Should we watch Michael Voris?

[MagdalenaRita]

So you are saying you know more about the Church’s teaching on Judaism then the Cardinal

It is certainly an official Church document. It is not magisterial, which means it does not have the same level of authority of, say, an encyclical. It is authored by a Pontifical Commission

the document you dismiss

I have not said that I know more than the Cardinal but I take him at his word that the document is just a reflection. I think we are going round and round in a circle. The document you linked is, yes, from the Vatican. It is from the Pontifical Commission but the document itself says it is not Church teaching but a reflection. I have not dismissed it. I have actually given you several quotes from the document itself that indicate that Christians are still to dialogue and be witnesses of Christ to the Jewish people.

I, also have said that the Old Covenant is fullfilled in the Church as stated here in CCC 778: The Church is both the means and the goal of God’s plan: prefigured in creation, prepared for in the Old Covenant, founded by the words and actions of Jesus Christ, fulfilled by his redeeming cross and his Resurrection,

Church teaching is clear on this point, and it is not what Voris is putting forward. Follow him if you want, or follow the Popes and the Church. It is not possible to do both.

I have listened to Michael Voris, who I believe does a pretty good job, but I follow the Catholic church.

Pope Pius XII Mystici Corporis Christi: “And first of all, by the death of our Redeemer, the New Testament took the place of the Old Law.”

Pope John Paul II end note in Redemptoris Mater: “That is to say, the period marked by the promise made to Abraham and by the Law mediated by Moses has now reached its climax, in the sense that Christ fulfills the divine promise and supersedes the old law.”

Cardinal Ratzinger: “Thus the Sinai [Mosaic] Covenant is indeed superseded” Many Religions, One Covenant

St. Augustine: " “Instead of the grace of the law which has passed away, we have received the grace of the gospel which is abiding; and instead of the shadows and types of the old dispensation, the truth has come by Jesus Christ. Jeremiah also prophesied thus in God’s name: ‘Behold, the days come, says the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah…’ Observe what the prophet says, not to Gentiles, who had not been partakers in any former covenant, but to the Jewish nation. He who has given them the law by Moses, promises in place of it the New Covenant of the gospel, that they might no longer live in the oldness of the letter, but in the newness of the spirit”

As I said, I think we are going around the same argument, so I will try to end things here. As I said earlier, we are to love our Jewish brothers and sisters and we definitely want to share all of God’s love with them and definitely encourage them to the Eucharist and pray for their salvation.

God bless.

 

[OKComputer]

Couldn’t agree more.

 

[Maxirad]

sigh

 

[pnewton]

Vloggers often engage in this sort of meta-feuding, whatabout-ism, and charges of hypocrisy.

 

[Delphinus]

My problem with Voris is his gross misrepresentation of church leadership. He had utterly trashed Bishop Barron as being a syncretist…which made me do some digging on Barron and find a man whose teaching about Catholic faith and love for Christ bring me even deeper in love with Catholicism.

I won’t say he straight up lied, but he used deceptive editing of video clips made from secular sites to paint Barron as, frankly, a Judas. It absolutely killed me when I learned the truth and watched the full interview that Voris had edited beyond recognition. When one engages in such deceptive methods, is causes me to doubt everything else that they say.

 

[CapitalistCatholic]

While I don’t agree with Voris on Bishop Barron, I do think the Bishop should clarify what he meant on “a reasonable hope that none may go to hell” when we know there will be people in Hell.

 

[Delphinus]

I think he did a video on that that goes into more depth.

There’s also a lot of others on the topic of hell so you can piece things together.

 

[Maxirad]

Check out this article by Catholic Answers apologist Tim Staples.

 

[pnewton]

The article is that Fr. Barron agreed with Hans von Balthasar, not with Tim Staples, and they are wrong. Balthasar was one of the greatest theologians of the Twentieth Century, honored by Pope John VI and named a cardinal by St. John Paul (though he died before he became a Catholic).

I agree with neither, though I am sympathetic to that position. This means nothing. The point is, there a way to legitimately hold hope that all will be saved within Catholic theology, whether I, you, Tim or Mike, agree. It is not a heresy.

