G
guanophore
Guest
I am opening this thread at the request of Zundrah, who is currently grappling with the Catholic Teaching, in contrast to the Methodist tradition.
Zundrah:
- Status
J
JRKH
Guest
Perhaps we should begin by defining “Eucharist” so that we can be sure that we and Zundrah are discussing the same thing.
Are talking about the Holy communion by which it is the real presence of Christ in the appearance of bread and wine?
Also, once the definition of hte discussion is clear, I think it would be foolish to limit the discussion to only what is in the Bible. If Zundrah wishes to understand what the Early Church believed and understood about the Eucharist, she should be willing to look at the Church Father’s as well. It is they who can tell us better, what “Scripture” supports since they were closer to the originators of the Scriptures and their interpretations.
Peace
James
Are talking about the Holy communion by which it is the real presence of Christ in the appearance of bread and wine?
Also, once the definition of hte discussion is clear, I think it would be foolish to limit the discussion to only what is in the Bible. If Zundrah wishes to understand what the Early Church believed and understood about the Eucharist, she should be willing to look at the Church Father’s as well. It is they who can tell us better, what “Scripture” supports since they were closer to the originators of the Scriptures and their interpretations.
Peace
James
G
guanophore
Guest
An excellent beginning, James!
I agree that it is best not to limit the discussion to what is in Scripture. It has been proven many times that the contents of the Scripture is easy to misunderstand. The writings of the Fathers show how the Scriptures were understood by the disciples of the Apostles.
Also, Zundrah seems to agree that Eucharist is referenced in the Gospels, and I would like to know if we are in agreement on where and what this is.
C
ChadS
Guest
Could Zundrah be pointed towards Corinthians where St. Paul warns us not to take communion in an unworthy manner lest we eat and drink condemnation upon ourselves. Also, in the same part Paul talks about blessing the bread which is an explicit reference to the words of institution spoken by Christ in the Gospels. So there is one place outside of Gospels where Communion and the Eucharist is mentioned.
ChadS
ChadS
G
guanophore
Guest
Absolutely! That was my first impulse as well, but I realized that James is right, we have to define terms, first. some people don’t think that Jn. 6 has anything to do with Eucharist.
E
Eucharisted
Guest
Breaking of the bread is an ancient term for the Eucharist, and we find this term in the gospels, in Acts, and in the apostolic letters.
Fish and bread are ancient symbols for the Eucharist, and we find them in Christian graffiti, in the gospels, and in Acts.
The Eucharist is the spiritual fulfillment of the Passover, and it is inseperable from the Passion, which is the physical fulfillment of the Passover. This has to do with Jesus being the Lamb of God and the Messiah. Only a lamb could be sacrificed according to the Mosaic Law, and the Messiah, according to rabbinic tradition, was suppose to make all sacrifices cease save for one: the thanksgiving sacrifice. The Eucharist sacrifice - thanksgiving sacrifice - is the perpetuation of the thanksgiving sacrfice, instituted by Our Lord, Jesus Christ.
Fish and bread are ancient symbols for the Eucharist, and we find them in Christian graffiti, in the gospels, and in Acts.
The Eucharist is the spiritual fulfillment of the Passover, and it is inseperable from the Passion, which is the physical fulfillment of the Passover. This has to do with Jesus being the Lamb of God and the Messiah. Only a lamb could be sacrificed according to the Mosaic Law, and the Messiah, according to rabbinic tradition, was suppose to make all sacrifices cease save for one: the thanksgiving sacrifice. The Eucharist sacrifice - thanksgiving sacrifice - is the perpetuation of the thanksgiving sacrfice, instituted by Our Lord, Jesus Christ.
N
ncgolf
Guest
There is also the account of the disciples on the way to Emmaus in Luke 24. The disciples were walking with the risen Christ yet did could not see Him.
They only saw after Christ broke the bread and said the blessing and gave it to them v 30-31 … at this they recognized the Lord … it is important to notice that it was only after the bread was shared were the disciples eyes opened.
My question is what did the blessing entail … were they the same words used by Christ at the Last Supper and are those words meant to be the words of consecration?
They only saw after Christ broke the bread and said the blessing and gave it to them v 30-31 … at this they recognized the Lord … it is important to notice that it was only after the bread was shared were the disciples eyes opened.
