Should we retun to Folk music at the Mass!

[joeybaggz]

Talking about contemporary music. If you want to hear something uplifting, go to You Tube and search for Josh Groban’s “You Raise me Up” done with scenes from “The Passion of the Christ” as a video. I have it bookmarked and listen/watch almost daily for a jolt of spiritual fulfillment. It is awesome.

 

[Irishmom2]

I never can understand how organ music is considered to be the ultimate in instruments for mass. Can someone explain that to me? Earlier, someone mention looking up at the crucifix and not wanting to hear certain instruments. Why is the organ okay? It is jarringly loud at times, and even when it’s not, it’s still an "electric"sound. I just don’t get what makes it so much more appropriate than a piano, or what is so wrong with guitars.

Anyone?

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

I never can understand how organ music is considered to be the ultimate in instruments for mass. Can someone explain that to me? Earlier, someone mention looking up at the crucifix and not wanting to hear certain instruments. Why is the organ okay? It is jarringly loud at times, and even when it’s not, it’s still an "electric"sound. I just don’t get what makes it so much more appropriate than a piano, or what is so wrong with guitars.

Anyone?

I don’t understand it, either, especially since during the early 1900’s the organ was a highly secular instrument used in everything from sporting events to movie soundtracks. Not only that, many poor churches couldn’t afford one at all until that time.

I think by tradition some people mean the tradition they were raised on.

 

[Irishmom2]

Organ music: 60’s music, ball games, roller rinks, church.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Organ music: 60’s music, ball games, roller rinks, church.

Exactly. I find organ music rather secular because my grandparents constantly listened to “oldies” that were all organ music and watched old movies chock full of organ music. It was not part of my formative church experience. To me, it was a very secular thing my grandparents liked

However, I did grow up with guitars and egregiously poor hymns. I have really welcomed the change to wonderfully composed contemporary music.

I get confused about the true “ancientness” of choral work. It wasn’t until modern time that we could replicate it perfectly, and it wouldn’t have been uncommon for the church to compose their own, making all music nuanced and different in each church.

 

[Sy_Noe]

My question would be why as of this post, are there 64% opposed? I recall Catholic guitar Masses. I enjoyed them. I don’t attend Mass nowadays but why not offer a variety? Those who want an organ can attend those Masses. Those who prefer another style would have a choice. An Episcopal church near me offers traditional music at a couple of their Masses. At another Mass guitar and piano and a fourth Mass with a band. What’s the big deal? No one would be forced to attend a Mass with folk music. Attend whichever one prefers. Whichever speaks to you. And in the Catholic belief, Jesus would be present at all.

 

[pianistclare]

Exactly. We have an elderly “band” that sings their own compositions at the 5 PM Saturday night.
In a word, it’s AWFUL. Simply awful. Bad sound, bad singers, bad theology, everything about it is harsh and unworthy of the Mass. Now that I am a full-time Music Director, the new priest has asked me to get them to cease and desist. They flipped out. They have no idea what they are doing that is so wrong, and they simply will not listen to reason. It’s not about guitars for us. They own fine ones! Their delivery is horrible. They are an aging garage band who likes their Church gig. I have asked them to sing hymns, I have bought them the guitar accompaniment books, I have provided responsorial Psalm book with guitar chords. For 12 years I have offered to meet with them weekly to teach them the hymns. For 15 years I have offered to tape the music make a copy for each person so that they can play it by ear if they wish. Since I have known them (I was there part time, left, and the Pastor brought me back full time) they have said to me OK, and then proceed to do whatever they want, with no change. Now we have a priest who is ready to ask them to step down, and I dread the scene it’s going to cause. They actually said that there are people asking them to make a CD!!! They think they are going to sell oodles and give the money to the church.
What do I say? No, no one is going to buy them! The phone rings off the hook on Mondays…“PLEASE change the music, it’s horrible. I had guests in town and we were embarrassed”.

It’s not about the instrumentation in most places. It’s the poor execution. So yeah. there are many people who just don’t attend that Mass because it drives them crazy. The last straw for me as Music Director was when they composed a Lamb of God (why?) which was roughly the same tune as “Duke of Earl”.
Egad.
People were actually laughing in the pews. I told them STOP. Immediately. Or else.
So yeah, they’re mad.
But come on…play guitars, Play beautifully. The one man said to me last night “I know for a fact that there are people composing their own music for the Mass at other parishes.”
Me: Where? Who?
Ed Bolduc at St Anne? Yeah, he’s published.
Paul Tate at the Cathedral?: Yeah, he’s a publishes arranger of traditional Catholic and Contemporary Catholic music. Those are approved exceptions given directly by the Archbishop because of their extreme talent and appropriateness for use in the Mass.
A WHOLE different enchilada.
Music uplifts, may possibly enhance, and supports. It’s never a show. It’s never distracting.
It should never be badly executed.

