Should we respectfully leave the Church

[Hoosier_Daddy]

What’s frustrating is when you misrepresent what I say by saying it’s completely wrong when it clearly wasn’t.

ok.

Sorry.

Can you comment on the actual post I responded with. Did you appreciate it. Did you find it helpful? Do you disagree and if so can you explain?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Someone brought up a good point. For grave matter to be a mortal sin, free consent of the will is needed. I would argue that given the extreme circumstances you are in, free consent of the will is absent. You said so yourself, you feel as though there is no other way out. It’s a life and death situation which you feel is too serious to gamble with NFP, and it is a situation that would put a huge strain on your marriage and your family if total abstinence was practiced. Free consent of the will? Doesn’t sound like it to me.

Interesting. And before we write a treatise on Free Will, let me understand. Are you arguing that because following something is difficult that Free Will is negated?

 

[patsa]

ok.

Sorry.

Can you comment on the actual post I responded with. Did you appreciate it. Did you find it helpful? Do you disagree and if so can you explain?

I don’t want to drag out something that is off topic. The response I already gave is all I need to say about it. You wrote “completely wrong” on a whole paragraph I typed out which made several points, when the only thing that you actually thought was wrong was the part about about going directly into heaven.

 

[patsa]

Interesting. And before we write a treatise on Free Will, let me understand. Are you arguing that because following something is difficult that Free Will is negated?

No. “Just because something is difficult” is not at all what I wrote. I already wrote exactly what I mean.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I don’t want to drag out something that is off topic. The response I already gave is all I need to say about it. You wrote “completely wrong” on a whole paragraph I typed out which made several points, when the only thing that you actually thought was wrong was the part about about going directly into heaven.

In the words of Elsa. Constantly sung in my house at all hours of the day…

“Let it Go! Let it Go! Turn away and slam the Door.”

 

[patsa]

In the words of Elsa. Constantly sung in my house at all hours of the day…

Funny you’re telling ME to “let it go” when my last response was me saying that I didn’t want to drag it out by answering all YOUR questions about it. But I agree. I’m ready to let it go, which is precisely why I told you I’ve already said all I’m gonna say on the issue.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Someone brought up a good point. For grave matter to be a mortal sin, free consent of the will is needed. I would argue that given the extreme circumstances you are in, free consent of the will is absent. You said so yourself, you feel as though there is no other way out. It’s a life and death situation which you feel is too serious to gamble with NFP, and it is a situation that would put a huge strain on your marriage and your family if total abstinence was practiced. Free consent of the will? Doesn’t sound like it to me.

Ok. I am confused by what you wrote then.

You said given the extreme circumstances that consent of free will is absent.

You then say that no, difficult circumstances do not negate free will.

Can you elaborate on this idea and what extreme circumstances you are referring to?

Can you use Catholic theology to back it up?

I would hate to say you were “completely” wrong on this…

 

[patsa]

Ok. I am confused by what you wrote then.

You said given the extreme circumstances that consent of free will is absent.

You then say that no, difficult circumstances do not negate free will.

Can you elaborate on this idea and what extreme circumstances you are referring to?

Can you use Catholic theology to back it up?

I would hate to say you were “completely” wrong on this…

A lot of things are “difficult.” That doesn’t necessarily mean it puts our life at risk, and our family’s well being on the line. I used the word extreme, not the word difficult.

I’m not sure why you are asking what “extreme circumstances” I am referring to, when I very clearly stated them both on the very post you initially responded to. But I reiterated them just above, in case you still don’t know.

To back up what? To back up the fact that full consent of the will is necessary for full culpability in grave matter to make it a mortal sin?

Let’s make this simple: we clearly disagree on what would qualify as someone not having full consent of the will. And that’s all there is to it. You gave the OP your take, I gave her mine.

 

[marywarfield]

Thank you for your replies. Sorry I have not been back sooner - as I am sure you know life is super busy with four little kids. I appreciate everyone who took the time to give advice or support.

