Showing the JW's where their 'Bible' agrees with the Trinity

[AdoptedByGod]

Hi everyone!

Many blessings to you all.

I have just completed a rather interesting analysis of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ NWT, and found that there are still areas in the book that solidly show that Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is also God.

Also I have arranged these findings in a graphical form that I hope will aid clarity.

This could be a great resource for anyone debating with the Jehovah’s Witnesses. If you have any comments or suggestions, then I would love to hear from you.

The link is: www.adoptedbygod.com/article_trinity.html

To summarise the main points, the article points out that the JW’s book states the following:

1. Jesus is saying that He is the Alpha and Omega (Rev 22:13) and God saying that He is the Alpha and Omega (Rev 21:6)
2. Jesus is saying that His reward is with Him (Rev 22:12) and identifies His reward being Jehovah’s and with Jehovah (Isaiah 40:10).
3. Jesus is saying that He is the Beginning and the End (Rev 22:13) and God saying that He is the Beginning and the End (Rev:21:6)
4. Jesus is saying that He gives the Water of Life (John 4:14) and God saying that He gives the Water of Life (Rev 21:6).
5. Paul attributing the very words spoken by the voice of God (Isaiah 6:8 ) as being spoken by the Holy Spirit (Acts 28:25)

I this proves useful and, would love to read your assessment.

Much Love and God Bless,

Andrew

 

[BibleSteve]

For those who are interested in reading about Jehovah’s Witnesses view of the Trinity:

Should You Believe the Trinity?

 

[AdoptedByGod]

Thanks for the link BibleSteve,

One thing I forgot to mention is that the intent of the above material is to show that their official ‘view’ on the Trinity is even contradicted by their own NWT version of the Bible - thus showing that their philosophies are man-made and NOT God-made.

In Him,

Andrew

 

[BibleSteve]

Dear AdoptedbyGod,

Here’s another article for you if you’re so inclined to learn more about why Jehovah’s Witnesses believe as they do:

Is Jesus God?

I’m not going to jump into a debate about the Trinity with you. I’m simply going to provide you pointers to correct information about JW beliefs.

You can also do a search here in the forum using the words “Trinity” and “BibleSteve”.

Best Wishes on your Bible studies,

Steve

 

[SerenaHC]

So, BibleSteve,

You’ve been around here long enough to know the Catholic faith. When I read your posts, I think of the expression, “Me thinks he dost protest too much.”

When are you gonna come and join the one, true, holy, Catholic, and apostolic faith? We’ll welcome you with open arms and hearts.

SerenaHC

 

[ricko]

Good luck. I found a website somewhere that had about a two page list of the same things. You might try doing a search using some keywords such as “JW” “Trinity” and “Jesus”. That should pull it up. They probably will not accept that using comparisons. Some may. I did get one JW one day though. Using some web site that listed all the times the bible said Jesus was worshipped I found one that had the word worship in their bible. Sorry, I did not mark that verse but since you are young and full of steam you should look for it. That will stop them cold in their tracks!

 

[BibleSteve]

When are you gonna come and join the one, true, holy, Catholic, and apostolic faith? We’ll welcome you with open arms and hearts.
SerenaHC

I appreciate the sincerity of the invitation. However, when I read the Bible and look at what the Catholic Church teaches, I see huge differences.

 

[ricko]

Why don’t you start a new thread and list the differences that you see?

 

[BibleSteve]

Good luck. I found a website somewhere that had about a two page list of the same things. You might try doing a search using some keywords such as “JW” “Trinity” and “Jesus”. That should pull it up. They probably will not accept that using comparisons. Some may. I did get one JW one day though. Using some web site that listed all the times the bible said Jesus was worshipped I found one that had the word worship in their bible. Sorry, I did not mark that verse but since you are young and full of steam you should look for it. That will stop them cold in their tracks!

Rick,

I would encourage you to get past the desire to “get JW’s” or “stop them cold in their tracks”…

The Trinity discussion/argument has been going on for the better part of 2,000 years.

There are very sincere people on both sides of the argument who can’t understand why the other side can’t see the obviousness of their own position.

I have spent hundreds of dollars on proTrinity books and thousands of hours investigating every proTrinity “proof” and yet I simple do not believe the Trinity dogma. I’m not motivated to “get” a Trinitarian or “stop them in their tracks”… My motivation is to make sure I understand what the Bible teaches for myself and be in a position to politely converse with others who believe in the Trinity doctrine.

I would encourage you to spend a little time understanding the views and reasonings of non-Trinitarians. The links I provided at the top of this thread would be a good place to start.

 

[VWcrazy]

when I read the Bible and look at what the Catholic Church teaches, I see huge differences

If you honestly want to see huge differences between Scriptures and teachings, you should check out the Watchtower!! They even went and changed the wording of Scripture to fit their doctrine.

 

[BibleSteve]

If you honestly want to see huge differences between Scriptures and teachings, you should check out the Watchtower!! They even went and changed the wording of Scripture to fit their doctrine.

Dear VWcrazy,

If you’re interested in learning if this charge of yours is really correct, go to the libary or purchase:

Truth in Translation - Accuracy and Bias in the English Translations of the New Testament by Jason David BeDuhn.

The simplest of efforts on your part will show you are misinformed.

 

[VWcrazy]

BibleSteve,

I don’t know about you, but I am going to trust the Holy Spirit over Jason David BeDuhn.

Besides, no Christian Church uses the NWT. So that’s also a pretty good indication that the NWT is false translation.

 

[BibleSteve]

BibleSteve,

I don’t know about you, but I am going to trust the Holy Spirit over Jason David BeDuhn.

Besides, no Christian Church uses the NWT. So that’s also a pretty good indication that the NWT is false translation.