 

[pianistclare]

What people love to quote: Bit and pieces of this Document:
116. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.

But other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations, so long as they accord with the spirit of the liturgical action, as laid down in Art. 30.

1. The typical edition of the books of Gregorian chant is to be completed; and a more critical edition is to be prepared of those books already published since the restoration by St. Pius X.

It is desirable also that an edition be prepared containing simpler melodies, for use in small churches.

1. Religious singing by the people is to be intelligently fostered so that in devotions and sacred exercises, as also during liturgical services, the voices of the faithful may ring out according to the norms and requirements of the rubrics.
2. In certain parts of the world, especially mission lands, there are peoples who have their own musical traditions, and these play a great part in their religious and social life. For this reason due importance is to be attached to their music, and a suitable place is to be given to it, not only in forming their attitude toward religion, but also in adapting worship to their native genius, as indicated in Art. 39 and 40.

Therefore, when missionaries are being given training in music, every effort should be made to see that they become competent in promoting the traditional music of these peoples, both in schools and in sacred services, as far as may be practicable.

120. In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man’s mind to God and to higher things.

But other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship, with the knowledge and consent of the competent territorial authority, as laid down in Art. 22, 52, 37, and 40. This may be done, however, only on condition that the instruments are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use, accord with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful.

If you read the whole thing, some of the very things people despise are permitted. I think this may be the ONE passage from the Documents of VAT II that some traditionalists like.
But as we have discussed oodles of times before, organs are expensive. Not all churches can accomodate them, you have to have a TRAINED liturgical organist, not just anyone, and their volume can be abused. And as may of the posters here have noted, one can play secular music on an organ. Simply having an organ does not lessen the chance of bad music. Indeed, we have many with hearing issues, and if the organ goes nuts…it’s painful.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Exactly. We have an elderly “band” that sings their own compositions at the 5 PM Saturday night.
In a word, it’s AWFUL. Simply awful. Bad sound, bad singers, bad theology, everything about it is harsh and unworthy of the Mass. Now that I am a full-time Music Director, the new priest has asked me to get them to cease and desist. They flipped out. They have no idea what they are doing that is so wrong, and they simply will not listen to reason. It’s not about guitars for us. They own fine ones! Their delivery is horrible. They are an aging garage band who likes their Church gig. I have asked them to sing hymns, I have bought them the guitar accompaniment books, I have provided responsorial Psalm book with guitar chords. For 12 years I have offered to meet with them weekly to teach them the hymns. For 15 years I have offered to tape the music make a copy for each person so that they can play it by ear if they wish. Since I have known them (I was there part time, left, and the Pastor brought me back full time) they have said to me OK, and then proceed to do whatever they want, with no change. Now we have a priest who is ready to ask them to step down, and I dread the scene it’s going to cause. They actually said that there are people asking them to make a CD!!! They think they are going to sell oodles and give the money to the church.
What do I say? No, no one is going to buy them! The phone rings off the hook on Mondays…“PLEASE change the music, it’s horrible. I had guests in town and we were embarrassed”.

It’s not about the instrumentation in most places. It’s the poor execution. So yeah. there are many people who just don’t attend that Mass because it drives them crazy. The last straw for me as Music Director was when they composed a Lamb of God (why?) which was roughly the same tune as “Duke of Earl”.
Egad.
People were actually laughing in the pews. I told them STOP. Immediately. Or else.
So yeah, they’re mad.
But come on…play guitars, Play beautifully. The one man said to me last night “I know for a fact that there are people composing their own music for the Mass at other parishes.”
Me: Where? Who?
Ed Bolduc at St Anne? Yeah, he’s published.
Paul Tate at the Cathedral?: Yeah, he’s a publishes arranger of traditional Catholic and Contemporary Catholic music. Those are approved exceptions given directly by the Archbishop because of their extreme talent and appropriateness for use in the Mass.
A WHOLE different enchilada.
Music uplifts, may possibly enhance, and supports. It’s never a show. It’s never distracting.
It should never be badly executed.

