Should we respectfully leave the Church

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Thank you. I’ve been looking at the Marquette Model site. It doesn’t seem to have a way to find a local teacher. I searched on our archdiocese website and the CCL, and there are no longer ANY NFP instructors within 50 miles of my home. None, not for any method. Is Marquette something you just have to “teach yourself?”

Sadly there is only one couple in my old diocese out west. The website says there are two but there is only one. For an entire state. And although they are certified to teach multiple methods I am not sure if they are proficient at all of them.

So I understand your frustration.

However I know many NFP instructors that will do it over distances.

CCL will help with that if you just call them. In fact you will probably get an excellent instructor. Sometimes the websites can be more of a burden than a help. Just pick up the phone and call someone, (sound panicked) That is how I get most of my stuff done.

 

[NFPWife]

The site offers online learning, but I think it would be best to click “contact us” and e-mail them with your circumstances and need for support. I would think they’d be able to set you up with an instructor via Skype/ video chat and a dedicated opportunity for charting support for your first cycles. There’s not a huge learning curve with Marquette, especially if you’re familiar with other NFP methods. You can do this with a high level of reliability.

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[Truth_Faith13]

Hello…

I’ve been here before, but started again with a new name because I would prefer to be anonymous.

I have a terrible problem that is hurting my marriage, my family life and my spiritual life. I feel like there are no good answers. I am extremely torn and feel like our family might just be at a point where the only thing we can do is leave the Church for a while.

I will try to keep the details brief, but please feel free to ask more… Any compassionate advice would be welcome. What I am not interested in hearing is, “Stick to Church teaching and consider the misery your cross to bear!”

I wasn’t going to comment as I’m not catholic, and in situations like this my non catholic mind takes over sometimes. However there was one point that is being highlighted for me…

You are clearly very passionate about the church and it’s teachings. Whatever you decide to do, I don’t see why you need to leave the church? If I am right in saying the church itself teaches that it is a church for sinners (I think I’ve heard the phrase a hospital for the sick before) and there are very few things (eg abortion) which equal excommunication?

You know the teachings of the church, you know we are all sinners and not every is perfect, we all slip in many ways, you know how you are feeling and what’s best for your family. Keep in discussion with your priest. This is a decision for you and your husband…

 

[UnCatholicBride]

On top of charting, you may also want to look into the OvaCue monitor. It’s pricey, but it is a fantastic tool for those needing to prevent without ABC, or for those TTC with irregular cycles.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I wasn’t going to comment as I’m not catholic, and in situations like this my non catholic mind takes over sometimes. However there was one point that is being highlighted for me…

You are clearly very passionate about the church and it’s teachings. Whatever you decide to do, I don’t see why you need to leave the church? If I am right in saying the church itself teaches that it is a church for sinners (I think I’ve heard the phrase a hospital for the sick before) and there are very few things (eg abortion) which equal excommunication?

You know the teachings of the church, you know we are all sinners and not every is perfect, we all slip in many ways, you know how you are feeling and what’s best for your family. Keep in discussion with your priest. This is a decision for you and your husband…

Excommunication is a tool, an ecclesiastical penalty, used to publicly combat scandal. Or to persuade a person to change their ways. It ends at death.
In short, excommunication is the Church placing you outside with a remedy to come back in.
St. Joan of Arc was excommunicated. This was not remedied until after her death. With mortal sin, that would be impossible.
Mortal sin places one outside of the Church as well. It makes you (in the words of my first grader’s curriculum) an enemy of God. But with sin, it is YOU who place yourself outside the Church. There is also a remedy (confession) that you should use.

For Catholics, being in mortal sin is “leaving” the Church. Which is why one should not receive the Eucharist while in that state and why one must seek confession as soon as they can.

Either way one is technically outside of the Church.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

On top of charting, you may also want to look into the OvaCue monitor. It’s pricey, but it is a fantastic tool for those needing to prevent without ABC, or for those TTC with irregular cycles.

Also a plug for Ladycomp. Expensive (refurbished around 300) but was our best tool we ever used. As long as one only used “green lights” it would be very conservative as well. It could also help with the piece of mind the husband may need. (you know guys trust computers)

It would start very conservative PP and then gradually get more green light time as it complicated more information. A year in and you would be very confident with it.

Also not a bad idea if you are “learning” NFP and are not up to speed with everything yet.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

It’s like if someone held a gun up to my head and said “do ___ otherwise you might die” I would feel as though my full consent of the will was being compromised. And so, even if ___ was grave matter, I don’t think I would be guilty of mortal sin if I followed through.

