Should we support our own?

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Billsannie,
Thank you so much. At last a post I agree with fully. I would love your reply to be spread far and wide. I am so grateful to you. Well said.
 
NoelFitz said:
not sure if Mr Kain (sic) supports abortion. From the web it seems he personally does not.

My claim is we should support our own. I am tribal. We hang together or hang separately. For too long anti-Catholicism flourished in the US, I think Catholics should not join in attacking our own.
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Noel, Mr Kain supports abortion or he couldnt have been Hillary Clintons vice president. Also, when it comes to the right to live there is no greater violation of that right than a marginalized group that is flat out denief that right. Developing social structures to address quality of life issues come second.
As far as sticking together, to me a Catholic cant be focusing effort that is adding to the current the Church is fighting and expect togetherness.
 
NoelFitz said:
I am grateful to all in CAF for support and encouragement and wish you all a blessed Christmas and a successful new year.

However, I am concerned at the polarization of Catholicism in the US and the lack of mutual support, respect and understanding. It often seems to me that the US Catholic bishops do not support Catholics in public life, in spite of the fact that Catholics participate fully in politics and American life, thus five of the last six speakers of the US House of Representatives were Catholics and two thirds of the Supreme Court are Catholic.

But often it seems the Church attacks Catholic politicians rather than supporting them. The Church is more than an anti-abortion lobby group.

This view was reinforced recently on reading about the treatment of Senator Tim Kaine, who seems an excellent person. I note that Archbishop Naumann has condemned him (‘Progressive’ Cardinal in running to head U.S. bishops’ pro-life activities | News | LifeSite).

Some in the Church would seem to prefer the views of the ex-Catholic Mike Pence to the practicing Tim Kaine.
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In other nations, some bishops excommunicate Catholic politicians who support political positions that are dogmatically against Church teaching. However, for various historical reasons, the bishops in the United States do not.

The difference between Catholic politicians like Democrat Tim Kaine and Republican Paul Ryan is the level their policy positions disagree with Church teaching.

The Democratic Party and the policies that Tim Kaine publicly supports go against Catholic Dogma.
– abortion, euthanasia, same sex marriage, etc.

However, when Republicans go against catholic teaching, it’s in areas where the Church officially teaches that prudential judgement can be used, even though the Church typically takes a stance. The death penalty, immigration control, and economic issues.

Furthermore, the Catholic Church teaches (perhaps even dogmatically) that socialism is wrong.

Catholic Democrats in the US often confuse liberalism and socialism with distributionism (which is an economic system based on Catholic Social teaching.

So the difference is that when Republican Catholic politicians go against the US Bishops or the Pope, it’s typically on issues where they are not breaking Catholic teaching, because it’s in areas where the Church has stated that it’s OK for individual Catholics to disagree with the Church without penalty of sin. However, when the Democrats go against Church teaching, its in areas when it’s a grave sin and often mortal.

So that’s the difference. If the US Bishops supported Catholic politicians like Tim Kaine, the bishops would be guilty of the moral sin of Scandal because they would be effectively supporting mortal sin. Where as when a bishop supports a Republican Catholic, they are typically not guilty of scandal because Republican Catholic politicians typically do not support positions that break Church teaching.
 
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Joe_5859
Thanks for a sensible reply. I appreciate your plea for balance.

Archbishop Naumann wrote:
‘Senator Kaine acknowledged he was blessed with great Irish Catholic parents and grew up in a wonderful faith-filled family. He also mentioned proudly that he is a graduate of Rockhurst High School, crediting the Jesuits with instilling within him a desire for public service and a commitment to advocate for the poor.’ (http://theleaven.org/our-choices-end-where-anothers-more-fundamental-right-begins)

However he claims Tim Kaine is ‘a cafeteria Catholic, picking and choosing the teachings of the Catholic Church that are politically convenient.’

It seems Archbishop Naumann would prefer an ex-Catholic to a practicing one for Vice President. Would he also prefer a President who has been divorced a number of time and does not condemn grabbing female genitalia to a person who went through difficult times in marriage but remained faithful?
 
NoelFitz said:
It seems Archbishop Naumann would prefer an ex-Catholic to a practicing one for Vice President. Would he also prefer a President who has been divorced a number of time and does not condemn grabbing female genitalia to a person who went through difficult times in marriage but remained faithful?
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Well, yes. Any Catholic bishop would prefer a protestant vs someone who claims to be a devout Catholic yet supports heresy. Donald Trump is a protestant and protestants do not believe divorce and remarriage is sinful. Plus, Canon Law only applies to Catholics, thus Trump is not subjected to Canon Law (though his wife is).

Mike Pence is a former Catholic therefore Canon Law does apply to him. However, Mike Pence does not support any political positions that the Catholic Church deems as heresy nor as Grave Sin (Mortal Sin).

Tim Kaine on the other hand publicly professes to be a Catholic and publicly professes that his heretical political positions and support for political positions the Church teaches to be Gravely Sinful are not in conflict with his Catholic faith.

Therefore, Kaine commits grave sin almost every time he publicly discusses his Catholic faith and how his faith supports same sex marriage, abortion, etc.

BTW - it’s also important to remember that Hillary Clinton is not only a strong supporter of abortion, but is a strong supporter of “Freedom of Worship” vs “Freedom of Religion.” Hillary supported the lawsuit against the Little Sisters of the Poor and other law suits against the Catholic Church in the US.

