Should we respectfully leave the Church

[MacQ]

I really appreciate it. I don’t have any Catholic friends who abide by Church teaching in this area, and our priest has counseled us that it would be acceptable to discern a vasectomy. I am really just so tired of thinking about it, talking about it, worrying about it, and trying to find a solution that does not seem to be available.

AvoMom:
In view of some of the shockingly inane and obtuse advice you’ve gotten so far on this thread, I have to agree with those who have said not to rely on what you read here…
Including what I say.
But I’ll proffer the following anyway, just to add a counterbalance to some of what’s been said.
Here goes:

Feed your baby for as long as you think he needs breastfed, as you have with your other children. Weaning him so you can do NFP is an inane idea that you should ignore. The children you have need what they need.

So does your marriage. Know that the catholic church recognizes that your marital relations have a deep and vital value beyond procreation. So that ‘abstaining for 20 years’ idea is really not reasonable and certainly not supportive of a healthy family life, the center of which is a healthy marriage.

A mother’s life is important to her existing children, which is why in (rare) medical cases where a choice between lives had to be made, a catholic hospital would save the mother. If your health situation is endangered, I think anyone would tell you that you can in good conscience avoid another pregnancy.
That’s very different than someone using means for purely selfish reasons.

Listen to your priest.
Finally, by leaving the church, you really must mean leaving your faith…changing what you believe. Otherwise, what would leaving the church accomplish? I don’t think that’s what you want.
We can at times “scruple”…I well know it.
Good conscience…common sense.

This is tough stuff. I wish you well.

 

[Ingeniero]

May I suggest that you get in touch with Dr. George Delgado, catholic.com/profiles/dr-george-delgado,. he is a Catholic Answers resource in fertility, pregnancy and NFP.

www.colfs.org. with which he is also associated may be able to help you and your husband as well.

 

[marywarfield]

I don’t mind being told to stick to Church teaching, and I know that doctrine states that there is zero gray area. But what I don’t need, I guess, is people trivializing how difficult this is and chalking it up as “just a cross to bear” or “your husband is a selfish pervert if he won’t abstain for 20 years.” At this point, my husband does not see that willingly accepting that cross when there is a more convenient alternative to achieve the same goal as acceptable to our union.

And yes, my mom did go through menopause in her 50s. So did her sister and my grandmother.

I believe the question was- should we respectfully leave
the church?

You have not yet explained how that enters in.
I understand no pregnancy, not wanting to abstain
worried about vasectomy etc.

What I don’t understand is how leaving the Church
alters anything?

 

[patsa]

I believe the question was- should we respectfully leave
the church?

You have not yet explained how that enters in.
I understand no pregnancy, not wanting to abstain
worried about vasectomy etc.

What I don’t understand is how leaving the Church
alters anything?

I think what she’s saying is that she feels like she’d be disrespecting the Church by continuing to call herself Catholic while having let her husband get a vasectomy.

(I disagree of course, and believe she should stay in the Church regardless of what decision her and her husband make for their family and their marriage. But that is what I believe her concern to be.)

 

[gardenswithkids]

Hello…PS. we have talked with our priest, and while he did offer NFP as a solution, even he said that if circumstances were this dire, that God understands there is sometimes a gray area and we have to go with our conscience.

The fact that you decided to post this question here tells me that your conscience isn’t okay with a vasectomy. I’m so sorry that you got that “follow your conscience” advice which so often leaves people with well-formed consciences in the difficult position of having to argue with their spouses over what the Church really teaches. Such advice also leaves some priests in the very difficult position of having to answer to God for the sins of those whom they lead astray.

You have talked to your priest, but you still came here. Here, to this place. If you’ve been here before then you know that this website is frequented by NFP users and other Catholics who follow the Church teachings and encourage others to do the same. You know what the Church teaches, and I think that even advice to “follow your conscience” leads you in a position of following what the Church teaches.

No, you should not respectfully leave the Church. You should go to Church and pray really, really, really hard for your husband and for your priest. They need your prayers. And you can be assured that you have my prayers for this situation.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I think what she’s saying is that she feels like she’d be disrespecting the Church by continuing to call herself Catholic while having let her husband get a vasectomy.

(I disagree of course, and believe she should stay in the Church regardless of what decision her and her husband make for their family and their marriage. But that is what I believe her concern to be.)

Yes I think so but I hope the OP understands that it would be far more disrespectful to leave the church.

The church isn’t full of saints.

Worse case scenario you do this, why can’t you go to church? If you believe you are in mortal sin then go to church and skip communion.

That’s a far better plan than just abandoning the faith.

