Shouldn't we warn against Mary worship?

[po18guy]

My distrust is warranted because she is worshiped. I do love Mary, and know she can be venerated. All His work in her is based on a singularly great amount of grace in her. That is why a simple little girl can be so important to all mankind. I think she kept herself holy through her consent to Him throughout her life and that’s why she is mother to all.

Do you assume she is worshipped? Are you assigning worship where none exists? That is perhaps the greater danger.

 

[rcwitness]

Do you assume she is worshipped? Are you assigning worship where none exists? That is perhaps the greater danger.

Are you reading the Posts! Read 54 and 55

 

[brb3]

As they say, you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make 'em drink.

Thats not much of a defense…of your claim of Mary worship& that the Church has encouraged you to do so. Lets hope you will recant this claim … and return to worshiping only The Lord your God !!!
Please recall the FIRST and Great Commandment given to Moses.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Do you quite understand that the word ‘worship’ does not historically mean 'that act of adoration offered to God alone? Have you ever studied word etymology?

The fact that some people prefer to keep a historical definition rather than accept a truncated one doesn’t mean that the poster worships Mary ‘as God’. It means that he or she offers ‘worth ship’ to Mary as the Mother of God.

British judges are referred to even today as "your Worship’. seriously. look it up.

Do you think British people worship their judges? Really?

I do NOT, never have and never will, worship Mary as God.

I WILL offer her ‘worth-ship’ (but never, ever mistake her for my Lord and Creator or as equivalent to God) because she is WORTHY of admiration as the Mother of God.

That IS the historical definition of worship.

And I for one am TIRED of having perfectly good words REDEFINED by others and then having them DEMAND that I use that REDEFINITION and ONLY that redefinition as being the ‘real deal’.

Please understand --I do not believe Mary is God or in any way equivalent to God.

But she is worthy of the ‘worth-ship’ as historically understood, being admired and held as ‘worthy’ as the Mother of God, just as saints and good people are worthy and have Worth ship.

 

[po18guy]

Are you reading the Posts! Read 54 and 55

So, two people that are mistaken as to Church teaching, and arrive after you begin this thread are evidence of, what? Error in judgment. What does the Church teach?

The fact that certain individuals are in error is cause to seek correction of those individuals. The Church teaches clearly that God, and God alone, is to be worshipped. If we chance upon others who violate this teaching, then it is our duty to correct it.

But, we must also not judge based solely upon appearances.

I am not sure that one of those posts is even real.

 

[brb3]

Do you quite understand that the word ‘worship’ does not historically mean 'that act of adoration offered to God alone? Have you ever studied word etymology?

The fact that some people prefer to keep a historical definition rather than accept a truncated one doesn’t mean that the poster worships Mary ‘as God’. It means that he or she offers ‘worth ship’ to Mary as the Mother of God.

British judges are referred to even today as "your Worship’. seriously. look it up.

Do you think British people worship their judges? Really?

I do NOT, never have and never will, worship Mary as God.

I WILL offer her ‘worth-ship’ (but never, ever mistake her for my Lord and Creator or as equivalent to God) because she is WORTHY of admiration as the Mother of God.

That IS the historical definition of worship.

And I for one am TIRED of having perfectly good words REDEFINED by others and then having them DEMAND that I use that REDEFINITION and ONLY that redefinition as being the ‘real deal’.

Please understand --I do not believe Mary is God or in any way equivalent to God.

But she is worthy of the ‘worth-ship’ as historically understood, being admired and held as ‘worthy’ as the Mother of God, just as saints and good people are worthy and have Worth ship.

Tatum Ergo …

The Church has taught us the proper word to use regarding showing our feelings toward Mary …and IT’S NOT the word Worship !!!

Just let a few Protestants read this …and our hopes of Ecumenism become immensely more difficult !!!

Words matter !! Lets be careful to teach our brethren the gospel truth on Mary…which is what Mary wants of us. She doesn’t want to be worshipped …or for us to take our eye /minds off Christ – HER KING !!