Likewise, if someone said “do ___ otherwise great harm may come to your family/marriage” I would also feel as though my full consent of the will was being compromised. And so, even if ___ was grave matter, I don’t think I would be guilty of mortal sin if I followed through…

I don’t understand what the “gun” is here.

The Church? The NFP? The Baby? The Husband?

To me, the gun is the murder of the eternal soul by giving in to mortal sin.

 

[patsa]

Just MHO, I don’t know if it’s necessarily appropriate to give NFP directions to someone on this forum who’s life is at stake…

If I’m not mistaken, her situation falls under the category of a life or death health issue, and it is against the rules to give advice or comments on health issues. Especially something so serious to where the poster’s life is in danger.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Just MHO, I don’t know if it’s necessarily appropriate to give NFP directions to someone on this forum who’s life is at stake…

If I’m not mistaken, her situation falls under the category of a life or death health issue, and it is against the rules to give advice or comments on health issues. Especially something so serious to where the poster’s life is in danger.

Posters have told her to look into several methods and talk to professionals. Not only is that certainly ok. but it is very Catholic.

If someone was dishing out medical advice that is another issue. But advocating for NFP or some form thereof is exactly what needs to be done here. This type of situation is EXACTLY addressed by the Church, through NFP.

It is more responsible advice than,
Sin and hope God understands…

 

[patsa]

I don’t understand what the “gun” is here.

The Church? The NFP? The Baby? The Husband?

To me, the gun is the murder of the eternal soul by giving in to mortal sin.

The gun? I don’t know what you mean, but the gun isn’t supposed to be anything. I’m establishing a scenario to parallel the scenario that the OP has described being in. A scenario where she feels like either moral decision could very well result in her death (if she continues to be open to life) or in great harm coming to her family/marriage (if she abstains for the next 20 years).

 

[patsa]

Posters have told her to look into several methods and talk to professionals. Not only is that certainly ok. but it is very Catholic.

If someone was dishing out medical advice that is another issue. But advocating for NFP or some form thereof is exactly what needs to be done here. This type of situation is EXACTLY addressed by the Church, through NFP.

It is more responsible advice than,
Sin and hope God understands…

Just my opinion. Maybe you’d feel differently about it if it was your daughter or something.

I just don’t think people should be advised to gamble with NFP when their LIFE is at stake.

 

[patsa]

Just my opinion. Maybe you’d feel differently about it if it was your daughter or something.

I just don’t think people should be advised to gamble with NFP when their LIFE is at stake.

I’d honestly tell her to abstain till menopause before I told her to use NFP in a case like this.

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

Just MHO, I don’t know if it’s necessarily appropriate to give NFP directions to someone on this forum who’s life is at stake…

If I’m not mistaken, her situation falls under the category of a life or death health issue, and it is against the rules to give advice or comments on health issues. Especially something so serious to where the poster’s life is in danger.

It’s not appropriate to solicit or give medical advice, up to and including advice related to family planning decisions, on an anonymous internet forum.

Nameless laptop jockeys cannot act in the capacity of health care professionals, cannon lawyers or spiritual advisers. To presume to be able to guide a woman who claims that a pregnancy could be fatal to her to is pure hubris.

The only responsible thing someone can do is to urge the OP to seek offline or “real life” counseling regarding her situation. She needs to be making her decisions this with people whose names she knows and whose credentials she can verify.

 

[NFPWife]

Just MHO, I don’t know if it’s necessarily appropriate to give NFP directions to someone on this forum who’s life is at stake…

If I’m not mistaken, her situation falls under the category of a life or death health issue, and it is against the rules to give advice or comments on health issues. Especially something so serious to where the poster’s life is in danger.

No one’s given NFP directions, which would have encompassed someone undertaking the instruction of NFP in the thread and advising as to which days where / where not fertile in the OP’s chart. (As an NFP instructor, I’m pretty clear on what NFP direction looks like.)

Instead folks have guided the OP toward medical models of NFP that have higher percentages of reliability. There are numerous NFP methods and some are better suited to specific life circumstances than others; we’re suggesting that the OP get more information on the method(s) suited to her specific situation and consider a conservative application, which she and her husband can be educated in by an appropriate instructor.

I have a life threatening condition and don’t find using a medical model of NFP to be a “gamble.”