That said, I think a far better alternative can be found with proper guidance. Take your time. Talk to lots of people.

I second the recommendation for dr Delgado.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I think what she’s saying is that she feels like she’d be disrespecting the Church by continuing to call herself Catholic while having let her husband get a vasectomy.

(I disagree of course, and believe she should stay in the Church regardless of what decision her and her husband make for their family and their marriage. But that is what I believe her concern to be.)

Why would one be “in” a Church that it did not think was salvific and correct on such an issue as heaven or hell?

The minute I reject the infallible teachings of the Church, is the minute I am calling myself anything other than Catholic. I may not understand the teachings, I may not even agree on some of the small details, but in the big ones, you know like eternal damnation for mortal sin… I have to choose to obey.

How in the world can one believe that the Church has the idea of Transubstantiation right, the resurrection, the appearance of bread and wine but the substance of Christ. It goes against our very logical existence. How can one believe that, but then think that God himself led the Church astray and is wrong about a sexual act.

 

[Rau]

…

So, with those two things in mind my husband would like to get a vasectomy. I won’t like - it sounds wonderful. However, we are both Catholic and we know it’s a sin. I have told him that I do not want him to do it, as I fear he will burn in hell for it. He says he will do anything to protect me and our marriage. ** He says there is fundamentally no difference between using NFP to avoid pregnancy and using a vasectomy** - both are purported to have the same “failure” rate. I will be very honest with you and say that I do not truly believe that we will be punished by God for prayerfully discerning that we need to not have more pregnancies and using modern medicine to achieve it. BUT, I do think there is value in being obedient to The Church, even if The Church is wrong on this point. If I am to call myself a Catholic, I need to abide by the “rules” whether they are reasonable or not.

I’ve told my husband that The Church would say we can do two things: Use NFP and hope that it does not fail and that we never make an error, or abstain for the next 20ish years (I am 33.) He says that is preposterous and that, while he is totally fine with limiting sexual activity, it is unacceptable to say that his sex life is totally over.

I assume you both know why a Vasectomy and NFP are not “effectively the same thing”? One says have sex whenever you wish, and the other says, have sex during infertile times.

Given that you’ve stated the two have the same failure rate, and given your husband is fine with limiting sexual activity, and given your desire to follow church teaching, a decision in favour of NFP seems to be clear.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Yes I think so but I hope the OP understands that it would be far more disrespectful to leave the church.

The church isn’t full of saints.

Worse case scenario you do this, why can’t you go to church? If you believe you are in mortal sin then go to church and skip communion.

That’s a far better plan than just abandoning the faith.

That said, I think a far better alternative can be found with proper guidance. Take your time. Talk to lots of people.

I second the recommendation for dr Delgado.

The Church is full of saints. It is one of the things that separates us from other Christian faiths. We HAVE saints to guide us, to help us. And we are all CALLED to be saints. If at the end of your life you are not a saint, you WILL be in hell. That is just the brass tacks part of it.

It is true that the Church is a hospital for sinners. But in effect ONLY saints will be part of the eternal Church.

But yes, there are FAR better plans than abandoning the faith. And doctor Delgado is an excellent suggestion.

 

[patsa]

Why would one be “in” a Church that it did not think was salvific and correct on such an issue as heaven or hell?

The minute I reject the infallible teachings of the Church, is the minute I am calling myself anything other than Catholic. I may not understand the teachings, I may not even agree on some of the small details, but in the big ones, you know like eternal damnation for mortal sin… I have to choose to obey.

How in the world can one believe that the Church has the idea of Transubstantiation right, the resurrection, the appearance of bread and wine but the substance of Christ. It goes against our very logical existence. How can one believe that, but then think that God himself led the Church astray and is wrong about a sexual act.

I think she should stay.

 

[patsa]

The Church is full of saints. It is one of the things that separates us from other Christian faiths. We HAVE saints to guide us, to help us. And we are all CALLED to be saints. ** If at the end of your life you are not a saint, you WILL be in hell.** That is just the brass tacks part of it.

This is not true. A saint is a person who goes directly to heaven after they die. If you do not go directly to heaven, you don’t necessarily go to Hell… you could go to purgatory. The belief in purgatory separates us from the protestants. Also, there are plenty of those in the church who don’t go directly to heaven.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I think she should stay.

So do I!!!

The difference is that I think she should stay in a state of grace. And make a Holy decision. No matter the difficult aspect of it. Believe me I sympathize and I know it is reality that it is harder than “just do the right thing” Be we live in a faith where people died because they would not even utter words against their faith. We live in that faith today where people die, orphan children and lose their lives because of faith. But here, here we talk of sex. Sex of which could be sufficiently satisfied with NFP. As a former NFP instructor I counseled many people on how this is not only a great thing but how it was consistent with attaining heaven. This case would appear to be an NFP slam dunk.

