Sickening Attack!

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FightingFat:
Does it not concern you at all that it is exactly that attitude that adds to a culture of violence? That saying it is ok to be violent- ie shoot someone, is ok as long as you can justify it?

Is that not just creating more violence? I carry a gun because they carry a gun? If they shoot me, I shoot them?
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What contributes to a culture of violence is preventing law abiding citizens from protecting themselves.

Please respond to this question: Using the United States as an example, why do states that permit law abiding citizens to carry concealed weapons have LOWER crime rates than than those that do not? Why are cities that have the most restrictive gun laws more dangerous places to live than those that don’t?

Weakness invites aggression.

Peace,
 
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Shoshana:
I would respectfully disagree with you. The US has guns coming out of their their keysters and now they are allowing (in florida I think) that ANYONE can kill anyone if they feel threatened…no second guessing here I tell you. This opens an even bigger can of worms.

Actually, in every state (and there are 38 of them so far) that has implemented liberalized concealed carry laws (where any person who passes a background check can get a license to carry concealed) violent crime has gone DOWN.
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Shoshana:
It is illegal to carry a gun here in Canada…and i cannot say our crime rate is any higher than yours. Quite the contrary actually…

When you match demographics, that isn’t true. Violence in the US is concentrated among minorities that are relatively rare in Canada. When you compare like-with-like, you find Caucasian Canadians are slightly more likely to be violent than Caucasian citizens of the United States.
 
vern humphrey:
Actually, in every state (and there are 38 of them so far) that has implemented liberalized concealed carry laws (where any person who passes a background check can get a license to carry concealed) violent crime has gone DOWN.
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When you match demographics, that isn’t true. Violence in the US is concentrated among minorities that are relatively rare in Canada. When you compare like-with-like, you find Caucasian Canadians are slightly more likely to be violent than Caucasian citizens of the United States.

Well put. As I always say, “facts are our friends”.

It seems to me that those who are against self-defense (i.e. the ability for law abiding citizens to carry guns to keep from becoming victims) base their arguments on “feelings” and not facts.
 
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FightingFat:
Does it not concern you at all that it is exactly that attitude that adds to a culture of violence?
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No. The proven facts are that when people are able to defend themselves, the result is LESS violence.
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FightingFat:
That saying it is ok to be violent- ie shoot someone, is ok as long as you can justify it?
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What part of “justify” don’t you understand?

Would you say a surgeon should be prohibited from performing amputations if justified? Or that society should be prohibited from imprisoning criminals when justified?

Do you not understand that the use of deadly force in self-defense is justified only by the greatest extreme – an immediate threat to life or grevious bodily harm?
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FightingFat:
Is that not just creating more violence? I carry a gun because they carry a gun? If they shoot me, I shoot them?
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You’re simply dead wrong. Only in your imagination does this “create more violence.” In all 38 states that have enacted “shall-issue” laws, there is LESS violence.
 
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Scott_Lafrance:
Satan
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Yup: I am sure father Malachi Martin the world known exorcist and Fr. Gabrielle Amorth, the Vatican’s official exorcist would agree: either a demonic possessed person, or, a psycho.:banghead:
 
I did a bit of research on guns vs crimes, and it is true that the crime rate is lower because people owns guns. Although these surveys were done by Americans, nonetheless, I cannot in good conscience continue this argument…

Soooooooo…pardonnez-moi…😃

Christ is risen…truly He is risen!
Shoshana
 
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Shoshana:
I did a bit of research on guns vs crimes, and it is true that the crime rate is lower because people owns guns. Although these surveys were done by Americans, nonetheless, I cannot in good conscience continue this argument…

Soooooooo…pardonnez-moi…😃

Christ is risen…truly He is risen!
Shoshana
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Shoshana,
While I understand that facts may run counter to your “feelings” and your view of the how the world should be (not how it really is), I don’t understand the “ostrich” approach to a real issue. Simply avoiding the subject (gun laws in this case0, does not make the the problem of violence go away.
 
chillingly similar attack

newswatch.co.uk/headlines.asp?ref=QO2712057I
Another mum and toddler mugged at knifepoint - 28/04/2005 09:16:00 09:16
A terrified mum and her three-year-old son were threatened by two knife-wielding thugs before being robbed in an incident chillingly similar to the attack on Abigail Witchalls exactly a week earlier.

The muggers - one white, one black - pounced in broad daylight at around 1pm on Wednesday lunchtime as the woman stood with her young boy in a playground area in Tildesley Road, Putney, south west London.
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The most recent year for which I could find figures was the 2001 http://www.libr.port.ac.uk/images/roads/info.gif ** International comparisons of criminal justice statistics

which shows

Since the definition of homicide is similar in
most countries, absolute comparisons of
rates are possible. For the period 1999 to
2001, the average rate (the number of
homicides per 100,000 population) was 1.6 in
the EU with the highest rates in Finland (2.9),
Northern Ireland (2.7) and Scotland (2.2). For
the other countries, the highest rates were
found in Russia (22.1), Estonia (10.6),
Lithuania (10.6) and the USA (5.6).