 

[JIB]

This is an interesting thread. I’ve seen a lot of people spend more time focusing on Mary than anything else. Yes, the Church teaches the correct understanding, but there is a problem with people going overboard. Seeing people proclaim that they worship Mary doesn’t help. I think it’s important that Catholics make it crystal clear what a devotion to Mary means and what it does not mean.

I work with someone that has a very strong “devotion” to Mary. This person appears more concerned with devotion to Mary than talking about Jesus or God or anything else at all. The protestants I work with get the message that Catholics worship Mary, not God. This is not good.

 

[JRKH]

Very well stated! Saint Louis-Marie Grignion de Montfort would be considered extreme to many.

Yes - And from what I have gathered in discussions here his path should ONLY understood in it’s whole cloth. By that I mean that sharing bits and pieces of his path fairly invites misunderstanding.

But the Church chose to make him a Saint. And you can be sure that Church theologians went through his writings such as “True Devotion To Mary” with a fine-toothed comb searching for the slightest error or anything that deviated from Church teachings.

This makes sense.

But as it is many, including Blessed JPll, Blessed Teresa of Calcutta, St. Maximilian Kolbe to name a few made this consecration to Mary. And all of the Franciscan Priests of EWTN as well as Mother Angelica and her Poor Clares of Perpetual Adoration Sisters did as well.

Yup - and yet such a high level of devotion still remains a private decision.
As it should be - for our Mother desires that she she be a help to her Son and not become a distraction.
What a Great Mother.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

rcwitness,
I know that you have a good heart and are trying to express valid concerns…but in skimming through the discussion here, I just don’t think you have been able to express it very well.

There have been many threads recently discussing various aspects of this matter and they tend to all have certain things in common.

1. The Latin terms involved and their definitions can allow for the term “worship” to be used and still not mean doing something wrong. As someone mentioned above…the term worship has been used for centuries and indeed is still used today to refer to certain high officials.
2. There will always be those who feel that others are either overdoing - or underdoing their devotion to Our Lady. It has been my experience that in neither case are the people actually violating the teachings of the Church.
3. Many pages will wind up being filled with discussion back and forth about items number one and number two.

This will be my last post on this thread…As I have been around this block enough times already.

God Bless

Peace
James

 

[rcwitness]

Do you quite understand that the word ‘worship’ does not historically mean 'that act of adoration offered to God alone? Have you ever studied word etymology?

The fact that some people prefer to keep a historical definition rather than accept a truncated one doesn’t mean that the poster worships Mary ‘as God’. It means that he or she offers ‘worth ship’ to Mary as the Mother of God.

British judges are referred to even today as "your Worship’. seriously. look it up.

Do you think British people worship their judges? Really?

I do NOT, never have and never will, worship Mary as God.

I WILL offer her ‘worth-ship’ (but never, ever mistake her for my Lord and Creator or as equivalent to God) because she is WORTHY of admiration as the Mother of God.

That IS the historical definition of worship.

And I for one am TIRED of having perfectly good words REDEFINED by others and then having them DEMAND that I use that REDEFINITION and ONLY that redefinition as being the ‘real deal’.

Please understand --I do not believe Mary is God or in any way equivalent to God.

But she is worthy of the ‘worth-ship’ as historically understood, being admired and held as ‘worthy’ as the Mother of God, just as saints and good people are worthy and have Worth ship.

Yes, I have heard this explanation. And I consider it regarding documents in the Church years past. It is well understood by folks in modern time what is meant by worship. If someone cared to differentiate worship and adore regarding their devotion, I would understand. But like I keep repeating, its not to judge anyones devotion, that is for the Lord. I am trying to make a point; we as defenders of our mother and the commands of our Lord have a duty to distinguish by an immeasurable amount the distinction between our adoration of God and our honor to our mother “in Him”.

 

[JCnMe]

Personally- until God appoints any of us as the “worship” police…It’s not something to concern yourself with-… I really think everyone should just work on their own relationship with the Blessed Mother…The Father and the Son hold her in the Highest regard- a level of love and respect for her none of us can even hope to duplicate… so I have to ask who are you worried about offending with extra attention for Mary? Certaiinly not her Son or the Father- they started it…:thumbsup:

 

[rcwitness]

So, two people that are mistaken as to Church teaching, and arrive after you begin this thread are evidence of, what? Error in judgment. What does the Church teach?