Honestly, I wouldn’t stop them from making a CD (at their own expense) and letting them distribute it without the help of the church. Most likely it will flop, and that will be the end of that.

Quite frankly, in your shoes I would say that the 5pm Mass no longer has music, volunteer or otherwise, for the next 6 months save a cantor for the things that must be sung.

 

[pianistclare]

Oh yeah, they would do it at their own expense. I knew another choir that did that and they ended up giving most of them away.
Father has asked me to take over that Mass with a cantor. He just has not told them yet.
Waiting for the blowback. Having a meeting this week.
St Cecilia pray for all of us!!! May cool heads prevail.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

But as we have discussed oodles of times before, organs are expensive. Not all churches can accomodate them, you have to have a TRAINED liturgical organist, not just anyone, and their volume can be abused. And as may of the posters here have noted, one can play secular music on an organ. Simply having an organ does not lessen the chance of bad music. Indeed, we have many with hearing issues, and if the organ goes nuts…it’s painful.

I know I’m replying to you twice, but I feel it’s necessary in this case since the subjects differ so much.

I think many faithful have no idea, what-so-ever at the enormous expense that an organ carries. Even if a church has one, the maintenance can rise into the thousands on a regular basis. Bad electronics from the 60’s and 70’s can pose real hazards. A church near me had a fire during a funeral and likely would have suffered structural damage if it were not for the organist who was brilliantly fast on her feet and risked her own life.

And that’s if you can even GET a trained musician to play the organ. It’s not like the piano and having fallen out of secular favor, very few young people are learning this art. I do think that many traditionalists do not realize that the sheer volume of Catholic churches creates an issue. In times long ago people traveled hours to go to the cathedral. There were no more or less organists, there were fewer Churches.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Oh yeah, they would do it at their own expense. I knew another choir that did that and they ended up giving most of them away.
Father has asked me to take over that Mass with a cantor. He just has not told them yet.
Waiting for the blowback. Having a meeting this week.
St Cecilia pray for all of us!!! May cool heads prevail.

I would recommend telling them, but also having a well composed letter personalized to each of them.

For instance,

Sam,

Thank you for your 6 years as a tamborinist…

Molly,

Thank you for your 8 years on the bongos…

etc.

Concluding with

…our parish has come to the decision that we will no longer require this type of music at the 5pm mass. We hope you would join us in X ministry (taylor to each if possible).

It is important that this letter be clear, the music is stopping and there is nothing they can do to protest it. When given along with a verbal message, you’ll have much less questions and confusions afterward. You may also want to publish a note in the bulletin for parishioners so that it cuts down on gossip.

While you are doing a good thing they will no doubt feel slighted as you suspect. If the church has the funds it may be appropriate to give each a small token–perhaps a medal of St. Claire as a gift.

 

[jcrichton]

It is sad that we have taken so many liberties under the guise of “sensibilities.”

New does not automatically translates to better or improved.

The Mass is not a mass production of things or a conglomeration of trinkets and customs.

The Mass is the Celebration of the Immanuel–God with them/us.

Music that serves to join us to the world does not free us from the world; actually it helps to make the Divine mundane.

What does folk music do but bridge us to what the music genre offers.

Ie: rock: drug, sex, alcohol, more drugs, more sex more alcohol… other genres serve the same bridging function–connecting us to the world.

Yes, Scriptures does say that there’s a time for everything under the sun… but under the Son there should be holiness not entertainment, glamour, and sex appeal.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[exnihilo]

I never can understand how organ music is considered to be the ultimate in instruments for mass. Can someone explain that to me? Earlier, someone mention looking up at the crucifix and not wanting to hear certain instruments. Why is the organ okay? It is jarringly loud at times, and even when it’s not, it’s still an "electric"sound. I just don’t get what makes it so much more appropriate than a piano, or what is so wrong with guitars.

The pipe organ makes its sound like a human voice. This is why it most perfectly supports the human voice. Other instruments have a different quality in their sound. Guitar and piano have a percussive element to them based on how they are played. String instruments played with a bow have a different sound. Brass instruments are played by creating a buzzing in the lips and then passing air over the lips. This can be somewhat like the human voice and doesn’t have the percussive element.

The various instruments have different sound qualities. Some are more supportive of singing and blend into the background more.