You are right, this is too complex for online. I just don’t have anyone to talk to about it! My friends say I am crazy for not just doing what I think is best. Even my Catholic friends think the Church’s rule on contraception in cases of health issues is ridiculous, as does my spouse, and apparently so does our priest.

I’m just tired of arguing and debating.

I guess the reason I titled this post “should we leave” is because instead of The Church making us feel hopeful, inspired and at peace, this disagreement is causing us pain, heartache and leaving a bad taste in our mouths. I have never been the type to just take the easy way out, but sometimes you have to acknowledge when a system isn’t working. I love so much about our faith, but this topic hits painfully close to home for me and I definitely feel that the “black and white” perspective is damaging my family. It’s so easy for people who are past their childbearing years, single, or who have easy pregnancies to say “you have no choice.” It’s much different when your life is at stake.

I know that some will say if we only obeyed the teaching then we would be happier and have more peace. Believe me, I have really thought about that and prayed about it. A ton. We could use a conservative form of NFP after my baby weans (I am not interested in weaning prematurely), but to be honest I am so fertile, I know both my husband and I would panic every month. He has said that it would ruin sex for him to know that we were doing things in a way that was “open to life” when in fact we are not open to getting pregnant. Obviously if I did get pregnant we would never abort, but it really might destroy our family.

His solution is to get a vasectomy, be tested every 6 months, and use condoms on top of that. I don’t know. If that sends people to hell, then most people in the developed world are headed south. That seems ridiculous. I hope God knows my heart, my intentions, my prayers, my family and has mercy on us.

The Church has spoken time and again on this issue. Unfortunately
the wiggle room people look for is nit in reality there. The
Church is adamant, If deep in your heart you believe the Church is wrong
in this matter and cannot bring yourself to attend
patiently without receiving the Eucharistc and wait for
Gods answer- then yes you should
leave the Church until you are able to accept the Church’s teaching
on this.

I will say I had the opposite problem. First could not
conceive a child and when I did the baby was stillborn.
We were told time and again that pregnancy would kill
both me and my babies, we should adopt and stop
trying to have our own, and when I became pregnant using
NFP backwards so to speak lol
with the two I have living they were just awful pregnancies
that the doctors wanted to abort to save my life. I refused
and my husband supported me in the refusal. I had a stroke
with the last child.
Ultimately we had two very healthy babies and then
we abstained for a while. Now at my age we don’t need to.
Lol.
To me, the only people I had on my side were in the
Church and I found Church teaching to be comforting
and enormously strengthening and resolving.
It’s not pleasant to deliberately put your life at risk
based on hope and faith.
I understand your fear and anger.
But you only have the two choices- stay or leave.

I hope you make the right choice.

 

[Mark121359]

Someone brought up a good point. For grave matter to be a mortal sin, free consent of the will is needed. I would argue that given the extreme circumstances you are in, free consent of the will is absent. You said so yourself, you feel as though there is no other way out. It’s a life and death situation which you feel is too serious to gamble with NFP, and it is a situation that would put a huge strain on your marriage and your family if total abstinence was practiced. Free consent of the will? Doesn’t sound like it to me.

As many have already stated here accurately, the OP’s situation is far too serious and complex to render any rational advice on this forum. The absolute best thing anyone here could do is pray for them, and to implore them not to leave the Church and ***not ***to abandon her teachings. Correct me if I’m wrong. But you appear to be saying that since the OP feels that her life is in danger, and abstaining would put a huge strain on their marriage, that under these stressful circumstances, free consent would be absent, thus, her husband getting a vasectomy may not be considered a mortal sin…is that correct? As Hoosier Daddy stated to you earlier; You are clearly advocating a position against the Church. Against the OP’s very soul. I always think of what Our Lord said about scandal; ***“Occasions for stumbling are bound to come, but woe to anyone by whom they come! It would be better for you if a millstone were hung around your neck and you were thrown into the sea than for you to cause one of these little ones to stumble.” *** It doesn’t get any clearer than that! I’d be real, real careful about advising or suggesting that the OP’s situation is unique, and that they could do something that the Church teaches is grave matter without committing a grave sin. And as far as her parish priest saying “that if circumstances were this dire, that God understands there is sometimes a gray area and we have to go with our conscience”…I’d be looking for another parish for the sake of my soul! Just my :twocents:

***Peace, Mark ***

 

[patsa]

Correct me if I’m wrong. But you appear to be saying that since the OP feels that her life is in danger, and abstaining would put a huge strain on their marriage, that under these stressful circumstances, free consent would be absent, thus, her husband getting a vasectomy may not be considered a mortal sin…is that correct?

That is correct. I believe that culpability may be greatly lessened to the point of it not being a mortal sin if you are in a situation where you feel like if you don’t do something (in this case, allow your husband to get a vasectomy) you will either die, or ruin your family.

It’s like if someone held a gun up to my head and said “do ___ otherwise you might die” I would feel as though my full consent of the will was being compromised. And so, even if ___ was grave matter, I don’t think I would be guilty of mortal sin if I followed through.

Likewise, if someone said “do ___ otherwise great harm may come to your family/marriage” I would also feel as though my full consent of the will was being compromised. And so, even if ___ was grave matter, I don’t think I would be guilty of mortal sin if I followed through.

You are correct that she ultimately needs to speak to a priest and not someone on this forum. Her priest seems to have told her that given the life or death situation (or the compromised well being of her marriage/family situation) she is under would put her in a grey area. Should she keep looking for different priests until she finds one who tells her she absolutely in no way should allow her husband to get a vasectomy regardless of what that would entail? And then what? I gave my personal opinion and thoughts on the matter, as everyone else here has done.

 

[patsa]

Thank you for your replies. Sorry I have not been back sooner - as I am sure you know life is super busy with four little kids. I appreciate everyone who took the time to give advice or support.

You are right, this is too complex for online. I just don’t have anyone to talk to about it! My friends say I am crazy for not just doing what I think is best. Even my Catholic friends think the Church’s rule on contraception in cases of health issues is ridiculous, as does my spouse, and apparently so does our priest.

I’m just tired of arguing and debating.

I guess the reason I titled this post “should we leave” is because instead of The Church making us feel hopeful, inspired and at peace, this disagreement is causing us pain, heartache and leaving a bad taste in our mouths. I have never been the type to just take the easy way out, but sometimes you have to acknowledge when a system isn’t working. I love so much about our faith, but this topic hits painfully close to home for me and I definitely feel that the “black and white” perspective is damaging my family. It’s so easy for people who are past their childbearing years, single, or who have easy pregnancies to say “you have no choice.” It’s much different when your life is at stake.

I know that some will say if we only obeyed the teaching then we would be happier and have more peace. Believe me, I have really thought about that and prayed about it. A ton. We could use a conservative form of NFP after my baby weans (I am not interested in weaning prematurely), but to be honest I am so fertile, I know both my husband and I would panic every month. He has said that it would ruin sex for him to know that we were doing things in a way that was “open to life” when in fact we are not open to getting pregnant. Obviously if I did get pregnant we would never abort, but it really might destroy our family.

His solution is to get a vasectomy, be tested every 6 months, and use condoms on top of that. I don’t know. If that sends people to hell, then most people in the developed world are headed south. That seems ridiculous. ** I hope God knows my heart, my intentions, my prayers, my family and has mercy on us.**

In my opinion, I would say He does. God bless and I hope you find peace.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Wouldn’t it be nice if we had some sort of place we could go to find the answers to these things… instead of personal opinions. Either of Clergy or strangers.
If there were some resource that contained inerrant definitive Church Teaching?

Oh wait!
The Church, in her infinite wisdom and mercy has provided this!

