Shroud of Turin: fake once again?

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I guess you need to understand Jesus was wrapped in a shroud after death when laying on His tomb slab
 
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I am no physicist, but it makes sense to imply that blood would follow a certain path depending on the position of the limbs and body. I can’t, for instance, defy gravity. That is all. How is that a problem to say so?
I Hope they took into account, while doint their research, that the shroud created a double image. You never know with some people. They might say this stain shouldn’t be there, it is only the “negative” so to speak, of a stain which is perfectly placed. Also, a dead body might move due to some instability after it was placed in the tomb.

I surely know Jesus was wrapped in a shroud. Why do you think you have to state this?
I wonder why you seem to try to find a mistake in my reasoning, when all I am saying is: their research isn’t completely stupid to begin with.

No historical documents on the two BIshops? What I have found is a bit different than what reported in the articles I have read.
 
http://www.factsplusfacts.com/resources/Darcis.htm

I have found this

[…]Pierre [D’Arcis] did not have first hand knowledge of this artist; the artist is unnamed. There is no evidence of such an inquest in contemporaneous documents. Pierre stated that Henri had the Shroud removed from the church because it was a fake, yet other documents dispute this.[…]

I wish I could read these “contemporaneous documents”.

So you see why I am confused. But me being confused on some arguments made in the articles doesn’t mean that I think, I want, nor I am trying to convince you the Shroud is fake.
Even if I were trying to, I find odd that the same people that say it has little to no meaning concerning the Faith (and it is true, I repeat that I know and believe that)) then cast doubt on anything I am trying to question (again, not the faith).

I may well be that the researchers who conducted this do not believe, but how does their lack of faith totally invalidate their results? I simply want to see: 1) are the results plausible, even only using common sense (as I said, gravity)? 2) their argument that some Bishops were aware of the supposed forgery.
 
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MarcoPG said:
Moreover, I would be very interested if anyone has any information on Bishops Pierre D’Arcis and Henri of Poitiers, who (respectively?) discovered the forgery before the year 1400 and forbade its veneration after the artist’s confession.
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I don’t have any information on these bishops, however I recall reading that many copies of the shroud were made and they were passed off as being the genuine “Shroud.” The Church was against the veneration of these false shrouds, but they still believed in the veracity of the original Shroud of Turin.
 
Marco, ok , let’s forget the physics discussion. But we can talk flow.

Here is my question to you, when a fluid is flowing horizontally, how is there an issue with gravity.

However, And this blows your and the article authors hypothesis out of the water…Blood does not flow from a dead body. That’s just basic science. Any blood on the shroud was already there from wounds inflicted when the person wrapped in the shroud was alive.
 
Their “study” ignores the fact that no one knows the exact positions Jesus’ body would have been in while walking to Calvary, what could have interfered with the blood flow (sweat, dust, contact with persons or objects), the position he was nailed in (was he nailed while on his back, etc), was the cross then flipped over (as in the passion movie - it’s possible), was the cross truly at a 90 degree angle or was it wobly or at another angle, the fact that he would have moved around his body while on the cross, the fact that his head and chest would have slumped forward to the ground (this is what usually caused death - suffocation), the positions his body was in while taken down, the positions his body was in while carried to for burial, and during burial prep, and the fact that his body was prepared using Jewish costume. A face cloth would have been used to soak up all the fluids from the face (Sudarium of Oviedo). And let’s not forget that the Sudarium of Oviedo‘s blood stains match the shroud, and they are both AB blood - with it being dated using the c14 to around 700ad. C14 dating is unreliable (ask any lab today) for cloths especially if they were touched by humans or contaminated. And finally, did this “study” actually work with the shroud? The answer is no.
 
Gravity plays a role in every position, doesn’t it? The blood couldn’t go up from an open wound.

A corpse would bleed indeed if wrapped in the shroud shortly (two hours or so max.) after death. It wouldn’t if Jesus had no open wound, but he had plenty. That is why I find it funny not to consider any wound resulting from the scourging.

MY theory?
 
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  1. Please google what happens when the heart stops pumping blood.
  2. Get a fluid, find a level surface, spill the fluid on the surface and watch what happens.
I don’t understand what you mean when you say.
MarcoPG said:
The blood couldn’t go up from an open wound.
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I’m not sure these people haven’t inadvertently confirmed the Shroud’s authenticity, and more.

They’re saying blood flow direction indicates that some of the flow had to be from a standing person, not one lying down. When Jesus came back to life, would He not have stood up? And if His wounds were not, at that moment, miraculously closed, would His blood not have flowed in His veins and arteries and escaped His body through His wounds when His blood freshened with life?
 
These are a few of the articles about the Shroud from the Magis Center website (Father Robert Spitzer from EWTN). These are actual, detailed, scientific studies conducted since, if I remember correctly, the first one that was done in 1978. If you want to see authentic studies, here they are. The last one I’m posting is a presentation offered by Fr. Spitzer. They are all well worth reading and/or watching. The one that was posted above is a “study” done by supposed “experts” that never even saw, or touched, the actual Shroud.




 
  1. Sure, but you don’t need any pressure for some blood to come out from a wound.
  2. Do you mean it wouldn’t flow? Ok, but so what? As it is written in a previous post, no one knows what position Jesus was placed in.
  3. I mean that because of gravity, blood can’t flow upwards. Seems obvious, but it is an example of the role gravity has in blood flow.
    I point that out simply because the researchers said the position of some of the stains are funnily placed.
Do you think I try to defend the research ? I want to see if there is any interest in it, not say I know it is true at any cost.
 
What I find interesting is that the material of the cloth is not photographic material. Yet, it acted as if it is.

So, what caused the image to form on a material that is not photographic material?

Well, if it’s not a hoax, it must be a miracle.
 
I see what you mean, but any print can impress an image.
Saint Charbel Makhlouf was buried with a shroud and at one his many exhumations, it was found his face had been printed so to speak on it. But no resurrection in this case. This is why I don’t think what you write, albeit interesting, doesn’t help much on the subject of the supposedly fake blood.
 
There just needs to be another carbon dating test. I don’t get why another one hasn’t been done yet. The whole controversy started when the test said it was only a few hundred years old — but then immediately people noticed they took a sample from a very bad area, an area that had been re-stitched after a fire.

They just need to test it again!

Until then, look into Fr. Robert Spitzer’s research:


Also:


 
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No one - not me nor the research - said all the blood was fake. They write that because of its position, it may be painted.
Keep in mind that they didn’t have the shroud to work on. They simply concluded the blood couldn’t be real because the stains seem to come from the wounds on a person standing, which is odd
 
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MarcoPG said:
They simply concluded the blood couldn’t be real because the stains seem to come from the wounds on a person standing, which is odd
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Most of the blood stains on the shroud (that the real scientists who actually tested the real shroud confirmed as being type AB blood) were directly transferred to the cloth from the body as it was wrapped, and not afterward. The reason for them to “appear to be” from a person that was in a standing position is because they happened during the entire Passion, as well as when Jesus was hanging in an upright position on the cross! It doesn’t take any kind of so-called “expert” to figure that out (btw… an “ex” is just a “has been” and a “spurt” is just “a drip under pressure” 😉 ).

Joseph of Arimathea and the others who prepared the body for burial, didn’t have time to go through the entire ritualistic process of washing the body before wrapping it. It was already getting very late in the day, so they had to hurry up and finish what they were doing, before the sun set on the Sabbath. So, it should come as no surprise that the blood stains would have occurred while the man was in an upright position.
 
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