Should we respectfully leave the Church

[shelby_sun]

Yes there ARE other people on the other side of the
Internet. So yes what appeared to be a genuine post from
the OP incited genuine responses.
However the genuineness of her struggle becomes
a question when she attacks the Church with insults.
Anachronistic, senile celibate old men?
Happy joyful Protestants?
Warmer and more on fire for Christ then
any Catholic she has met in years?

Sorry, the genuineness of her anguish does not read
true several pages into the thread.
And yet- everyone responded charitable except
of course those attacked any Catholic adhering to Church
teaching and ignoring the OP, Shelby Suns
attacks.

You bet.

I am sorry you need to make yourself out as a victim. Just a note if you feel I have attacked you instead of responding to your strong, inaccurate posts, that is your issue.

I need to note hear that I have NEVER put down the Church’s teachings nor said I was right in anyway. If people want me to sit here and lie to make them happy I can. To the OP, I only said for her to listen to your priest over anyone on the site, which seems silly now because that includs me, which is fine by me. Hopefully, God guides her where HE thinks she need to go whether any of us agree with her or not.

 

[The_Bucket]

I need to note hear that I have NEVER put down the Church’s teachings nor said I was right in anyway.

Are you really unfamiliar with the over populations in some parts of the world and the number of children if foster care that simply will never have a family of there own. I have three children, should I just go on having more that I cannot afford.

That… sounds a lot of like putting down the Church’s teaching. Just saying.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

No, I am not misunderstanding. Telling them to stay away from Church is telling them to miss Mass, which is a mortal sin. A person already struggling should keep going to Mass, even if they refrain from Holy Communion.

That is true. But now we are in the semantics of what it means to “leave or stay in the Church” I assert that to not be in communion with the Church/God is to be outside of the Church/God. So one in effect “leaves” the Church if one is not able to receive the Eucharist.

 

[The_Bucket]

That is true. But now we are in the semantics of what it means to “leave or stay in the Church” I assert that to not be in communion with the Church/God is to be outside of the Church/God. So one in effect “leaves” the Church if one is not able to receive the Eucharist.

We are never outside of God, even when we sin mortally. We are basically not in a relationship with Him anymore. “On a break” I guess. But we’re not entirely outside of Him.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

That is true. But now we are in the semantics of what it means to “leave or stay in the Church” I assert that to not be in communion with the Church/God is to be outside of the Church/God. So one in effect “leaves” the Church if one is not able to receive the Eucharist.

I can see this point, however I believe the OP was talking about leaving in the COMPLETE no longer catholic, find another church/or none sense so you guys need to be careful when telling her she should leave and define your meaning ie Eucharist (out of communion) or Mass.

 

[MacQ]

This was my position before this thread went all Charlie Sheen on us.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

From a catholic perspective - YES
Should the OPs husband have a Vasectomy - from a catholic perspective NO
Should the OP have a hysterectomy - from a catholic perspective NO
Her options - NFP or abstinence or be against church teaching
Should she leave the church because she is struggling with a teaching and her Protestant friends look happy - NO

Should the rest of us understand that this is a very scary life threatening situation - YES
Should we act with kindness and compassion WHIlLE helping her to figure this out and her struggle with church teaching - YES
Is it acceptable to tell her the church teachings in a kind and caring way - YES
Is it acceptable to tell her she is being pathetic - NO

I agree with all of that. 100 percent.

I just find it odd that it is pretty easy to jump all over someone for a perceived mistaken word typed but in life and death matters we tend to not be as vocal. I wonder why that is. Picking the low lying fruit I guess.

 

[marywarfield]

Here is the post I mentioned.

It is not true. Never has the Church said to a Catholic experiencing a private internal struggle with a moral teaching that you must leave until you are able to accept the Church’s teaching. And yet you say the Church is adamant on this matter!

Actually lol let me use the OPs and Shelby’s reasoning
for this statement ok? Same thing.

When I was 15 I told my priest that I could not
understand the Church not letting women in these
days if overpopulation use birth control or have
abortions. This was very confusing to me as it
was not loving.

My priest’s answer: the Church has spoken on
this issue. You need to leave the Church until
you can accept it’s authority to do so.

So now- who is correct here? Should I listen to
you? The Church? Or the priest?

After all both the OP and Shelby say we need
to follow the priest because at 75 her priest has more
experience.
Well mine was 79. And old. And celibate. Putting
forth the same anachronistic ideas.