 

[shelby_sun]

To the OP, please, please, please listen to your priest!!! I am not sure after speaking to your priest why you would come on this site. He is the most knowledgeable and wisest person you could listen to.

You seem to want another answer. I agree with your husband. Do you want to believe in a God that would have your husband burn in hell by doing something that he thinks might save your life. You have four children that need their mother healthy and sane in a happy marriage.

I was in a similar situation to yours and I too spoke to my priest who said something pretty much like yours did, so after praying about it my husband did have the surgery and neither one of us have ever regretted it or worry that we are going to hell over it. I may indeed be going to hell, but I don’t think that decision will have anything to do with it.

God is much more understanding than these people and he knows your heart and situation. Do not risk your life, sanity, or marriage over this. These people will not be there for you if something happens to you if you get pregnant again.

 

[Groo]

I don’t think it is right to advocate for NFP or anything else beyond seeking professional counsel - not when someone’s life is at stake.

 

[patsa]

It’s not appropriate to solicit or give medical advice, up to and including advice related to family planning decisions, on an anonymous internet forum.

Nameless laptop jockeys cannot act in the capacity of health care professionals, cannon lawyers or spiritual advisers. To presume to be able to guide a woman who claims that a pregnancy could be fatal to her to is pure hubris.

The only responsible thing someone can do is to urge the OP to seek offline or “real life” counseling regarding her situation. She needs to be making her decisions this with people whose names she knows and whose credentials she can verify.

Agreed.

All I’m going to do is give my opinion regarding culpability and say that I agree with her priest.

 

[patsa]

To the OP, please, please, please listen to your priest!!! I am not sure after speaking to your priest why you would come on this site. He is the most knowledgeable and wisest person you could listen to.

You seem to want another answer. I agree with your husband. Do you want to believe in a God that would have your husband burn in hell by doing something that he thinks might save your life. You have four children that need their mother healthy and sane in a happy marriage.

I was in a similar situation to yours and I too spoke to my priest who said something pretty much like yours did, so after praying about it my husband did have the surgery and neither one of us have ever regretted it or worry that we are going to hell over it. I may indeed be going to hell, but I don’t think that decision will have anything to do with it.

God is much more understanding than these people and he knows your heart and situation. Do not risk your life, sanity, or marriage over this. These people will not be there for you if something happens to you if you get pregnant again.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Just my opinion. Maybe you’d feel differently about it if it was your daughter or something.

I just don’t think people should be advised to gamble with NFP when their LIFE is at stake.

Not really. Nor if it was my wife. NFP is made to serve just these type of things. Teaching NFP I knew several couples that had life threatening reasons to avoid. It was those couples who were the best at it and not only that it was those couples who NEVER had any problems with it or complaints about their marriage.

Personally, my wife had complications last pregnancy. We do not use NFP but the risk is there and real that ANY pregnancy can be a life issue.
Are you familiar with NFP.
Used correctly it would be better than some other forms. Unless you particularly advocate for sterilization. A condom would have a pretty high fail rate.

Could you give a little background on either your knowledge of ABC or NFP and how it has impacted your life?

As to my daughters. My middle daughter has a deletion in the 1q21 gene. This could be a major deal or no problem at all. It was a major deal early in her life. She had to be on a feeding tube and had severe sensory issues. Happy to say that she is a normal happy, smart 1st grader. But it could cause complications later in her life. Including pregnancy issues. I would never tell her to jeopardize her soul and worship her life and body over God. Never.

This issue also played into my own personal NFP experience as I am the carrier of this deletion. We decided not to avoid. So far (two more children) this has not been an issue. But it could be down the line. And we are prepared to deal with that in the Holiest and supportive way possible.

NFP is the only Church approved (God) approved method other than abstinence.

I may rail against it being abused for frivolous reasons, but reasons this grave are the exact reason for the entire NFP existence.

I would have more confidence in our employment of NFP in life threatening circumstances than most ABC or even sterilizations.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Agreed.

All I’m going to do is give my opinion regarding culpability and say that I agree with her priest.

We have both given our opinion. So if that is true, we should both be done…

however, just to make sure we are all following the rules, I asked that this thread be reviewed by the mods.
My take, we are all ok and none has crossed the line. But I think given your point that it is life and death, and my point that it could be ETERNAL life and death for what we are commenting on, I think it is best that we make sure we are in bounds.

I will refrain for a day or so to give the Mod time to check it out.