Should we respectfully leave the Church

[mommy_k]

Following and knowing the catechism verbatim without compassion,kindness and mercy does not make one a Catholic. And the reverse it true as well. But the posters in this discussion are heavily one sided.

It is not a mortal sin to ask an ordained priest questions or follow his advice, or to offer suggestions to a person using only examples from the op.

Yes there are more suitable, preferred, accepted methods. But the op stated vasectomy. To spin it to read so they can have-more frequent sex-is disgusting. We are talking about a serious condition here where conception would be life threatening. You must realize that your comments imply this.

 

[Rau]

Yes there are more suitable, preferred, accepted methods. But the op stated vasectomy. To spin it to read so they can have-more frequent sex-is disgusting. We are talking about a serious condition here where conception would be life threatening. You must realize that your comments imply this.

I have to say I am unclear where you are coming from on this thread. Here, you seem to be saying that you have felt constrained to limit your responses to a defence of vasectomy because that is the option the OP has postulated. A bit like a lawyer making the best argument they can muster in support of her client’s position. I don’t think that is what the OP sought or wants.

The OP’s situation is exceptionally difficult. Her choice is tough, but it is hers and her husband’s to make. And as I have said on another thread, it is not that difficult to know what option(s) are right (if you trust the Church), but it is far harder to choose it. I cannot say with certainty what I would do in comparable circumstances.

 

[Jaaanosik]

Thankyou for your kindly affirmation and I hope I can do your points justice.

Perhaps I could demonstrate the difference between the fertile and infertile phases of the natural cycle by different types of conversation. When a women is fertile the intercourse becomes a fruitful exchange of dialogue.

Outside of ovulation, the womb remains receptive in the exchange but more in a listening capacity. There is much to be said for the type of conversation where one can be a listener, not needing words in meeting the need of the other involved in conversation. The channels of communication have not been switched off. The words may not be there but the capacity to listen receptively remains.

Contraception is the act of becoming unreceptive. It is the deliberate switching off of the channels of communication. With contraceptive devices and techniques, the body is being told to shut down. It is there, and an act of sexual exchange may be happening, but it is no longer receptive. The listening capacity is voided. The mechanism shut down.

As for temperature taking and mucus checking, they are simply ‘reading’ the data. They are just a diagnosis… not a treatment that alters the natural course of the bodies functioning.

The teaching of the Church here places great emphasis on this special conjugal relationship. It is not just the natural instinct towards procreation that conjugal intercourse serves but also the transmission of love that manifests the great love that God had for us in creating us. That is why Christ took to Himself the role of bridegroom to His bride the Church, as His legacy of everlasting love for every generation to come.

I hope that isn’t too convoluted.

No, it’s not convoluted. I follow your thoughts very well.

Any diagnosis is only done when we are searching for or trying to prevent a disease. Is the fertility a disease?
Many diagnosis’s are not natural. I’d say most of them (blood sample, x-rays, …) but we do them for greater good.
A finger or thermometer down there, that’s just not natural.

 

[The_Bucket]

A finger or thermometer down there, that’s just not natural.

Using a thermometer in your mouth isn’t “natural” either.

And neither is using ah… erm… marital aids. And yet it’s also not wrong in the context of marital intimacy. So I don’t quite get your point.

 

[mommy_k]

I have to say I am unclear where you are coming from on this thread. Here, you seem to be saying that you have felt constrained to limit your responses to a defence of vasectomy because that is the option the OP has postulated. A bit like a lawyer making the best argument they can muster in support of her client’s position. I don’t think that is what the OP sought or wants.

The OP’s situation is exceptionally difficult. Her choice is tough, but it is hers and her husband’s to make. And as I have said on another thread, it is not that difficult to know what option(s) are right (if you trust the Church), but it is far harder to choose it. I cannot say with certainty what I would do in comparable circumstances.

So far in this thread, all I have done is posted an idea once, and was questioned about it constantly. Now usually I would just walk away from a post. But I read other advice that was (not yours) saying “just accept you will die if it is God’s will” . No- God helps those who help themselves.
So I kept going- and yet, as another poster said-I am sure avocado mom left a long time ago…

If this were me- I am confident that I would seek a one time dispensation from the church to avoid death and of course argue my case. And because I believe my Church is a merciful one, I would get it.

 

[Jaaanosik]

Using a thermometer in your mouth isn’t “natural” either.

