Shroud of Turin

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A lot of good posts, and a lot of good information. It seems that we agree that belief in the Christ, does not hinge on belief that the shroud is the authentic burial cloth of Our Lord. On that basis does establishing the authenticity make a difference, and if so what is it? Can we ever prove that it is genuine? I am not sure we can. Can we ever prove that it is forgery? No, because there is sufficient evidence to indicate that the shroud is a burial cloth and that dates to the first century.

An excellent series of articles on the work done on the Shroud was published by catholicexchange.com. In them the author, Fr. William Saunders presents most of the information that I have seen here, and some that I have not. One of the most facinating referances is to Dr. Gilbert Lavoie book Unlocking the Secrets of the Shroud .

He states that
" The negative image of the shroud as compared with the negative images of photography reveals that the man in question had either white or light blond hair. He noted another peculiarity: the shadows of the face and the fall of the hair indicate that the man was upright and suspended when the image was made, while the blood marks indicate the man was in the supine position on top of the cloth with the rest folded over him. Dr. Lavoie concluded that this upright image was made after the blood had stained the cloth: “This finding is intellectually exciting to anyone who contemplates the possibility that this image reflects the moment of the resurrection” (p. 182). "

So what is the value of all this effort, another relic? I don’t think so. I think the value is in the process. A hundred or so years ago, all these things were accepted on faith, and then along came the men of science with the knowlege, the tools, and the will to set that flat earth people straight. We are still in a period when many people fear science, and see it as a threat to their faith. Science is the persuit of truth. Even the scientist who is trying to debunk a theory, so long as he applies his craft well, must be encouraged to study and investigate. When all the facts are in the truth is revealed. They have been at it for a few decades, and the more sophisticated their tools get the deeper they get. What started as a mystery to be solved is slowly turning into a Mystery to be Contemplated. It seems that science has no definitive answers just more amazing data.

We all know that, “For those who believe, no explanation is necessary; for those who do not, no explanation is possible.”

The Shroud does not strengthen my Faith in the Ressurection, but my Faith in the Ressurection does strengthen my belief that the Shroud of Turin is the burial cloth of Christ.

Charliemac

Links to the four part article.
catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=6&art_id=22714

catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=6&art_id=22788

catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=6&art_id=22890

catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=6&art_id=22992
 
a walk through a museum with a good collection of medieval religious art leaves me convinced the shroud is a product of human hands, made earlier than 1400, in the time bridging the Romanesque and early Gothic periods. As for making a negative image, try the technique of gravestone rubbing at your local cemetery, and see what you get. forging relics was one of the booming industries in the middle ages, and this is one of its most successful products. perhaps it was made my an artist inspired as some iconagraphers are inspired, if it helps you focus and direct your prayer as a good icon should. then by all means use the image for that purpose, but don’t worship it, and don’t become so fascinated with this artifact, or any icon, that you ignore your prayer life and other spiritual duties. At least it is a more inspiring image than the insipid efeminate image often used to promote the Divine Mercy devotion, or popular Anglo-saxon images of Christ produced by the Victorians.
 
Yes, I am familiar with rubbing techniques, but how do you get an even image? Also, in the 6th cent. the Shroud was boiled in oil, so if it was a painting, the paint would have flaked off, certainly by now.

Where did they get the pollen? I guess some one took the shroud,(they must have had a hard time, in the 14th cent. to find a 1-st -3rd cent. piece of cloth), and taken it to Palestine and Turkey. Then, they would have to get a hold of 1st century coins minted in 1st. cent. Israel, and place them on the eyes of the model, then, have a Jewish male (he wears a long pig-tail, meaning he is unmarried), and have him pose for the “painting”. Very clever!.

But as I asked in my previous post, if the Shroud is a forgery (14th cent.), explain how the paintings and mosaics of Christ from the 4th cent. are modeled on the shroud. How did they arrive at these classic parts if it wasn’t invented yet? The parting of the hair, the fold of the cloth at the neck, the big eyes, etc. There are something like 36 points that paralell. Police only need 6 points to make an arrest of someone.
 