You’ve made a charge…

I’ve provided you a way to test yourself if you are true…

And you choose not to investigate.

 

[SerenaHC]

BibleSteve,

I agree that it is difficult to translate the Bible from the original languages into English. It can be difficult to translate and get the same sense of the words. Many English language Bibles leave a lot to be desired. However, most of them tell who worked on them so that you can verify the credentials of the translators. For instance, one of my professors was the chief editor of several OT books in the NIV. He’s a lovely man who is fluent in many languages and holds a PhD. Do you use the NWT? What are the credentials of the translators?

 

[VWcrazy]

You’ve made a charge…

I’ve provided you a way to test yourself if you are true…

And you choose not to investigate.

No need to “investigate” the lie. I already given you two reasons why the NWT is a false translation - which you apparently have “overlooked”.

BTW, still praying that God will deliver you from the Falsetower.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

For those who are interested in reading about Jehovah’s Witnesses view of the Trinity:

Should You Believe the Trinity?

Proverbs 18:17 (New International Version)

The first to present his case seems right,
till another comes forward and questions him.

These links document the misquotes in the booklet “should you beleive in the trinity”?

bible.ca/trinity/trinity-JW-SYBTT-Watchtower-BOOKLET-Should-You-Believe-the-Trinity-EXPOSED-REFUTED-pagan-section.htm

bible.ca/trinity/trinity-JW-SYBTT-Watchtower-BOOKLET-Should-You-Believe-the-Trinity-EXPOSED-REFUTED-bible-section.htm

bible.ca/trinity/trinity-jw-deceptions-top-ten-list-start.htm

A Biblical outline on the trinity
spotlightministries.org.uk/bowmanonthetrinity.htm

On other threads, many have posted what the church fathers have said about the deity of Christ and about the Trinity.

What scholars really think of NWT
forananswer.org/Top_JW/Scholars%20and%20NWT.htm

“In his various chapters, I found many other claims and arguments which could be contested in similar fashion to the examples above. Throughout his book, BeDuhn’s writing is a mixture of some helpful information combined with fallacious arguments and inadequate treatments of various texts. These are not easy to untangle, and especially so for the one who has not been trained in biblical studies and the original languages. In this reviewer’s opinion, the weaknesses of the monograph sufficiently outweigh the strengths so as to render the work essentially worthless for the purpose intended. There are much better texts available on the subject of biblical translation, and interested readers would find it more profitable to consult them instead.”

N.E. Barry Hofstetter

The Center for Urban Theological Studies

Philadelphia, PA

mysite.verizon.net/vze1yfx7/BDR.HTM

Watchtower’s spiriutalist connection
seanet.com/~raines/wtgreber.html

 

[BibleSteve]

BTW, still praying that God will deliver you from the Falsetower.

Perhaps some self-reflection is in order VWcrazy. Do you really think you would endear anyone towards you or your religious faith by trying to insult them, changing the name of their religious organization?

 

[BibleSteve]

Do you use the NWT? What are the credentials of the translators?

Dear Serena,

I would suggest that in spiritual and Bible related matters, asking for worldly credentials is unscriptural and downplays the value and power of the holy spirit.

Did Jesus choose men with worldly theological credentials to be his apostles? How were they qualified?

Saul/Paul had plenty of credentials but he viewed them as garbage/refuse. All those credentials lead him to persecute the church… Did Jesus choose him because of his credentials or something else?

What were David’s credentials as he went out to fight Goliath?

(1 Samuel 17:45) In turn David said to the Phi·lis′tine: “You are coming to me with a sword and with a spear and with a javelin, but I am coming to you with the name of Jehovah of armies, the God of the battle lines of Israel, whom you have taunted.

Yes, I use the NWT and 50+ other translations. I have never concerned myself with the credentials of the translators of any of these 50+ translations.

I lay them out side by side to compare them with various other reference works.

 

[NanaR]

Rick,

I would encourage you to get past the desire to “get JW’s” or “stop them cold in their tracks”…

The Trinity discussion/argument has been going on for the better part of 2,000 years.

There are very sincere people on both sides of the argument who can’t understand why the other side can’t see the obviousness of their own position.

I have spent hundreds of dollars on proTrinity books and thousands of hours investigating every proTrinity “proof” and yet I simple do not believe the Trinity dogma. I’m not motivated to “get” a Trinitarian or “stop them in their tracks”… My motivation is to make sure I understand what the Bible teaches for myself and be in a position to politely converse with others who believe in the Trinity doctrine.

I would encourage you to spend a little time understanding the views and reasonings of non-Trinitarians. The links I provided at the top of this thread would be a good place to start.

Bible Steve:

I continue to pray that God grant you the grace of faith.

Pax,

Ruth

 

[SerenaHC]

Dear Serena,

I would suggest that in spiritual and Bible related matters, asking for worldly credentials is unscriptural and downplays the value and power of the holy spirit.

Steve, this seems somewhat naive. Actually translating from one language to another requires a competent command of all of the languages involved. God gave us an intellect and expects us to use it. This isn’t unscriptural, given how well educated the Jewish priests and leaders were expected to be. God may encourage us to have the trusting faith of a child but he expects us to move on from “childish things” to “mature things” and from “milk” to “meat.”

Not everyone who “translates” a bible has the purest of motives. Some do so with a particular political agenda, such as the translators of the Living Bible. I’m not a fan of the NIV because of the political agenda of its translators. It’s naive to assume people’s prejudices can’t impact their translation. That’s why I think it’s important to be able to verify the credentials of the translators, because if they are scholars in the field, they have a reputation to maintain and are somewhat restrained from inserting their own theology into the pages of the bible.

Personally, I prefer the RSV with Apocrypha and RSV-Catholic editions.

So, what are the credential of the translators of the NWT and, if you don’t know, where are they listed?