And neither is using ah… erm… marital aids. And yet it’s also not wrong in the context of marital intimacy. So I don’t quite get your point.

My point would be that if NFP is using unnatural means then it’s not natural at all as it’s being painted.
It’s just another ‘unnatural contraception’.
If that’s OK, then why it would not be for other non-abortive contraception’s.

 

[LongingSoul]

No, it’s not convoluted. I follow your thoughts very well.

Any diagnosis is only done when we are searching for or trying to prevent a disease. Is the fertility a disease?
Many diagnosis’s are not natural. I’d say most of them (blood sample, x-rays, …) but we do them for greater good.
A finger or thermometer down there, that’s just not natural.

No, diagnosing simply means reading data to determine the condition of something. For example, doing blood tests or giving urine samples help determine the condition of pregnancy which is far from a disease. I think you might be thinking that reading the fertility data in this way is unsavoury or undignified, but many things in a womans reproductive life are unsavoury and undignified but far from unnatural. When we are in labour, the nurse will put her *whole hand *up there to determine the condition of the cervix to know whether to push. When a child is born the whole thing is a squelchy, messy undignified event but far from unnatural.

So reading the data in such a way as to conform to nature in making decisions is the opposite of actively inhibiting the processes to defy the natural course of things.

 

[LSK]

I can’t wean, she’s not a year yet. My cycles usually come back between 18-24 months postpartum anyway, nursing or not. So I do have that to look forward to.

I do not understand this answer. I know people who wean their children at six weeks. While I do not agree with that, to say she cannot be weaned because she is less than a year doesn’t make sense.

I also agree with that telling us not to urge you to follow Church teaching and put going to heaven above what you want out of life is something you do not want to hear is odd.

Your husband is wrong that ‘everyone’ at Mass is using contraception. I am at Mass. I do not use contraception.

I am also someone who has been in the position of having to give up sexual relationships for the past 25 years in order to embrace Church teaching. I don’t think I am unhealthy in the least, so I am also confused by that remark.

However, it seems to me you have all the information you need to make a decision. If you feel this is a good enough reason to walk away from Jesus in the Eucharist, well…ok.

You are in my prayers.

 

[Rau]

So far in this thread, all I have done is posted an idea once, and was questioned about it constantly. Now usually I would just walk away from a post. But I read other advice that was (not yours) saying “just accept you will die if it is God’s will” . No- God helps those who help themselves.
So I kept going- and yet, as another poster said-I am sure avocado mom left a long time ago…

If this were me- I am confident that I would seek a one time dispensation from the church to avoid death and of course argue my case. And because I believe my Church is a merciful one, I would get it.

Mommy, be fair, the idea was pretty controversial, and contrary to church teaching, as the suggestion of a dispensation confirms.

Is there a process of dispensation? Who grants that? The Bishop?

 

[shelby_sun]

So far in this thread, all I have done is posted an idea once, and was questioned about it constantly. Now usually I would just walk away from a post. But I read other advice that was (not yours) saying “just accept you will die if it is God’s will” . No- God helps those who help themselves.
So I kept going- and yet, as another poster said-I am sure avocado mom left a long time ago…

If this were me- I am confident that I would seek a one time dispensation from the church to avoid death and of course argue my case. And because I believe my Church is a merciful one, I would get it.

Yes, these posters that say to accept God’s will, would be the same one that would have a family member resuscitated if themselves or a family member flat line interfering with God’s will. How many have a DNR. I don’t think the Catholic church has a rule on this but shouldn’t they. Isn’t reviving someone prevent them dying and going to God if they are that lucky?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

. How many have a DNR. I don’t think the Catholic church has a rule on this but shouldn’t they. Isn’t reviving someone prevent them dying and going to God if they are that lucky?

ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=367160

 

[LongingSoul]

Yes, these posters that say to accept God’s will, would be the same one that would have a family member resuscitated if themselves or a family member flat line interfering with God’s will. How many have a DNR. I don’t think the Catholic church has a rule on this but shouldn’t they. Isn’t reviving someone prevent them dying and going to God if they are that lucky?

As Rau said, that particular post was not the Church line and is not what the majority of us were suggesting.

The only modern medical treatments strictly forbidden are those that fundamentally trade in human death like abortion, embryonic stem cell technology, euthanasia and IVF treatments. This is extended to include hormonal pills and devices used for contraception. All of these treatments promote the culture of death.