 

[Michael_Anthony]

I have 2 issues with Church Militant (henceforth abbreviated CM) my first is that they always take an extremely upset tone, often trying to take a “victim” role seeking just to make people outraged. My second issue, is that in this process, they dig for any little thing and blow it out of proportion, for example, there was an issue with one graduate level English course where the professor (then department chair) assigned a book that was basically pornographic in content, and CM made it seem like the entire school was going to pot, and the president’s reaction to be so inadequate that he should have been fired. Initially I agreed with CM but after visiting FUS (I just finished Junior year of HS), and listening to a podcast from two FUS alumni, I have ceased to see things that way.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Check out this article by Catholic Answers apologist Tim Staples.

Thank you for this article. There are others who have been very concerned with Bishop Barron’s statements on hell also.

Balthasar was one of the greatest theologians of the Twentieth Century, honored by Pope John VI and named a cardinal by St. John Paul (though he died before he became a Catholic).

Not everyone sees Balthasar as a great theologian. He was heavily influenced by Reformed theology, Calvinism.

 

[Crusader13]

The article is that Fr. Barron agreed with Hans von Balthasar, not with Tim Staples, and they are wrong.

The article was about how Bishop Barron and Balthasar did not agree with the Church, not Tim staples.

It’s a nice sentiment, but it’s not supported in Catholic Theology, which is why it is consistently refuted. Nobody is saying Bishop Barron does not have a deep love for his faith. However, that doesn’t mean he is incapable of making mistakes or being incorrect in his interpretation of salvation and hell.

Sometimes his responses and statements focus more on being pastoral instead of candid. Like his privileged vs non privileged response to Ben Shapiro.

 

[pnewton]

Perhaps my word was too much opinion. Rather let me say an honored theologian by two popes.

 

[pnewton]

The article was about how Bishop Barron and Balthasar did not agree with the Church, not Tim staples.

This is just begging the question, that is, circular reasoning. As Tim Staples is the author, all that is known from the article is that he disagrees with Tim Staples. He also disagrees with St. Thomas Aquinas as well. As far as disagreeing with the Church, that can only be said if the Church is taken in this matter as the position contrary to him, a circle.

Sometimes his responses and statements focus more on being pastoral instead of candid.

Maybe true. There is something pastoral in growing the virtue of hope.

 

[Crusader13]

Maybe true. There is something pastoral in growing the virtue of hope.

I’m all for Hope as well, yet hope cannot be the overarching theme when teaching about salvation and hell without talking about the requirements that Jesus spoke of in order to enter the Kingdom.

Meaning, when someone asks the question about what they need to do to enter heaven or in Ben Shapiro’s case, if he was damned without having that belief, it might be pastoral to say, no you don’t need to be Catholic, you don’t even need to believe in God, because Vatican II says that all can be saved and therefore we have a reasonable hope that all will be saved.

If you want to give them real hope, tell them their salvation lies in Jesus, baptism, the Eucharist, all of which can be found here in the Catholic Church.

Don’t try to assuage their fears by having them cling to a possibility that they might be saved in their ignorance.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

There is something pastoral in growing the virtue of hope.

I see it as two choices. We can hope that everyone is saved and no one is in hell as Balthasar and Barron propose or we can follow the Church and it’s Traditions, and Our Lady’s instructions given to the children of Fatima; a vision of hell. A vision where they saw souls of “poor sinners”.

As Our Lady spoke these last words, she opened her hands once more, as she had done during the two previous months. The rays of light seemed to penetrate the earth, and we saw as it were a sea of fire. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke now falling back on every side like sparks in huge fires, without weight or equilibrium, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. (It must have been this sight which caused me to cry out, as people say they heard me). The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repellent likeness to frightful and unknown animals, black and transparent like burning coals. Terrified and as if to plead for succour, we looked up at Our Lady, who said to us, so kindly and so sadly: You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, MANY souls will be saved and there will be peace. Sister Lucia

and she said

“pray much and make sacrifices for sinners, for many souls go to hell because there is no one to make sacrifices for them.”

The Catholic church has always taught that souls who die in mortal sin suffer eternal punishment in hell. We do not know who that is because it is not our place to know but we know there is a hell. We also know we can pray for the deceased that they were granted final repentance and then have hope that God will answer our prayers, yes.

 

[pnewton]

I see it as two choices.