The fact that certain individuals are in error is cause to seek correction of those individuals. The Church teaches clearly that God, and God alone, is to be worshipped. If we chance upon others who violate this teaching, then it is our duty to correct it.

But, we must also not judge based solely upon appearances.

I am not sure that one of those posts is even real.

po18guy,
I respect you as an elder in this forum and look forward to your wisdom in threads to come. You asked me if I was assuming people worship her, as if I am fabricating things. I showed you a couple responses. Do you think they are extremely rare in this whole world? You also allude to perhaps myself making these posts up. Please test my spirit. I am not here to cause scandal. I love this forum. I love the Church, and I love our Mother Mary.

Peace,
Michael

 

[Jeanne_S]

Personally- until God appoints any of us as the “worship” police…It’s not something to concern yourself with-… I really think everyone should just work on their own relationship with the Blessed Mother…The Father and the Son hold her in the Highest regard- a level of love and respect for her none of us can even hope to duplicate… so I have to ask who are you worried about offending with extra attention for Mary? Certaiinly not her Son or the Father- they started it…:thumbsup:

Can’t we just love her?How in the world is that worship?

 

[rcwitness]

rcwitness,
I know that you have a good heart and are trying to express valid concerns…but in skimming through the discussion here, I just don’t think you have been able to express it very well.

This will be my last post on this thread…As I have been around this block enough times already.

God Bless

Peace
James

Thanks James,
I enjoy your wisdom and also look forward to your posts in the future. I don’t know what I haven’t expressed well enough, however. Is it that complicated? We honor Mary who is our mother in Christ and ask for her prayers. We worship and adore Christ who brings eternal life and wisdom from Himself, His Father and the Holy Spirit and gives to all who keep His commandments (including His mother).
I know you have given alot of time to this thread and I like your spirit. Thanks man,
Michael

 

[JCnMe]

Jeanne S

 

[po18guy]

po18guy,
I respect you as an elder in this forum and look forward to your wisdom in threads to come. You asked me if I was assuming people worship her, as if I am fabricating things. I showed you a couple responses. Do you think they are extremely rare in this whole world? You also allude to perhaps myself making these posts up. Please test my spirit. I am not here to cause scandal. I love this forum. I love the Church, and I love our Mother Mary.

Peace,
Michael

Thank you for the kind words. I do not think you are fabricating anything. I thought you might have been over-reacting just a bit. Certainly, if someone worships anything other than God - no matter what it is, we should warn them. It is just that there are many levels of hyper-dulia, and I am not an expert at distinguishing between them. Unless worship of something/someone other than God is explicitly expressed, I would prefer to err on the side of charity and assume that their spirituality is genuine - and probably more profound than my own. That’s all that I am trying to express.

 

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[rcwitness]

This will be my last reply, unless someone has any questions for me. I think its ran it’s course and it will always come up again.
In conclusion of this discussion, I have definately received my answer, personally. Since becoming Catholic I have had to defend our faith to many protestants including my family, friends, pastors i’ve worked with in the past and pastors i’ve become friends with now. I have always tried my best to explain our faith, teachings and doctrines the best I can. I’m no genius or saint. Now, when it comes to Mary, I know our doctrines are hard to accept. I DO ACCEPT them. More importantly, I love Mary and think the Catholic faith illuminates the mysteries of the participation with heaven and earth and Saints and the Lord. Also, her motherhood and the Churches motherhood brings fullfilment in the Family of the Church. That being said, I have to agree with many of our protestant brothers and sister that some Catholics idolize her. So part of my desire in the ministry of the Gospel is to remind my Catholic brothers and sisters to know and practice a definite and entirely different reverence, honor, worship, glory, respect and adoration between Mary and God.
I really thought, in this forum, I would get much more support and understanding. Many wanted to show me more teaching of how we should venerate and admire her but missed the point of distinguishing the need to combat excessive attention to the creature rather than the creator. Some flat out defend worshiping her. And others try to dismiss or excuse away the importance of a real understanding that Mary, in all her glory, is never intended to be worshiped or idolized. She is the mother to all who keep the commandments of the Lord. Devoting ourselves to her needs to be in very well understood terms. To pray the Rosary must bring focus to Jesus. Asking for her prayers must be with understanding that she is only asking our Lord for something. Venerating her life is truly loving the Holy Spirit’s mighty works in her.
This is sound reasoning and true Christian Spirit. My mother in law is in Brasil. She has devotion to our mother. I love her faith, and know we have been blessed with her prayers. But the service to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is evident in her faith. She attends to the Lord first and always. But has relationship to Our Lady in a way that is honorable to God.
For all those who defended my effort in this thread, Thank You so much! I became discouraged a little and was uplifted by your support.
God Bless All and my prayers are with you,
see you in the forum.
Michael

