good reason) about conceiving a seriously ill child. The vasectomy would avoid that unfortunate outcome too. Would this fit the “grey area” you referred to earlier?
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The_Bucket
Guest
The two becoming one flesh is spiritually true, but I mean, I’m not literally in my wife’s body, for instance. So the logic falls apart here.
As another poster stated, then I suppose there are exceptions for abortion? For murder of someone already born? For stealing?
No. Culpability is lessened when there are desperate situations, such as the person who steals food to keep from starving, but that doesn’t make ever make stealing good or even neutral.
Christ most certainly rewrote the rule book and you are right to say that He does not want us to be legalistic. But this is cut-and-dried serious stuff. It’s not “you worked too much on the Sabbath” or “you didn’t wash your hands before eating!” trivial nonsense.
Christ was obviously right to say that the only things that make us impure are evil things that come out of our mouths or live in our souls. But this is not what He was talking about. He was talking about, for instance, people that are not able to make it to Mass on Sundays for reasons outside of their control. Or those who have nothing not being able to help the poor.
“Jesus understands” is not a catch-all. It’s not a “well you put in a good effort, Jesus understands.” That’s not how it works! Christ ransomed His life for us. We must do no less than return the favor… which I know I fail to do every day.
J
Jaaanosik
Guest
Before my reply I want to thank you very much. I really appreciate your responses.
You are the first person with excellent understanding of the discussed subject that I found in very long time.
Let’s talk the relationship and conversation.
It appears that women ‘words’ could be ovum, the men ‘words’ are sperms.
The ovulation suppression pill mutes woman and she does not contribute to the conversation. It’s broken. The woman does not give herself fully.
The condom builds a barrier between the words and they are not exchanged, the conversation is broken again.
It makes sense. The contraception is an easy way how to ‘break’ the conversation.
Let us now analyze the NFP couple. It appears it’s a hard working way how a woman is being muted. She does not contribute to the conversation. The conversation is broken, the woman is not giving herself fully. The ovum is not there as with the ovulation suppression pill.
It appears the ovulation suppression pill and NFP achieve the same thing, the difference is just a way how it’s done.
Now before you say that NFP is natural I’d like to point out that sticking a finger to check the cervix position or thermometer down there is not natural at all.
Thanks,
Jano
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mommy_k
Guest
A grey area exists here as the priest stated. The ccc is meant to lead us to a holy life with Christ, giving us a path which to follow. I try my best to follow it.
There is no compromise when a precious life is in question. There is no debate or grey areas that killing babies is wrong and a criminal act. Right to life also expands and includes this mother as well, and that is the root of the problem here.
M
marywarfield
Guest
Having unsubscribed but found this morning’s posts
so perhaps I missed something a couple of points:
A gray area in culpability cannot ever change that.
follow and counsel others to follow Church teaching
simply TRUST God and TRUST the Church to not steer
them the wrong way?
That is not legalism or hypocrisy- it is simply TRUST
and FAITH.
And if that “legalism” results " in driving one a way
from the Church" is the culpability with those who
TRUST instead of the one who failed to trust or
trusted someone/something more than God and
the Church?
so perhaps I missed something a couple of points:
- The Church teaches that if an act is intrinsically
evil it cannot through some gray area manipulation
become good.
Yes the culpability can be lessened due to stress, illness and
Coercion, but the action remains intrinsically evil.
A gray area in culpability cannot ever change that.
- The constant derogatory attitude toward those who
uphold Church teaching with the various names it
has been called recently this morning
is called legalistic.
follow and counsel others to follow Church teaching
simply TRUST God and TRUST the Church to not steer
them the wrong way?
That is not legalism or hypocrisy- it is simply TRUST
and FAITH.
And if that “legalism” results " in driving one a way
from the Church" is the culpability with those who
TRUST instead of the one who failed to trust or
trusted someone/something more than God and
the Church?
R
Rau
Guest
I think your justification for contraception and / or sterilisation relies principally on preferring that course of action to the alternative of limiting sex. You’ve not commented on why limiting sex is not the preferred option. Is it because you believe agreeing to limit sex would be a greater evil? If so, does the Catechism denounce that evil, or is that also an oversight?
T
The_Bucket
Guest
How about if a wife is incapacitated or killed? Is there a “gray area” that allows a husband to seek out others or self-gratification? I’m not saying that I wouldn’t understand human weakness with the latter, but that doesn’t make it good or neutral. It’s always wrong.
How about if a husband is physically unable to have relations anymore? Is it morally good or neutral for a wife to find other ways to be intimately satisfied? No. Again, I’m not saying I couldn’t understand or empathize with human weakness. I can. But it’s still always wrong.
And the same goes here. I do think it is a great strain to limit physical intimacy between spouses. I’m not one to downplay it. It’s frustrating. It’s a rough. NFP even if it’s used perfectly is not a picnic.
But then again, life in general ain’t a picnic. Again, the yoke of Christ is only easy when our wills fully conform to His. And I don’t know about y’all, but my will isn’t anywhere close to His right now.
How about if a husband is physically unable to have relations anymore? Is it morally good or neutral for a wife to find other ways to be intimately satisfied? No. Again, I’m not saying I couldn’t understand or empathize with human weakness. I can. But it’s still always wrong.
And the same goes here. I do think it is a great strain to limit physical intimacy between spouses. I’m not one to downplay it. It’s frustrating. It’s a rough. NFP even if it’s used perfectly is not a picnic.