 

[Avocadomom]

I do not understand this answer. I know people who wean their children at six weeks. While I do not agree with that, to say she cannot be weaned because she is less than a year doesn’t make sense.

I also agree with that telling us not to urge you to follow Church teaching and put going to heaven above what you want out of life is something you do not want to hear is odd.

Your husband is wrong that ‘everyone’ at Mass is using contraception. I am at Mass. I do not use contraception.

I am also someone who has been in the position of having to give up sexual relationships for the past 25 years in order to embrace Church teaching. I don’t think I am unhealthy in the least, so I am also confused by that remark.

However, it seems to me you have all the information you need to make a decision. If you feel this is a good enough reason to walk away from Jesus in the Eucharist, well…ok.

You are in my prayers.

I want to respond to this.

Obviously I could wean. I won’t wean. I am not going to trade on this child’s health and wellbeing for my own convenience. I am not going to wean my baby prematurely.

Obviously when my husband says “everyone” is using contraception, he means almost everyone. Yes, there are rare exceptions. Here on this message board, you are probably going to see the single MOST pious and religion-centric person from any given parish represented. The other 99.9% wouldn’t even think to join a site like this one. At my parish, I have never even heard the topic of NFP vs. contraception come up. Even the most involved families only have two or three children.

You are married and have given up sexual relations for 25 years? I am impressed that you have been able to keep your marriage together and still vibrant and healthy. I am not sure my husband is the kind of person who could be remotely happy having a completely sexless marriage for years ongoing. Maybe that is a failing on his part and a flaw in his character. Maybe he chose the vocation of marriage because he wanted to share that level of intimacy with a woman. I am not comfortable just “cutting him off.” I don’t think that’s healthy, loving or fair.

My husband and I have spoken and he feels that sex 3-5 days out of the month at this point in our marriage is acceptable. We are going to seriously look into the Marquette method to see if it is a good match for us. I have to be really blunt here - having unprotected sex at any time is going to make me mad with panic. I’ll just have to see how it goes.

 

[LongingSoul]

You are married and have given up sexual relations for 25 years? I am impressed that you have been able to keep your marriage together and still vibrant and healthy. I am not sure my husband is the kind of person who could be remotely happy having a completely sexless marriage for years ongoing.

There are so many reasons why a person may be required to live without a sexlife (including divorce). A thing that helps with living a difficult requirement, is fully understanding the teaching that behoves it. To do something believing it is an unreasonable, meaningless an arbitrary rule made by mere men to wield power, is not going to be healthy or possible. When you do it out of love for God and for the institution of marriage, really understanding why God and nature esteem this gift of our fertility and sexual relations… it becomes much more spiritually fruitful and a source of richness in relationships. Imagine going through what we go through to birth and raise our children if love for them wasn’t involved?

Build on your relationship with God through learning and daily prayerfulness and regular self examination of every aspect of your life. Those are the habits that build love in any relationship. Relationships can survive and thrive without sex, but they cannot without love.

Someone earlier posted this link to the teaching tract…

catholic.com/tracts/birth-control

 

[marywarfield]

I want to respond to this.

Obviously I could wean. I won’t wean. I am not going to trade on this child’s health and wellbeing for my own convenience. I am not going to wean my baby prematurely.

Obviously when my husband says “everyone” is using contraception, he means almost everyone. Yes, there are rare exceptions. Here on this message board, you are probably going to see the single MOST pious and religion-centric person from any given parish represented. The other 99.9% wouldn’t even think to join a site like this one. At my parish, I have never even heard the topic of NFP vs. contraception come up. Even the most involved families only have two or three children.

You are married and have given up sexual relations for 25 years? I am impressed that you have been able to keep your marriage together and still vibrant and healthy. I am not sure my husband is the kind of person who could be remotely happy having a completely sexless marriage for years ongoing. Maybe that is a failing on his part and a flaw in his character. Maybe he chose the vocation of marriage because he wanted to share that level of intimacy with a woman. I am not comfortable just “cutting him off.” I don’t think that’s healthy, loving or fair.

My husband and I have spoken and he feels that sex 3-5 days out of the month at this point in our marriage is acceptable. We are going to seriously look into the Marquette method to see if it is a good match for us. I have to be really blunt here - having unprotected sex at any time is going to make me mad with panic. I’ll just have to see how it goes.