My question is what did the blessing entail … were they the same words used by Christ at the Last Supper and are those words meant to be the words of consecration?
G
guanophore
Guest
Thank you, Eucharisted. I don’t think it is possible to properly understand Eucharist unless one understands the amanesis of the Passover. When Jesus used the terms “do this in memory of Me” He used the same term as is used in the OT to “offer the sacrifice”. This includes physically consuming the sacrifice.
Z
Zundrah
Guest
No, the breaking of bread was a term used in the passover at the third stage. It was a sign of their new covenant with God.
N
nuntym
Guest
To Zundrah: When you come to this thread, I would like you to read John 24:13-32, as ncgolf pointed out. I’ll post it for you:
[13]That very day two of them were going to a village named Emma’us, about seven miles from Jerusalem,
[14] and talking with each other about all these things that had happened.
[15] While they were talking and discussing together, Jesus himself drew near and went with them.
[16] But their eyes were kept from recognizing him.
[17] And he said to them, “What is this conversation which you are holding with each other as you walk?” And they stood still, looking sad.
[18] Then one of them, named Cle’opas, answered him, “Are you the only visitor to Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?”
[19] And he said to them, “What things?” And they said to him, “Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people,
[20] and how our chief priests and rulers delivered him up to be condemned to death, and crucified him.
[21] But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since this happened.
[22] Moreover, some women of our company amazed us. They were at the tomb early in the morning
[23] and did not find his body; and they came back saying that they had even seen a vision of angels, who said that he was alive.
[24] Some of those who were with us went to the tomb, and found it just as the women had said; but him they did not see.”
[25] And he said to them, “O foolish men, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!
[26] Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?”
[27] And beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
[28]So they drew near to the village to which they were going. He appeared to be going further,
[29] but they constrained him, saying, “Stay with us, for it is toward evening and the day is now far spent.” So he went in to stay with them.
[30] When he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them.
[31] And their eyes were opened and they recognized him; and he vanished out of their sight.
[32] They said to each other, “Did not our hearts burn within us while he talked to us on the road, while he opened to us the scriptures?”
I hope you noticed that Jesus’ interactions with the disciples are of two parts: 1) the Word of God was explained to the disciples regarding Jesus (Luke 24:17-27); 2) the blessing of the bread, on which Jesus was recognized by the disciples (Luke 24:30-31).
Don’t you see that it is of the same structure as the Holy Mass that you have participated in numerous times? There is the Liturgy of the Word, where the Word of God is proclaimed to the faithful. Then there is the Liturgy of the Eucharist, where the One Bread and One Cup is taken, blessed, and given for the people.
Compare what was said in Luke 22:19 and Luke 24:30
And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them…Luke 22:19
When he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them. Luke 24:30
EDIT: Oh, there you are!
[13]That very day two of them were going to a village named Emma’us, about seven miles from Jerusalem,
[14] and talking with each other about all these things that had happened.
[15] While they were talking and discussing together, Jesus himself drew near and went with them.
[16] But their eyes were kept from recognizing him.
[17] And he said to them, “What is this conversation which you are holding with each other as you walk?” And they stood still, looking sad.
[18] Then one of them, named Cle’opas, answered him, “Are you the only visitor to Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?”
[19] And he said to them, “What things?” And they said to him, “Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people,
[20] and how our chief priests and rulers delivered him up to be condemned to death, and crucified him.
[21] But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since this happened.
[22] Moreover, some women of our company amazed us. They were at the tomb early in the morning
[23] and did not find his body; and they came back saying that they had even seen a vision of angels, who said that he was alive.
[24] Some of those who were with us went to the tomb, and found it just as the women had said; but him they did not see.”
[25] And he said to them, “O foolish men, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!
[26] Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?”
[27] And beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
[28]So they drew near to the village to which they were going. He appeared to be going further,
[29] but they constrained him, saying, “Stay with us, for it is toward evening and the day is now far spent.” So he went in to stay with them.
[30] When he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them.
[31] And their eyes were opened and they recognized him; and he vanished out of their sight.
[32] They said to each other, “Did not our hearts burn within us while he talked to us on the road, while he opened to us the scriptures?”
I hope you noticed that Jesus’ interactions with the disciples are of two parts: 1) the Word of God was explained to the disciples regarding Jesus (Luke 24:17-27); 2) the blessing of the bread, on which Jesus was recognized by the disciples (Luke 24:30-31).