2399 The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception

Wow. It directly speaks to the EXACT issue here…

Read more here:
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm

 

[Mark121359]

That is correct. I believe that culpability may be greatly lessened to the point of it not being a mortal sin if you are in a situation where you feel like if you don’t do something (in this case, allow your husband to get a vasectomy) you will either die, or ruin your family.

Boy, that’s one heck of an assumption! The conditions for mortal sin from the CCC are thus; Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent. The matter being discussed here is grave matter, and the Op herself admits *"However, we are both Catholic and we know it’s a sin." * And they seem to be willing to reject Church Teachings and in fact walk away from the Church altogether. I deeply sympathize with the OP’s difficult situation, but for any of us here to suggest to her “that culpability may be greatly lessened to the point of it not being a mortal sin” is extremely uncharitable, and in fact is doing the OP and her husband an extreme injustice IMHO.

Wouldn’t it be nice if we had some sort of place we could go to find the answers to these things… instead of personal opinions. Either of Clergy or strangers.
If there were some resource that contained inerrant definitive Church Teaching?

Oh wait!
The Church, in her infinite wisdom and mercy has provided this!

2399 The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception

Yes this!

Peace, Mark

 

[LongingSoul]

He has said that it would ruin sex for him to know that we were doing things in a way that was “open to life” when in fact we are not open to getting pregnant. Obviously if I did get pregnant we would never abort, but it really might destroy our family.

His solution is to get a vasectomy, be tested every 6 months, and use condoms on top of that. I don’t know. If that sends people to hell, then most people in the developed world are headed south. That seems ridiculous. I hope God knows my heart, my intentions, my prayers, my family and has mercy on us.

I know that by nature we women give our husbands a certain authority over us by virtue of their higher natural need for sexual release, but a husband has a duty to also respect nature by accepting abstinence in marital life in favour of the wellbeing of his wife.

There are very few people that can’t find a high degree of confidence in NFP even if it is an extremely conservative form of NFP… and work that into the fabric of their love as husband and wife.

If we as wives simply accept that our husband is the type to have a hissy fit or carry on like a pork chop or even leave the marriage because we want to conform to Gods plan for our marriage, we are accepting an unsound marriage. If your husband was building your house and wanted to compromise the foundations in some way, he is in effect providing a harmful, unsound home for you and his babies. Insist on his best quality work or nothing.

 

[FLCathMom]

We could use a conservative form of NFP after my baby weans (I am not interested in weaning prematurely), but to be honest I am so fertile, I know both my husband and I would panic every month.

You don’t need regular cycles in order to use NFP effectively! My husband lost his job while I was pregnant with my 8th child last year. I have had 4 kids in the last 5 years (very fertile!) and have irregular periods even without breastfeeding. My son is still nursing now (15 months old) and we are using NFP.

The Marquette model is specifically for breastfeeding mothers who have not had a period yet. nfp.marquette.edu/sc_breastfeed_monitor.php They have a method using the Clearblue Fertility Monitor and one using Mucus. Check it out!

 

[OraLabora]

Certainly we fail because we are not always willing to be good. However, we are capable of it with the help of the Holy Spirit. It is a dogma that God gives all the just sufficent grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufficiens) for the observation of the Divine Commandments.

True, but it’s not an on-off switch. Sexual sin, especially habitual sexual sin, often requires quite a bit of effort, training, and self-discipline to overcome. It is after all one of the most powerful human drives.

It can only happen through a process of inner conversion and growth in humility.

All of monastic life is built upon this process. Without the inner conversion it’s only window dressing and we are bound to fail and fail hard sooner or later.