Well hmmm. I have been married for thirty years and my husband
and I abstained from 1992-2011. Our marriage is
stronger than ever. Cause we had to find different ways
to express intimacy, compassion, reassurance besides sex.
It’s been a fabulous thirty years. I’m intensely grateful
to my husband-an excellent husband and father.
“Man has no greater love than to lay his life down
for a friend.”. Don’t knock it til you try it Avacadomom.

As far as 99.9 percent of Catholics on birth control?
Haha. Find a reference. I can unequivocally state
that no one in my parish uses birth control. Zero zion
nada. But then our entire parish of over three hundred
is either under ten or past menopause.

As far as weaning? You are absolutely correct.

 

[mommamaree]

I want to respond to this.

Obviously I could wean. I won’t wean. I am not going to trade on this child’s health and wellbeing for my own convenience. I am not going to wean my baby prematurely.

Obviously when my husband says “everyone” is using contraception, he means almost everyone. Yes, there are rare exceptions. Here on this message board, you are probably going to see the single MOST pious and religion-centric person from any given parish represented. The other 99.9% wouldn’t even think to join a site like this one. At my parish, I have never even heard the topic of NFP vs. contraception come up. Even the most involved families only have two or three children.

You are married and have given up sexual relations for 25 years? I am impressed that you have been able to keep your marriage together and still vibrant and healthy. I am not sure my husband is the kind of person who could be remotely happy having a completely sexless marriage for years ongoing. Maybe that is a failing on his part and a flaw in his character. Maybe he chose the vocation of marriage because he wanted to share that level of intimacy with a woman. I am not comfortable just “cutting him off.” I don’t think that’s healthy, loving or fair.

My husband and I have spoken and he feels that sex 3-5 days out of the month at this point in our marriage is acceptable. We are going to seriously look into the Marquette method to see if it is a good match for us. I have to be really blunt here - having unprotected sex at any time is going to make me mad with panic. I’ll just have to see how it goes.

God bless you! I was so glad to read your update today. It is wonderful news that you are going to look into the Marquette method. I have heard great things about that method. I already have a monitor, but haven’t yet needed to start using NFP. We plan on that after the six month LAM period is over for this baby I am pregnant with now.
I especially appreciate the fact that you restated your earlier point about your concerns NOT centering on abstinence, but rather on the fear that even your infertile times could be risky. I had noticed you making that point earlier, and that makes sense. That is why I thinking the use of the fertility monitor makes so much sense. But having no history of use of my own, I couldn’t advise it. I do know there are several posters here who have successfully used NFP for years due to life-threatening issues. I am so thankful that these great doctors and scientists have worked so hard to develop these methods, with protocols for risky situations. I hope you and your husband find some peace and contentment with your NFP method and I hope your health situation continues to improve over time. Thank you for sharing your struggles here.

 

[Jaaanosik]

No, diagnosing simply means reading data to determine the condition of something. For example, doing blood tests or giving urine samples help determine the condition of pregnancy which is far from a disease. I think you might be thinking that reading the fertility data in this way is unsavoury or undignified, but many things in a womans reproductive life are unsavoury and undignified but far from unnatural. When we are in labour, the nurse will put her *whole hand *up there to determine the condition of the cervix to know whether to push. When a child is born the whole thing is a squelchy, messy undignified event but far from unnatural.

So reading the data in such a way as to conform to nature in making decisions is the opposite of actively inhibiting the processes to defy the natural course of things.

Now that’s convoluted.
There is no way that a finger or thermometer in vagina is natural.
I see why woman like NFP. They have orgasm every morning.
Take care,
Jano

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Now that’s convoluted.
There is no way that a finger or thermometer in vagina is natural.
I see why woman like NFP. They have orgasm every morning.
Take care,
Jano

Who would put a thermometer in a vagina? I have never heard of that? Have you?

 

[Rau]

Now that’s convoluted.
There is no way that a finger or thermometer in vagina is natural.
I see why woman like NFP. They have orgasm every morning.
Take care,
Jano

Natural, like normal, is not a straightforward word. Think about the life you lead - just one day of it, and ask what was natural. The food you ate? The implements with which you ate it? The clothes you wore? How you got your news about the weather. Do you see a problem with any of that? Why do have a problem with taking a woman’s temperature or taking note of mucus? These are just ways of discovering one’s fertility.

 

[marywarfield]

Who would put a thermometer in a vagina? I have never heard of that? Have you?

Really? Lol. It is one method for checking cervical
mucous.
Actually it can be orally, vaginally or rectally.
Just never under the arm.