So now what? They have an old priest that says yes to
vasectomy birth control and Communion.
I have an old priest who says no in no uncertain
terms.
I’m quite sure you all will claim mine was:
mean, arrogant, pompous, uncharitable,
manipulative, and everything else I’ve been
accused of.

However let me point out that 43 years later I’m
still here not enjoying the company of joyful,
birth control using, happy on fire with Christ’s love
Protestants.

 

[LongingSoul]

No, I am not misunderstanding. Telling them to stay away from Church is telling them to miss Mass, which is a mortal sin. A person already struggling should keep going to Mass, even if they refrain from Holy Communion.

No, marywarfield is not talking about people who struggle with the principle and refrain from communion…

If deep in your heart you believe the Church is wrong
in this matter **and cannot bring yourself to attend
patiently without receiving the Eucharistc **and wait for
Gods answer-

She is addressing the mentality that simply believes the Church is wrong on this point and happily reject it. You have come to the conversation late and are not realising the position of the OP and Shelbysun.

 

[shelby_sun]

Thanks for interjecting common sense to this thread, which has become unnecessarily contentious.

Agree. You come across better than I.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

I agree with all of that. 100 percent.

I just find it odd that it is pretty easy to jump all over someone for a perceived mistaken word typed but in life and death matters we tend to not be as vocal. I wonder why that is. Picking the low lying fruit I guess.

Sorry, I’m probably just tired but I don’t understand what you are saying.

 

[mommamaree]

That is true. But now we are in the semantics of what it means to “leave or stay in the Church” I assert that to not be in communion with the Church/God is to be outside of the Church/God. So one in effect “leaves” the Church if one is not able to receive the Eucharist.

No no no. This is a horrible thing to say.

A person who commits a mortal sin does not “leave” the Church. They must only refrain from communion, but they are never told to therefore stop going to Mass until they experience genuine contrition. They continue going to Mass, but go to confession before receiving the Eucharist.

A person who struggles with a moral teaching of the Church does not “leave” the Church. They are still obligated and invited to attend Mass every Sunday and holy day, and they are invited to seek pastoral counsel and they have recourse to confession. Depending on the level of their internal struggles, they may or may not need to refrain from Communion. For example, if they doubt, but remain obedient, they need not refrain. If they doubt, and act contrary to teachings, they should refrain. Their priest can help them figure this out.

We should never ever ever tell someone to leave because of some notion that, due to their dissent, they have already “left”. Please reconsider this idea. I am afraid it is very harmful, and not just to others. But you are setting yourself up for a terrible crises if you think a person must leave the Church formally because they have already left in their hearts.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I can see this point, however I believe the OP was talking about leaving in the COMPLETE no longer catholic, find another church/or none sense so you guys need to be careful when telling her she should leave and define your meaning ie Eucharist (out of communion) or Mass.

Yes of course. But one also needs to take into account real life. It is also painful to tell someone to go to Mass every single week and sit there and separate yourself from the community and having the fact that you do not accept what the Church teaches rubbed in your face every single week, for the rest of your life or until you either succumb to the teaching or unworthily receive. That is much harder emotionally than someone telling you something that is hard to hear.

Yet this is the position of the Church. This is the medicine needed to bring one back in. IF the OPs question is should I stay if I do not believe. Then the answer is no. IF it is “I am weak, should I stay and go to Mass and pray to be led in the right direction” Then the answer is Yes! Yes! a thousand times Yes.

 

[mommamaree]

No, marywarfield is not talking about people who struggle with the principle and refrain from communion…

She is addressing the mentality that simply believes the Church is wrong on this point and happily reject it. You have come to the conversation late and are not realising the position of the OP and Shelbysun.

Look again. My first post is on the very first page, and I have been following everything all along.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Yes of course. But one also needs to take into account real life. It is also painful to tell someone to go to Mass every single week and sit there and separate yourself from the community and having the fact that you do not accept what the Church teaches rubbed in your face every single week, for the rest of your life or until you either succumb to the teaching or unworthily receive. That is much harder emotionally than someone telling you something that is hard to hear.

Yet this is the position of the Church. This is the medicine needed to bring one back in. IF the OPs question is should I stay if I do not believe. Then the answer is no. IF it is “I am weak, should I stay and go to Mass and pray to be led in the right direction” Then the answer is Yes! Yes! a thousand times Yes.

I agree with this.