Well Done!!! Mike C.

I cannot believe that any rational person, after doing a bit of research would fall for the - its painted on whooie -
 
C-14 dating and scientific analysis aside, It can
be seen quite clearly that the image is not one of an
anatomically correct human being. As illustrated from
the following link -

gaydeceiver.com/religion/turin/

the eyeline on the face is too high. This is a common error
made by artists and sculptors. An amazing optical illusion
which fools many and brings the whole case for the shrouds
authenticity undone.

Please do not let the links name prejudice you. It has a
valid point.

And in answering your question Susanne, I am a Catholic
albeit a skeptical one. I adhere to CCC 159 which explains
that faith can never be in contrast to reason or valid scientific evidence. I do not need the shroud or any other alleged miracles
such as apparitions and bleeding statues to have a faith.

Folks, the case for the shroud is closed for me. It is a fake, get over it and grow through it.
 
Having read through all of the preceeding posts, I noticed that all the replies are based on either science or opinion.

I remember reading about St. Helen in her quest for the “true cross”. She found three. To determine which was the authentic cross of Jesus, she did a test. A person with some illness was asked to touch each of the crosses. When the true cross was touched, the person was immediately healed.

I propose that the same test be given to the shroud. If indeed it’s a painting or made by human hands, there would be no healing quality. If it is the authentic burial cloth of Christ then it would have the same “healing” qualities of any other relic.
 
Actually “thincritter” it not a fake - you need to grow in your faith. No one has said this is a needed article of faith!!! Why do so many people spend so much time trying to dis-prove things. Also I noticed that you are from Australia…that explains a lot.
clearly you have not read alll the provided links that demonstrate tha that the shroud is read. I clicked on your like - because I am OPENED MINDED (not like some) it does not work.And as far as being Catholic…you’re either in or out…- no in between
that is why there have been several hundred man-made religions started in the last few hundred years…too many people wanted their own thing…
 
Recent studies have shown the C14 dating to be in error because the testing was done on a contaminated piece.

More important is when the back layer was taken off the weaving was shown to be unique to the early first century.
 
AUTHENTIC. How else could you explain that magnificant face???

Shannin
 
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Hannibal:
Hi.

Actually, the researchers state the exact opposite.There is no concern about what you have related - i.e. about pieces handled by others. This would be inconsequential

The concern was whether the researches might attempt to date areas of the cloth that were repairs - re-threadings. The researchers independently tested 3 pieces of the cloth from areas that were not recent 'repairs" and found that they date to the time the shroud was ‘discovered’ - around the 14th century.

The shroud has numerous provenance problems as well. These two facts invalidate the shroud as being a shroud used by "jesus’
Click to expand...
these test you mention do they take into acount the fire damage that it had while on display in in a church. can you get accurate readings???
 
**Even as many were amazed at him - so marred was his look beyond that of man, and his appearance beyond that of mortals **
Isaiaha 52:14

Isaiaha says that Jesus was beaten beyond recognition.
According to this passage Jesus would have looked like a mob beating victim or a lynching victim. The man in the Shroud is still recognizeable.

I would like to believe but I can’t.
 
An opinion on the authenticity of the Shroud can be based on scientific evidence, reports of which are extensive and contradictory. Or one can judge based on observation, but most of us will never have the chance, and in any case the image on the actual shroud, according to testimony, is much less visible than the photo negative image, which has been widely published. Published photographic images can easily be manipulated and altered. Or one can judge on criteria of art and art history, judging this image by comparing it to others of the same period, place, origin, the image itself, its composition, the medium, the base, etc. Here again the published reports are contradictory and subjective. Or one can judge on the basis of faith, but our faith is in the person of Jesus Christ, not in any artifact, however closely it may be tied to Him, whether the true cross, the shroud, the grail, the nails, or anything else. People who accept all or none of the evidence presented from any of these sources to make an opinion are still making opinion, not pronouncement of fact or still less of dogma. I am certainly stupid and ill-informed on many topics, and my own opinion may be more or less valid than yours, but we are still guessing.
 