Indeed there are not only two choices, but a whole lot in between. As I said, I do not see things as Fr. Barron does, but I understand that the position he holds, and was held by Balthazar, was not condemned by the Church. Theologians can be as bad as any other PhD in believing absurdities, and still not contradict the Church.

 

[Delphinus]

Lots of people on the topic, so I’ll just do a general reply instead of replying to someone.

I don’t think that Barron et al. are suggesting that we know that Hell is empty, rather that we can have a reasonable hope this is true. Meaning: there is a logical way to approach a hope that many will be saved from this outcome. Is it what actually happens? Probably not. Frankly, I look at the world and hold a very dim hope of this. But there is logic to believe it is possible. I admit it’s comforting to me since I am the only Christian in my biological family. I want to cling to some hope that God can still reach them in the end. It sure helps me sleep a little better at night since I cannot have contact with my biological family for the physical safety of myself and my husband and kid.

That being said, “You shall know them by their fruits.” Bishop Barron is fighting tooth and nail as an evangelist on the front lines. Even if this belief is flawed, his fruits show the work of a man who believes Hell is very real, people are in very real danger, and working to bring Christ’s light to the lost. This speaks louder to me than anything, really.

To bring this back to the original topic, Bishop Barron is out evangelizing. Voris is producing heavily edited and deceptive materials that show a striking lack of charity and obedience to the Church. I admit, some of what he says is probably needed. Sadly, this accounts for very little of his content. This was the point I was hoping to make, rather than the merits of Bishop Barron’s claim about Hell.

 

[CurtisHouse]

There’s no way I could reply to everybody here. Seems like the subject of Michael Voris is as divisive as ever. I live in Fresno, California, and CM just did a special report about a Monsignor in my area’s diocese. So glad he brought this to attention. Get these sick people out of the Church and behind bars, where they belong, never to hurt another child again.

 

[Eliza10]

Michael Voris needs to chill. I don’t like his delivery. In the end, I’m very concerned he’ll do more harm than good.

After watching some Voris videos and liking them, I also later began feel he maybe he “needs to chill”.

When his past came out, I thought, “No WONDER he is so harsh on gays. He is an ex.” And I wondered about his parents, since I had only heard him speak well of them (my experience with homosexual-oriented folk I know is there is always a type of childhood issue).

Then I watched Taylor/Tim interview Voris. I was anxious to see this show, wondering how they, who are “chill”, would interview with Voris, who lacked chill.

Well the video interview was VERY illuminating. It was long, but I was engaged. What took me by surprise was how respectful Taylor and Tim were to Voris. I expected some reserve, at least, not camaraderie. Also Voris was relaxed and real. I truly got a sense of who he was.

So I no longer think he is “not chill”. He is just more zealous and driven than most people. I imagine Paul was like him. He has a serious strong heart for the truth, and seemed to be BORN this way. Clearly, Voris today is not so different from the Voris of his childhood. That just made him seem more genuine to me.

He lovingly described his parents and it became quite clear what were the issues at the core of his pain that led him off the rails in spite of a caring upbringing. His mother was lovely, as he said, but had a serious mental illness. For anyone living with a bi-polar person, they will find this part of Voris’ life illuminating and inspiring. An interesting, different, and inspiring family story.

Anyway, because of that interview, I feel I now “get” who Voris is, and I like him.

Here is a 3-minute presentation of that interview for those who are curious to know what I am talking about, but have SHORT attention spans : Voris Interview Highlights

And the full interview - its very entertaining and real, and I recommend it: Voris Full Interview

The following quotes are what my husband JUST said, as I replayed parts of that interview. We always see things from completely different points of view (and I always find his view interesting!). That interview changed his Voris views, too, but in a different way and for different reasons:

"That is the video that really made me like Voris. Before I didn’t understand who he was or what his sense of humor was about - he just sort of rubbed me the wrong way. That show really made me understand Michael Voris… I understand that the occasional outrageous comparison/connection he makes is part of his sense of humor.

“Then when I understood he had been an old school journalist, a real investigative reporter, accustomed to investigating stuff and being VERY careful what he said because he was living in a world where to say something that could be challenged could be libelous. So I understood when he speaks about Cupich, for example, that he has done his homework and knows what is going on.”