Don’t you see that it is of the same structure as the Holy Mass that you have participated in numerous times? There is the Liturgy of the Word, where the Word of God is proclaimed to the faithful. Then there is the Liturgy of the Eucharist, where the One Bread and One Cup is taken, blessed, and given for the people.
Compare what was said in Luke 22:19 and Luke 24:30
And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them…Luke 22:19
When he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them. Luke 24:30
EDIT: Oh, there you are!
G
guanophore
Guest
Most likely. Jesus used a standard Jewish blessing of the bread and wine which was used as a table blessing at the time.
Z
Zundrah
Guest
I see the act as a remembrance of Christ but not as an essencial sacrament.To Zundrah: When you come to this thread, I would like you to read John 24:13-32, as ncgolf pointed out. I’ll post it for you:
[13]That very day two of them were going to a village named Emma’us, about seven miles from Jerusalem,
[14] and talking with each other about all these things that had happened.
[15] While they were talking and discussing together, Jesus himself drew near and went with them.
[16] But their eyes were kept from recognizing him.
[17] And he said to them, “What is this conversation which you are holding with each other as you walk?” And they stood still, looking sad.
[18] Then one of them, named Cle’opas, answered him, “Are you the only visitor to Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?”
[19] And he said to them, “What things?” And they said to him, “Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people,
[20] and how our chief priests and rulers delivered him up to be condemned to death, and crucified him.
[21] But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since this happened.
[22] Moreover, some women of our company amazed us. They were at the tomb early in the morning
[23] and did not find his body; and they came back saying that they had even seen a vision of angels, who said that he was alive.
[24] Some of those who were with us went to the tomb, and found it just as the women had said; but him they did not see.”
[25] And he said to them, “O foolish men, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!
[26] Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?”
[27] And beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
[28]So they drew near to the village to which they were going. He appeared to be going further,
[29] but they constrained him, saying, “Stay with us, for it is toward evening and the day is now far spent.” So he went in to stay with them.
[30] When he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them.
[31] And their eyes were opened and they recognized him; and he vanished out of their sight.
[32] They said to each other, “Did not our hearts burn within us while he talked to us on the road, while he opened to us the scriptures?”
I hope you noticed that Jesus’ interactions with the disciples are of two parts: 1) the Word of God was explained to the disciples regarding Jesus (Luke 24:17-27); 2) the blessing of the bread, on which Jesus was recognized by the disciples (Luke 24:30-31).
Don’t you see that it is of the same structure as the Holy Mass that you have participated in numerous times? There is the Liturgy of the Word, where the Word of God is proclaimed to the faithful. Then there is the Liturgy of the Eucharist, where the One Bread and One Cup is taken, blessed, and given for the people.
Compare what was said in Luke 22:19 and Luke 24:30
And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them…Luke 22:19
When he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them. Luke 24:30
EDIT: Oh, there you are!
Z
Zundrah
Guest
Hello, my ‘little’ friend. 
G
guanophore
Guest
Yes, the breaking of the bread was the occasion used for the blessing of the bread, and the “blessing cup” - the third cup of the Passover. It was, indeed, a sign of teh Covenant with God.
The blessing of the bread was also used when Jews sat at table to break bread (eat together).
Z
Zundrah
Guest
Yes, because the section of the passover (that christ performed at that moment) when he broke the bread was the third part.
G
guanophore
Guest
Indeed, it is a rememberance. Why do you see it this way?
What do you mean by “essencial (sic) sacrament”?
Z
Zundrah
Guest
I mean this;
“No salvation out of the church”.
…becuase of the Eucharist…as an essential sacrament…
G
guanophore
Guest
Good for you Zundrah! And you used the relevant words, which are “Christ performed”…
Worship in Spirit and in Truth is worship as Christ performed it. The amanesis is a performance - a ritual - a “doing”.
This is one reason Catholics do not consider praise and sermons as True Worship. True Worship only occurs in Eucharist.
G
guanophore
Guest
hmmm…
What do you think “no salvation oustide the Church” means?
It is true that it is the Sacrifice of Christ on the cross, made present to us in the celebration of the Eucharist, is the means by which we are saved. No one is saved outside of this sacrifice, and it is it’s essence, remememberd in the Catholic Mass that enables people everywhere to come to salvation.
Z
Zundrah
Guest
Do you really mean that!?
- Status