In the EU capital cities, the average number
of homicides over the period 1999 to 2001
was 2.3 per 100,000 population with the
highest rates in Belfast (5.6), Amsterdam
(3.1), Vienna (2.8), Stockholm (2.8) and
London (2.6) and Berlin (2.3). There were
higher rates in some American cities:
Washington DC (42.9), New York NY (8.7)
and San Francisco CA (8.1).

**
 
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FightingFat:
I am shocked, amazed and angry at this attack. What can possibly motivate such attrocity?
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I think you need more gun control.
 
Can you see the correlation between this sickening attack and as to what judicame posted as Sick New Craze Sweeping Brittain?
 
I put on the other thread that I was targeted by a drug dealer while I was living in London because I was using a phone that he needed for business and he felt I was taking too long. (I found out later from others that certain public phones are used for drug activity.) Luckily, I was unhurt. I think I read somehwhere that the man who attacked Abigail was speeding around in the area before he attacked her and was probably on drugs. She could have done nothing more than simply told him to slow down to protect her child which set him off. I’m praying that the paralysis is not permanent and that her unborn child has not been harmed in some way. The man who did this is sick beyond description.
 
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Eden:
I put on the other thread that I was targeted by a drug dealer while I was living in London because I was using a phone that he needed for business and he felt I was taking too long. (I found out later from others that certain public phones are used for drug activity.) Luckily, I was unhurt. I think I read somehwhere that the man who attacked Abigail was speeding around in the area before he attacked her and was probably on drugs. She could have done nothing more than simply told him to slow down to protect her child which set him off. I’m praying that the paralysis is not permanent and that her unborn child has not been harmed in some way. The man who did this is sick beyond description.
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The British have it all wrong. Self-defense – especially when the state so dismally fails to protect people is not only a right, it’s a civic duty. I’m glad MY country recognizes that.
 
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Matt25:
The most recent year for which I could find figures was the 2001 http://www.libr.port.ac.uk/images/roads/info.gif ** International comparisons of criminal justice statistics**

which shows

Since the definition of homicide is similar in
most countries, absolute comparisons of
rates are possible. For the period 1999 to
2001, the average rate (the number of
homicides per 100,000 population) was 1.6 in
the EU with the highest rates in Finland (2.9),
Northern Ireland (2.7) and Scotland (2.2). For
the other countries, the highest rates were
found in Russia (22.1), Estonia (10.6),
Lithuania (10.6) and the USA (5.6).

In the EU capital cities, the average number
of homicides over the period 1999 to 2001
was 2.3 per 100,000 population with the
highest rates in Belfast (5.6), Amsterdam
(3.1), Vienna (2.8), Stockholm (2.8) and
London (2.6) and Berlin (2.3). There were
higher rates in some American cities:
Washington DC (42.9), New York NY (8.7)
and San Francisco CA (8.1).
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What conclusions are you drawing from the statistics? While you can say that we have some dangerous cities here in the US (with very restrictive gun laws), I’m not sure what other conclusions can be made. I don’t think you can make an apples to apples comparison between EU countries and US countries, because there are different variables in play. You can say that EU cities have lower homicide rates…I don’t think you can say its due to the gun laws.
 
Two points here:
  1. Gun control laws apply to the law-abiding majority. The criminal minority won’t abide by gun-control laws no matter what they are. This is why having conceal-carry laws and the like do NOT result in an epidemic of “Wild-West” shootouts.
  2. One cannot underestimate the influence of culture on the homicide rates of various countries. Switzerland has very high rates of gun ownership and very low rates of violent crime. The U.S. has high rates of gun ownership and a relatively high level of violent crime. But that crime rate is not evenly distributed geographically or ethnically. At the risk of being considered impolitic, the violent crime in this country is overwhelmingly concentrated among racial minorities in the urban ghettoes. These are locales that overwhelmingly have strict gun-control laws, but high crime rates anyway.
For some further thoughts on the influence of culture on behavior, see this column by Thomas Sowell:
opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110006608

For a look into why this behavior pattern perpetuates itself see here:
city-journal.org/html/15_2_holding.html

For a UK-centric view of things from a British doctor who worked in slums and prisons of England, see here:
city-journal.org/html/14_4_oh_to_be.html

For better or worse, the UK’s societal behavior is getting coarser. There is an old adage that states that (paraphrased badly) a virtuous society does not need much governing, whereas an unvirtuous society has a proliferation of laws. In other words, we control ourselves, or the government will control us. I think we will see this trend only increase across all of the West as we forget our Christian roots.
 
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shockerfan:
What conclusions are you drawing from the statistics? While you can say that we have some dangerous cities here in the US (with very restrictive gun laws), I’m not sure what other conclusions can be made. I don’t think you can make an apples to apples comparison between EU countries and US countries, because there are different variables in play. You can say that EU cities have lower homicide rates…I don’t think you can say its due to the gun laws.
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Actually, the definition of “homicide” is NOT similar. In the US, we define homicide by the manner of death. In many European countries, they define it as “murder” and count only deaths where someone was convicted of murder – which yeilds a much lower rate.

In Japan, murder-suicides are classed as “suicide.” Which means that if a man kills his wife, three children and himself, that counts as five “suicides” and no “homicides.”
 
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