I think the idea that the Bible presents that to eat and drink unworthily certainly applies to the idea of staying in the Church in a potential state of damnation and reamining outside.

technically it is your actions that decide if you have “left the Church” or not. And unrepentant mortal sin would certainly be leaving the Church of God, for eternity, don’t you think?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

This is not true. A saint is a person who goes directly to heaven after they die. If you do not go directly to heaven, you don’t necessarily go to Hell… you could go to purgatory. The belief in purgatory separates us from the protestants. Also, there are plenty of those in the church who don’t go directly to heaven.

nope. Completely wrong.

newadvent.org/cathen/04171a.htm

 

[patsa]

nope. Completely wrong.

newadvent.org/cathen/04171a.htm

Which part is completely wrong?

 

[patsa]

nope. Completely wrong.

newadvent.org/cathen/04171a.htm

I said 5 things.

1. That your assertion that “If at the end of your life you are not a saint, you WILL be in hell” is incorrect.
2. That a saint is a person who is in heaven after they die.
3. That heaven and hell are not the only 2 afterlife destinations, there is a Purgatory as well.
4. That Catholics believe in purgatory, while protestants don’t.
5. That there are many Catholics who go to purgatory before making it to heaven.

So, which part is “completely wrong?” Or is it all of it?

 

[Rau]

So do I!!!

The difference is that I think she should stay in a state of grace. And make a Holy decision.

And as I read the OP, she has arrived at exactly that decision, though not acknowledged it, as explained in this post:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11932123&postcount=29

 

[patsa]

So do I!!!

The difference is that I think she should stay in a state of grace. And make a Holy decision. No matter the difficult aspect of it. Believe me I sympathize and I know it is reality that it is harder than “just do the right thing” Be we live in a faith where people died because they would not even utter words against their faith. We live in that faith today where people die, orphan children and lose their lives because of faith. But here, here we talk of sex. Sex of which could be sufficiently satisfied with NFP. As a former NFP instructor I counseled many people on how this is not only a great thing but how it was consistent with attaining heaven. This case would appear to be an NFP slam dunk.

I think the idea that the Bible presents that to eat and drink unworthily certainly applies to the idea of staying in the Church in a potential state of damnation and reamining outside.

My point was that even if they decide on the vasectomy, I still think she shouldn’t leave the Church.

technically it is your actions that decide if you have “left the Church” or not. And unrepentant mortal sin would certainly be leaving the Church of God, for eternity, don’t you think?

Once you’re baptized Catholic, you are Catholic for life. So you still are technically “part of the Church” even if you commit mortal sins and stop attending mass. So when I say “leave the Church” I am merely talking about ceasing to go to catholic mass, ceasing to raise your kids catholic, ceasing to call yourself catholic, etc.

 

[maryjk]

I can’t wean, she’s not a year yet. My cycles usually come back between 18-24 months postpartum anyway, nursing or not. So I do have that to look forward to.

Actually, you can wean before she is a year. You may choose not too, but you can.

You should also realize that regardless of your birth control, if you have sex, you have a chance of getting pregnant. Yes, even with a vasectomy. The only 100% sure way to not get pregnant is to not have sex.

That said, NFP can be very effective to avoid pregnancy. For those of us with truly serious reasons to not get pregnant, for those of us that don’t push the limits, it works. It has worked for me for over 10 years. But I never push the limits.

 

[OraLabora]

I think we can all agree that using artificial means to avoid conception constitutes grave matter. Grave matter is one of the three necessary components of mortal sin, the other two been full knowledge and full consent.

Whether the pastoral difficulties in this case are such that they mitigate the freedom to fully consent of the will (in other words the extenuating circumstances are such that the culpability is diminished), is something that can only be determined with one’s pastor or in the confessional.

The very most folks can do here is say what the Church teaches. Anything beyond that is above our pay grade.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I think we can all agree that using artificial means to avoid conception constitutes grave matter. Grave matter is one of the three necessary components of mortal sin, the other two been full knowledge and full consent.

Whether the pastoral difficulties in this case are such that they mitigate the freedom to fully consent of the will (in other words the extenuating circumstances are such that the culpability is diminished), is something that can only be determined with one’s pastor or in the confessional.

The very most folks can do here is say what the Church teaches. Anything beyond that is above our pay grade.

Yes, and the Church teaches that the pastoral advice she received (if accurately relayed) is wrong.