 

[brb3]

This will be my last reply, unless someone has any questions for me. I think its ran it’s course and it will always come up again.
In conclusion of this discussion, I have definately received my answer, personally. Since becoming Catholic I have had to defend our faith to many protestants including my family, friends, pastors i’ve worked with in the past and pastors i’ve become friends with now. I have always tried my best to explain our faith, teachings and doctrines the best I can. I’m no genius or saint. Now, when it comes to Mary, I know our doctrines are hard to accept. I DO ACCEPT them. More importantly, I love Mary and think the Catholic faith illuminates the mysteries of the participation with heaven and earth and Saints and the Lord. Also, her motherhood and the Churches motherhood brings fullfilment in the Family of the Church. That being said, I have to agree with many of our protestant brothers and sister that some Catholics idolize her. So part of my desire in the ministry of the Gospel is to remind my Catholic brothers and sisters to know and practice a definite and entirely different reverence, honor, worship, glory, respect and adoration between Mary and God.
I really thought, in this forum, I would get much more support and understanding. Many wanted to show me more teaching of how we should venerate and admire her but missed the point of distinguishing the need to combat excessive attention to the creature rather than the creator. Some flat out defend worshiping her. And others try to dismiss or excuse away the importance of a real understanding that Mary, in all her glory, is never intended to be worshiped or idolized. She is the mother to all who keep the commandments of the Lord. Devoting ourselves to her needs to be in very well understood terms. To pray the Rosary must bring focus to Jesus. Asking for her prayers must be with understanding that she is only asking our Lord for something. Venerating her life is truly loving the Holy Spirit’s mighty works in her.
This is sound reasoning and true Christian Spirit. My mother in law is in Brasil. She has devotion to our mother. I love her faith, and know we have been blessed with her prayers. But the service to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is evident in her faith. She attends to the Lord first and always. But has relationship to Our Lady in a way that is honorable to God.
For all those who defended my effort in this thread, Thank You so much! I became discouraged a little and was uplifted by your support.
God Bless All and my prayers are with you,
see you in the forum.
Michael

I too share your VALID concerns. Nowhere does our Church teach the word WORSHIP for our prayers to her or any other saint. Marian devotees should cease using the term worship…in regards to their devotional talk to Mary. It is not now, or ever will be, proper and fitting to suggest we are taught in Catholic doctrines to WORSHIP ANYONE, except the LORD OUR GOD, expressed in the Three Persons, Father/ Son / Holy Spirit.

 

[JM3]

Thats not much of a defense…of your claim of Mary worship& that the Church has encouraged you to do so. Lets hope you will recant this claim … and return to worshiping only The Lord your God !!!
Please recall the FIRST and Great Commandment given to Moses.

I think my posts have made my position very clear. The fact that people do not know the english language is the problem.

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/worship

worship - noun

1 chiefly British: a person of importance —used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2 reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also: an act of expressing such reverence
3 a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4 extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem

worship - verb

transitive verb

1 to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power
2 **to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion **

intransitive verb

to perform or take part in worship or an act of worship