 

[shelby_sun]

No, marywarfield is not talking about people who struggle with the principle and refrain from communion…

She is addressing the mentality that simply believes the Church is wrong on this point and happily reject it. You have come to the conversation late and are not realising the position of the OP and Shelbysun.

DO NOT include me in saying that the Church’s teaching is wrong, as I have never said that. I will being putting in a formal complaint after this because I know you cannot find that in any of my post and your are crossing the line her by saying that is my position. Go back and find where I have said that anywhere. You are very out of line here and I will not sit back and lie. Go ahead, find it.

 

[The_Bucket]

DO NOT include me in saying that the Church’s teaching is wrong, as I have never said that. I will being putting in a formal complaint after this because I know you cannot find that in any of my post and your are crossing the line her by saying that is my position. Go back and find where I have said that anywhere. You are very out of line here and I will not sit back and lie. Go ahead, find it.

I… what? So the Church is not wrong about this?

Then you are? But you’re cool with that?

I’m not following.

 

[marywarfield]

From a catholic perspective - YES
Should the OPs husband have a Vasectomy - from a catholic perspective NO
Should the OP have a hysterectomy - from a catholic perspective NO
Her options - NFP or abstinence or be against church teaching
Should she leave the church because she is struggling with a teaching and her Protestant friends look happy - NO

Should the rest of us understand that this is a very scary life threatening situation - YES
Should we act with kindness and compassion WHIlLE helping her to figure this out and her struggle with church teaching - YES
Is it acceptable to tell her the church teachings in a kind and caring way - YES
Is it acceptable to tell her she is being pathetic - NO

I have a couple suggestions for you. You and the
others do not make your case by paraphrasing your
interpretations of what I say.
You would do better with actual truthful quotes.

At NO TIME did I tell the OP she was pathetic.

Never happened.

I am curious though why you wish to present
me as having done so? Does this tendency
back your argument in some way?

 

[NFPWife]

What is happening here?!

The OP is in a very serious situation. She has already demonstrated an understanding of Church teaching, and has admitted that she is struggling with accepting it, because of the trials she and her husband are facing.

She doesn’t need to be put down. Her struggles should not be minimized.

She needs to be encouraged not to be fearful.
She needs to be directed to models of NFP that offer a high level of certainty.
She needs to be counseled to go back to her priest and speak to him if her conscience is still troubled.
**And she needs to be told that if, despite all her efforts to form her own conscience, that if her husband still doesn’t understand, and out of fear he goes and gets a vasectomy or insists upon condom usage, she is not culpable. Her husband may yet come to a place of conversion or acceptance. But right now they are scared. **

I think the use of the word “pathetic” and other such words used in this thread to mock the internal conflict experienced by the OP and other posters who have gone through similar crises, is just mean and unfair. Would you look someone in the face and call them pathetic? Because there are people on the other end of the internet connection, even if you cannot see their face.

The OP was asking if the Church would prefer that she “excommunicate” herself because she cannot accept a hard teaching right now. I said of course she should stay. To whom should she go? The Church that Christ founded has the teachings that lead to eternal life. But some posters here appear to be so angry at her internal conflict, as well as those of a couple other posters who struggle similarly, that they are willing to say yes, leave. I remember one poster saying that if she finds herself unable to refrain from communion while she struggles with dissent (remember she and her husband are only discussing vasectomy, and nothing has been done yet), then yes, she should leave the Church until such time as she finds she no longer dissents. It is against forum rules to tell someone to leave the Church, and furthermore, how dare anyone tell any of the lost little lambs to stay away until they can properly find their way back to the Church, without the help of Jesus looking for them each and every Sunday?

This! Before this thread went a little off the rails,I meant to say something similar to the bold face quote. (Mommamaree, thanks for trying to get this back on track!)

I’ll add to the statement that she is not culpable, that should her husband used some form of ABC, she is not obligated to refuse marital relations.

 

[The_Bucket]

At NO TIME did I tell the OP she was pathetic.?

Artful indeed, making it about the OP.

Saying one is leaving because they want birth control
and everyone who disagrees is a raving judgmental jerk
is dishonest, self justifying.

And pathetic. If people want to leave they could
have the decency as adults to take the responsibility
on themselves instead of claiming they are being forced out.
That’s absurd.

Plausible deniability that you were speaking about someone else. And maybe you were. I’ll assume you were. But the rhetoric and tone is there in the mirror being held up by our Protestant friend.