 

[patsa]

Boy, that’s one heck of an assumption! The conditions for mortal sin from the CCC are thus; Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent. The matter being discussed here is grave matter, and the Op herself admits "However, we are both Catholic and we know it’s a sin." And they seem to be willing to reject Church Teachings and in fact walk away from the Church altogether. I deeply sympathize with the OP’s difficult situation, but for any of us here to suggest to her “that culpability may be greatly lessened to the point of it not being a mortal sin” is extremely uncharitable, and in fact is doing the OP and her husband an extreme injustice IMHO.

I believe culpability can be lessened even when you know something is grave matter. Like I said, full consent of the will is another necessary component, along with knowledge and intention. I think full consent of the will may be compromised if we feel so backed up into a corner that either we die or our family is greatly harmed. I have seen other posters suggest many times here before that a poster in question’s culpability/consent of the will may be lessened for other grave matter due to things like addiction, being emotionally distraught, desperation, heck even for being a teenage boy (when the subject is masturbation). I’ve never seen anyone else call those people out for being uncharitable for saying it though.

It’s just an opinion (or like you said, assumption). You are correct that none of us here can say for sure either way, whether the OP would be guilty of a mortal sin, or whether her culpability would be lessened due to the extreme life/death situation she is in. Since none of us have the ability to truly look into her heart, none of us can ever say for sure. But I don’t see anything wrong with giving our opinion based on our understanding of mortal sin. You seem to be of the opinion that she would be guilty of mortal sin, I have the opinion that she wouldn’t. So in that respect, we are both “giving our assumption.”

Would you be able to address the latter part of my post? This part:

It’s like if someone held a gun up to my head and said “do ___ otherwise you might die” I would feel as though my full consent of the will was being compromised. And so, even if ___ was grave matter, I don’t think I would be guilty of mortal sin if I followed through.

Likewise, if someone said “do ___ otherwise great harm may come to your family/marriage” I would also feel as though my full consent of the will was being compromised. And so, even if ___ was grave matter, I don’t think I would be guilty of mortal sin if I followed through.

You are correct that she ultimately needs to speak to a priest and not someone on this forum. Her priest seems to have told her that given the life or death situation (or the compromised well being of her marriage/family situation) she is under would put her in a grey area. Should she keep looking for different priests until she finds one who tells her she absolutely in no way should allow her husband to get a vasectomy regardless of what that would entail? And then what? I gave my personal opinion and thoughts on the matter, as everyone else here has done.

…It all goes together, so I feel like it needs to be addressed as such.

 

[Lillibut]

If we as wives simply accept that our husband is the type to have a hissy fit or carry on like a pork chop or even leave the marriage because we want to conform to Gods plan for our marriage, we are accepting an unsound marriage. If your husband was building your house and wanted to compromise the foundations in some way, he is in effect providing a harmful, unsound home for you and his babies. Insist on his best quality work or nothing./QUOTE]

That last part worries me. What do you mean by “best…or nothing”? What if he can’t, in good conscience or willingly, provide his/the “best”? What would “nothing” mean in the context of the OP? No marital relations? No marriage? What?

I’m also concerned about the burdens being placed on the OP. Some of the posts in this thread are putting a great deal of personal culpability on her shoulders for something which is, ultimately, her husband’s decision. Not hers. We should be careful not to burden her with a sense of guilt or imply that she is equally culpable if he decides to undergo a vasectomy. Ultimately, he bears that culpability. Unless she has actively encouraged or even urged him to do so for her sake she is not culpable.

I agree that prayers are needed and that we should trust God to guide both the OP and husband at this time. He is always there, especially when He is needed the most. We only have to look for Him. Trust is the hardest part. By choosing to follow church teaching in being “open to life” we are not trusting NFP, we are trusting God to know what is right and best for us. Trusting that much is REALLY hard, I know. It also makes for a challenging marriage, as it is unlikely each member has the same level of trust.

 

[Rau]

It’s not pleasant to deliberately put your life at risk
based on hope and faith.

You are clearly very brave. But i do not follow what part Faith takes in a decision to put ones life in genuine peril by choosing to conceive. If you already had a child , would you still have chosen this path?