But then again, life in general ain’t a picnic. Again, the yoke of Christ is only easy when our wills fully conform to His. And I don’t know about y’all, but my will isn’t anywhere close to His right now.
S
shelby_sun
Guest
I’ll make this decision with prayer, contemplation and with our priest, who God put in our lives for a reason. He is in control, right?
Absolutely. Sorry for my part in this, although I have tried to fight some people off, I often do not do it in the best way. This last part of your post is the most important as this is your life life guided by God.
I wish you the best of luck and a very blessed life.
Absolutely. Sorry for my part in this, although I have tried to fight some people off, I often do not do it in the best way. This last part of your post is the most important as this is your life life guided by God.
I wish you the best of luck and a very blessed life.
M
marywarfield
Guest
So is it your contention that gray areas only exist
in matters of conception?
That no gray areas exist in abortion?
That a woman due to cancer or some other
life threatening situation has no relief from culpability
in abortion while in conception gray areas exist?
Is that not rather arbitrary and harsh?
R
Rence
Guest
Yes, some of the responses are a bit creepy, and in more ways than one. But you should have expected that. This forum is pretty large, and includes various people from all parts of the spectrum from liberal to extreme scrupulous and everything in between . Add that to the fact that the internet enables people to post without thinking about the people on the other side of the computer. You’ll get used to it, if you hang out here longer
You’ll learn to weed out the weird, upsetting posts.Sounds like a great plan. Your priest knows the Canon, the Catechism, all the rules and laws, and he knows how to apply them to everyday situations. That’s his job. That’s what he’s trained to do. If in doubt, you can always contact your Bishop.
Good luck to you and your family, I will pray for you and I wish you the very best!
T
The_Bucket
Guest
How about gray areas when serving the poor? Feeding the hungry? Clothing the naked? Visiting the imprisoned? (Not the wrongly imprisoned mind you, just the imprisoned). Was Jesus just saying “here are some good things to do”? No!
He said “Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.” And then we are sent off to eternal punishment.
I’m in some trouble! I follow NFP and it sucks sometimes and I teach the confirmation students in my parish and lade da. Guess what I’m not doing? Visiting the imprisoned. Caring for the sick in the hospital. Welcoming strangers. And I’m certainly not giving as much as I should to feed the hungry and give drink to the thirsty.
Why? Why am I not doing these things? I am afraid. I am afraid that God will ask me to do more. I’m afraid that if I put some effort into this, that He will demand more of me. He will really and truly demand my life. I know He will! I just said it five minutes ago that God demands our lives… and that includes me. But I don’t want to give Him my life. That terrifies me. I want to live in my little middle-class American bubble and be modestly financially secure and all that good stuff.
I don’t want to do those other things because it might take up my time and money. Especially my money. I don’t have a lot of it to begin with! But I know I’m going to have to give it up. Because it’s the thing I’m most tightly clutching. Those things I most tightly hold that are of this Earth… those are the things God wants. I know He does. But I keep telling Him “NO” or at least “Not yet.”
And so again, I fully empathize with someone who does not want to pick up this cross. It’s hard. It’s painful. It’s “not fair.” I’m only begrudgingly picking up the cross that Christ lays on us when it comes to our sexual lives. But I’m flat-out refusing to pick up my own cross in so many other situations. I’m sure the OP and other posters here are picking up those crosses even if they look at this one and say “No, this is too hard and it’s not fair.” That’s why I don’t judge.
But I’m not going to say “It’s ok. You don’t have to pick this one up.” You do! You absolutely do! And I’ve got to go pick up mine too. I would hope that my fellow Catholics would encourage me to give more to the poor and visit the sick and comfort the imprisoned instead of saying “Naw, you don’t really have to do that.” Yes. Yes I really do.
He said “Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.” And then we are sent off to eternal punishment.
I’m in some trouble! I follow NFP and it sucks sometimes and I teach the confirmation students in my parish and lade da. Guess what I’m not doing? Visiting the imprisoned. Caring for the sick in the hospital. Welcoming strangers. And I’m certainly not giving as much as I should to feed the hungry and give drink to the thirsty.
Why? Why am I not doing these things? I am afraid. I am afraid that God will ask me to do more. I’m afraid that if I put some effort into this, that He will demand more of me. He will really and truly demand my life. I know He will! I just said it five minutes ago that God demands our lives… and that includes me. But I don’t want to give Him my life. That terrifies me. I want to live in my little middle-class American bubble and be modestly financially secure and all that good stuff.
I don’t want to do those other things because it might take up my time and money. Especially my money. I don’t have a lot of it to begin with! But I know I’m going to have to give it up. Because it’s the thing I’m most tightly clutching. Those things I most tightly hold that are of this Earth… those are the things God wants. I know He does. But I keep telling Him “NO” or at least “Not yet.”
And so again, I fully empathize with someone who does not want to pick up this cross. It’s hard. It’s painful. It’s “not fair.” I’m only begrudgingly picking up the cross that Christ lays on us when it comes to our sexual lives. But I’m flat-out refusing to pick up my own cross in so many other situations. I’m sure the OP and other posters here are picking up those crosses even if they look at this one and say “No, this is too hard and it’s not fair.” That’s why I don’t judge.
But I’m not going to say “It’s ok. You don’t have to pick this one up.” You do! You absolutely do! And I’ve got to go pick up mine too. I would hope that my fellow Catholics would encourage me to give more to the poor and visit the sick and comfort the imprisoned instead of saying “Naw, you don’t really have to do that.” Yes. Yes I really do.
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