An electric organ doesn’t sound like a pipe organ. When it is said the organ is superior it means a pipe organ. An electric organ can remind one of secular music like being at a ball game.

The style of music certainly makes a difference. You can play mellow guitar music and aggressive organ music. But if you want an instrument that best supports the human voice and doesn’t overshadow it that would be the organ.

 

[Mark121359]

It is sad that we have taken so many liberties under the guise of “sensibilities.”

New does not automatically translates to better or improved.

The Mass is not a mass production of things or a conglomeration of trinkets and customs.

The Mass is the Celebration of the Immanuel–God with them/us.

Music that serves to join us to the world does not free us from the world; actually it helps to make the Divine mundane.

What does folk music do but bridge us to what the music genre offers.

Ie: rock: drug, sex, alcohol, more drugs, more sex more alcohol… other genres serve the same bridging function–connecting us to the world.

Yes, Scriptures does say that there’s a time for everything under the sun… but under the Son there should be holiness not entertainment, glamour, and sex appeal.

Maran atha!

Angel

Yes! Very, very sad indeed! At my niece’s parish there is a huge drum set along with Marshall amps and electric guitars…all within fifteen feet of the Tabernacle. What a sacrilege! Nothing like attending Mass while at the same time having flashbacks of a Led Zeppelin concert!

 

[Irishmom2]

Irishmom2:

I never can understand how organ music is considered to be the ultimate in instruments for mass. Can someone explain that to me? Earlier, someone mention looking up at the crucifix and not wanting to hear certain instruments. Why is the organ okay? It is jarringly loud at times, and even when it’s not, it’s still an "electric"sound. I just don’t get what makes it so much more appropriate than a piano, or what is so wrong with guitars.

The pipe organ makes its sound like a human voice. This is why it most perfectly supports the human voice. Other instruments have a different quality in their sound. Guitar and piano have a percussive element to them based on how they are played. String instruments played with a bow have a different sound. Brass instruments are played by creating a buzzing in the lips and then passing air over the lips. This can be somewhat like the human voice and doesn’t have the percussive element.

The various instruments have different sound qualities. Some are more supportive of singing and blend into the background more.

An electric organ doesn’t sound like a pipe organ. When it is said the organ is superior it means a pipe organ. An electric organ can remind one of secular music like being at a ball game.

The style of music certainly makes a difference. You can play mellow guitar music and aggressive organ music. But if you want an instrument that best supports the human voice and doesn’t overshadow it that would be the organ.

I do not think an organ sounds like a human voice in any way. We have a pipe organ and I still say no.

As far as overshadowing a human voice, I can think of no other instrument capable of overshadowing in the manner which the organ can, and does, at our parish.

 

[exnihilo]

I do not think an organ sounds like a human voice in anyway. We have a pipe organ and I still say no.

As far as overshadowing a human voice, I can think of no other instrument capable of overshadowing in the manner which the organ can, and does, at our parish.

I didn’t say it sounds like a human voice. I said it makes its sound like the human voice.

As for overshadowing the voice any instrument could do it. The organ is one of those that can be made to do it the least. I mean you really can’t see a cranked up electric guitar with lots of effects as being able to completely drown out the human voice? You’ve never heard an organ play sustained tones accompanying the singing of a psalm?

 

[Irishmom2]

I may be possible, but if so, I haven’t heard that in over 20 years.

 

[pianistclare]

It is sad that we have taken so many liberties under the guise of “sensibilities.”

New does not automatically translates to better or improved.

The Mass is not a mass production of things or a conglomeration of trinkets and customs.

The Mass is the Celebration of the Immanuel–God with them/us.

Music that serves to join us to the world does not free us from the world; actually it helps to make the Divine mundane.

What does folk music do but bridge us to what the music genre offers.

Ie: rock: drug, sex, alcohol, more drugs, more sex more alcohol… other genres serve the same bridging function–connecting us to the world.

Yes, Scriptures does say that there’s a time for everything under the sun… but under the Son there should be holiness not entertainment, glamour, and sex appeal.

Maran atha!

Angel

What a terrible statement, and uninformed to boot.
Many cultures have as their primary instrument guitars. I doubt that each of those cultures is promoting sex 24-7.

I have yet to visit a parish I would consider “glamorous”.


No concerts, no. But that has to do with the PEOPLE, not the instrumentation.

 

[EricF]

I’m not sure Andrea Bocelli himself could make “Eagles Wings” tolerable.