The Shroud of Turin is just one of the many miracles of God’s saving Grace that helped my conversion… there are so many others …Lourdes…Fatima…The raising of Lazarus from the dead…etc. I am convinced the Shroud of Turin is authentic, in spite of what Anti-christ’s army says.
 
In my area in the last year I could have seen the face of Jesus on an old corvette in someone’s garage, and image of the cross projected from the window of a business building glowing 9 feet in the air every night at midnight, any number of weeping and bleeding statues, and at least once a week, the face of Mary or Jesus on a tortilla. People drive hundreds of miles and wait in line for hours to see these things. Some are sightseers, some are seekers, some devoutly pray the rosary while they wait. But if I don’t trek out to venerate these images that does not make me part of the anti-Christ army. It just makes me a skeptic regarding all things that are not part of Divine Revelation and are not passed on through the Magesterium as Church Doctrine.

Someone said Helena had a fool-proof test for supposed relics of the True Cross, they had to demonstrate healing power. Well, belief in the Shroud should be subjected to a similar test. If your beliefe in the Shroud makes you accept uncritically any reports about it that don’t agree with your opinion, attack the credibility of the reporters and attack their character, if it makes you uncharitably inclined toward persons from Australia, if it makes you bristle with vituperation toward anyone who disagrees with you, its veneration is NOT producing within you fruits of Jesus Christ. I can honor, venerate and adore His true face any time I like in any of several chapels in my area dedicated to Perpetual Adoration. I don’t need a corvette, a tortilla, or a relic.

I repeat, do not place your faith in things made by man. They will decay and fall away. Read this Sunday’s gospel. Place your faith in the person of Jesus Christ. Venerate and use to advantage anything that helps you contemplate and imitate Him, but do not put anything in His place.
 
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larryo:
If what you assert is true, then why has no one been able to exactly reproduce the figure on the shroud? Also, what causes the 3-D effect of the shroud’s image as determined by Physicist John Jackson?
Click to expand...
Actually someone has. I watched a show on the shroud on the History Channel about two days ago. A lady took a piece of cloth and dabbed it with an iron oxide powder to create the face. It looked very close to that of the shroud. She then took a separate piece of cloth and pushed it on he work of art to create a copy.

Because the copy was patted on the original the color only went one fiber deep, just as on the shroud. Also they put it under the same 3D imaging system used by John Jackson. Guess what… it had a very good 3-D image on it of Jesus.
 
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Shibboleth:
Actually someone has. I watched a show on the shroud on the History Channel about two days ago. A lady took a piece of cloth and dabbed it with an iron oxide powder to create the face. It looked very close to that of the shroud. She then took a separate piece of cloth and pushed it on he work of art to create a copy.

Because the copy was patted on the original the color only went one fiber deep, just as on the shroud. Also they put it under the same 3D imaging system used by John Jackson. Guess what… it had a very good 3-D image on it of Jesus.
Click to expand...
This of course does not disprove that it is a miracle; I am just adding what I know.

The Pharaoh’s magicians were able to turn sticks to snakes but that did not mean that Moses’ miracle was not real.
 
Recently the backer cloth was removed and there is an image on the back also.
 
To those who believe, no explanation is necessary… to those who do not believe, no explanation will suffice.
 
Excellent program on Catholic Answers yesterday…The other Shroud of Christ. (July 30).
If you missed it, go to the archives and lisen to it.
Has to be one of my new favorite programs.

go with God!
Edwin
 
The Shroud is the real deal. Blood samples taken from the Shroud match the blood type (And it’s a very rare blood type too) of the bleeding hosts that are considered Eucharistic miracles in the Catholic Church.

Keep the faith. The Shroud is not a hoax.

PS: I know two priests personally here in the U.S. who have found a bleeding consecrated host in the ciborium after opening the tabernacle.

The term ‘protestant’ means ‘to protest.’ Who was the first protester? It was Lucifer, and we all know what happened to him. Right?
 
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