There have been several law suits filed against the government by the Catholic Church. Practically all of them are against laws put into place and supported by democrats. I’m actually not aware of a single law suit by the Church against a Republican backed law (not saying they don’t exist, but I’m not aware of any).

Hillary, was also very strong in her view that religious Dogmas must change in the United States.

All of these positions are a direct threat to the Catholic Church and to American Catholics - and all other religious Americans of good will.

I pray this helps.

God bless
 
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“NoelFitz said:
seems Archbishop Naumann would prefer an ex-Catholic to a practicing one for Vice /quote]

going to Mass recieving the Sacraments mean little if doing it doesn’t produce acts of faith in accordance with what Catholics believe. I know Catholics who believe in reincarnation, karma, reject the priesthood. If asked why are they still Catholic if they don’t believe what it teaches, the typical reply is that the Church will come around.
Catholics whos behavior betrays their nonbelief in every way but attending Mass are not ‘actually’ practicing their faith where it counts There is nothing to point to that would distinguish Mr Kain as Catholic.
Noel, even if Mr Trump did do some bad things. His personality isn’t what matters as much to me as his policies. Same with Mr. Kain.
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NoelFitz said:
we should support our own.
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Well, if a guy is touting what a big Catholic he is and then in the next breath is coming out saying he’s pro-abortion, then I don’t consider him “My own”, I consider him somebody who’d probably sell his own grandma to win an election.

And I’m not in love with the guy who is raised Catholic and then ditches the faith for some evangelical Protestant church either.
 
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Yes, if you’re hoping to get Catholic’s to vote for you by saying you’re Catholic you need to vote like a Catholic. If two candidates were aligned with Catholic teaching, one Catholic one non Catholic then I would vote for the Catholic.
 
NoelFitz said:
of course one does not support abortion, but if Catholic politicians support justice, health care, decent education, decent living conditions and fair taxes they should be supported.
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Not if they support abortion. If a politician was good in a number of areas but very pro-abortion, it doesn’t matter how good they are in the other areas. This “seamless garment” philospohy where other justice issues are weighed to be the same as the pro-life issue is not how Catholics should vote.
 
Benadam said:
As far as sticking together, to me a Catholic cant be focusing effort that is adding to the current the Church is fighting and expect togetherness.
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Benadam,
Thanks for your contribution.
I want to make it clear that as a Catholic I am pro-life. So I am not advocating support for abortion. I am suggesting loyalty to the Church, ourselves, the people of God, the Mystical Body of Christ.
One should not go around the town ‘bad-mouthing’ one’s family, friends and colleagues.
My family may not be perfect, but I should not go around publicly giving out about them.
One does not support a team and then run down its players in public.
The enemies of the Church rejoice when we insult ourselves. It is not very clever or productive to squabble in public.
 
Phil19034,
When a Republic goes against the Church it is OK, when a Democrat does it is morally wrong.
Republians are pro-life, they are good, Democrats are pro-choice they are bad. Is it really that simple? Republicans are in power in the US, what have they done to ban abortion and repealing Roe vs. Wade?

I note:
It is almost as if Republicans are taking the advice that Sen. John McCain dished out shortly after the party got spanked in the 2012 elections. The Arizona Republican went on Fox News Sunday and said that the party should “leave the issue alone” because it hurts them with young voters and women. His basic point was that Republicans should talk about how they’re pro-life, but avoid actually doing anything about it.
At the moment, this seems to be the House Republican leadership’s strategy. National Journal reported that Rep. Renee Ellmers told her colleagues that voting for the 20-week ban could hurt them with millennials. They proceeded to pull the bill at the last minute, and House leadership is currently scrambling to rewrite the language of the 20-week ban in a way more amenable to some members.
The Republican Party isn’t as pro-life as you think: The GOP’s abortion stance isn’t as clear as it once was.

If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. (Mk. 3:24-25 NAB)
United we stand as Catholics.
 
NoelFitz said:
I am not advocating support for abortion. I am advocating loyalty to the Church,
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Hi Noel,
I’m suggesting that by supporting a.public figure that identifies as Catholic and publicly supports abortion you aren’t being loyal to the Church because the Church doesnt approve of those who are publicly being disloyal to its teachings.
NoelFitz said:
One does not support a team and then run down its players in public.
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So True. That is what pro-abortion politicians that identify as Catholic do.
 
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NoelFitz said:
One should not go around the town ‘bad-mouthing’ one’s family, friends and colleagues.

My family may not be perfect, but I should not go around publicly giving out about them.
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I think it is not the private issues that are at play here. It is the public record for support of pro life issues. They make this public themselves. It is public record.

They also publicly profess that they are Catholic.

It is like saying “I am a baseball player! But I use a large orange ball and shoot it through a hoop. No bats. No bases. But still baseball!”

No it isn’t.
 
NoelFitz said:
Abortion is not the only action condemned in the Didache. It also condemns greedy, rapacious, hypocritical, spiteful and haughty people.
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Absolutely. But we, the Church, are a “Field Hospital,” right? This is spiritual triage. Until the massacre of hundreds of thousands of innocent lives ends, the other issues that affect human life, though no less important, don’t get the same level of priority. In comparison to the death toll from abortion, and only in comparison to the death toll from abortion, those numbers pale. Which should indicate why abortion is so vile. Even horrible atrocities pale in comparison to what is done through abortion.

If we end abortion, the other issues immerse as the primary pro-life issues.

They can’t really be set side by side, though, until then. Not if you look at numbers.
 
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A friend of mine talked about it that way. It’s already been borrowed. Lol! And he said he heard it from another. Borrow away!
 
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