Side by Side- TLM 1962 and NO 1973

[AJV]

Ok, how about this link with the same information (and same typos ) but on a more “legit” site?

latin-mass-society.org/missals.htm

 

[BobP123]

No, it’s not (a fair comparison.) It’s a comparison two translations, one or both of which may be lousy. If you truly want a comparison, look at the Latin of each rite side-by-side. Much more edifying.

Not just from your reply but I’m sort of getting a mixed message here. Are we trying to push vernacular into the TLM, trying to find a common denominator between the two Rites, or just further showing up the NO?

By the way, I used the word “fair,” not “good” or “excellent.” You’re right, of course, that a true comparison would have involved comparing the Latin. (And perhaps all the options involved.) But Pope Paul did use the word “novus” which means, in our context, “different.”

 

[peregrinator_it]

Considering probably 90%+ of NO masses are in the vernacular anyway, it is informative to look at the vernacular itself.

Thanks to the ICEL, I’m not sure it is all that useful to look at the vernacular. For what I mean, see the bottom of this post.

BobP123:

Are we trying to push vernacular into the TLM, trying to find a common denominator between the two Rites, or just further showing up the NO?

Can’t speak for anyone else, of course, but I’m not trying to do the first or the last. I don’t think there’s anything in the “N.O.” to be shown up- nor do I object to Latin, nor to the TLM.
I’m not sure what you mean by “common denominator.”

I think an intellectually honest discussion of the differences in the two rites could be valuable- it’s just that these discussions tend to devolve rather quickly into discussions of the language in the prayers of each rite, and it’s self-defeating to attempt that using the ICEL translation of the Pauline Mass, because it is so bad as to be sometimes misleading.

For example, the first phrase of the Confiteor (not the best example, but a prayer I have memorized, so I’m using it)

Words that have changed are in red/blue.

TLM: Confiteor Deo omnipotenti, beatae Mariae semper Virgini, beato Michaeli Archangelo, beati Ioanne Baptistae, Sanctis Apostolis Petro et Paulo, omnibus Sanctis, et tibi Pater, quia peccavi nimis cogitatione, verbo et opere: mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

(Translation: I confess to almighty God, to blessed Mary ever virgin, to blessed Michael the archangel, to blessed John the Baptist, to the holy apostles Peter and Paul, to all the saints, and to you, Father, that I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word and deed: (The priest strikes his breast three times saying-) through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault. )

Pauline: Confiteor Deo omnipotenti et vobis, fratres, quia peccavi nimis cogitatione, verbo, opere et omissione: mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

(Translation: I confess to almighty God, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault (all strike their breast) in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do)

I don’t know what has become of the “mea culpa’s” (which is the difference people tend to notice) or “nimis” in the translation of the Pauline Mass.

A translation of the Pauline prayer that parallels the one given for the TLM might go: “I confess to almighty God and to you, my brethren, that I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word, deed and omission: through my fault, through my fault, through my most grevious fault…”

 

[lak611]

For example, the first phrase of the Confiteor (not the best example, but a prayer I have memorized, so I’m using it)

Words that have changed are in red/blue.

TLM: Confiteor Deo omnipotenti, beatae Mariae semper Virgini, beato Michaeli Archangelo, beati Ioanne Baptistae, Sanctis Apostolis Petro et Paulo, omnibus Sanctis, et tibi Pater, quia peccavi nimis cogitatione, verbo et opere: mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

(Translation: I confess to almighty God, to blessed Mary ever virgin, to blessed Michael the archangel, to blessed John the Baptist, to the holy apostles Peter and Paul, to all the saints, and to you, Father, that I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word and deed: (The priest strikes his breast three times saying-) through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault. )

Pauline: Confiteor Deo omnipotenti et vobis, fratres, quia peccavi nimis cogitatione, verbo, opere et omissione: mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

(Translation: I confess to almighty God, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault (all strike their breast) in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do)

I don’t know what has become of the “mea culpa’s” (which is the difference people tend to notice) or “nimis” in the translation of the Pauline Mass.

A translation of the Pauline prayer that parallels the one given for the TLM might go: “I confess to almighty God and to you, my brethren, that I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word, deed and omission: through my fault, through my fault, through my most grevious fault…”

This is going to be changed. This article says:

The penitential rite at the beginning of Mass would be expanded to mirror more closely the Latin translation. Whereas Catholics currently say, “I have sinned through my fault,” they would eventually say, “I have sinned greatly through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault.”

 

[BobP123]

Pauline: Confiteor Deo omnipotenti et vobis, fratres, quia peccavi nimis cogitatione, verbo, opere et omissione: mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

(Translation: I confess to almighty God, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault (all strike their breast) in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do)

Lest one thinks that the TLM is lacking “omissions” altogether, do realize that it is expressed in the Old Rite’s Offertory:

P. Suscipe, sancte Pater, omnipotens aeterne Deus, hanc immaculatam hostiam, quam ego indignus famulus tuus offero tibi, Deo meo vivo et vero, pro innumerabilibus peccatis, et offensionibus, et negligentiis meis, et pro omnibus circumstantibus, sed et pro omnibus fidelibus Christianis vivis atque defunctis. ut mihi, et illis proficiat ad salutem in vitam aeternam.

 

[patrick457]

Since they already did an English comparison, I would really like to do the Latin one, at least for the Offertory. (Similar parts in bold)

===========
OFFERING THE HOST

EF: Suscipe, sancte Pater, omnipotens aeterne Deus, hanc immaculatam hostiam, quam ego indignus famulus tuus offero tibi, Deo meo vivo et vero, pro innumerabilibus peccatis, et offensionibus, et negligentiis meis, et pro omnibus circumstantibus, sed et pro omnibus fidelibus Christianis vivis atque defunctis: ut mihi, et illis proficiat ad salutem in vitam aeternam. Amen.

OF: Benedictus es, Domine, Deus universi, quia de tua largitate accepimus panem, quem tibi offerimus, fructum terrae et operis manuum hominum: ex quo nobis fiet panis vitae. (Benedictus Deus in saecula.)

===========
THE BLESSING OF THE WATER

EF: Deus, qui humanae substantiae dignitatem mirabiliter condidisti, et mirabilius reformasti: da nobis per hujus aquae et vini mysterium, ejus divinitatis esse consortes, qui humanitatis nostrae fieri dignatus est particeps, Jesus Christus Filius tuus Dominus noster: Qui tecum vivit et regnat in unitate Spiritus Sancti Deus: per omnia saecula saeculorum. Amen.

OF: Per huius aquae et vini mysterium eius efficiamur divinitatis consortes, qui humanitatis nostrae fieri dignatus est particeps.

============
THE CHALICE

EF: Offerimus tibi, Domine, calicem salutaris, tuam deprecantes clementiam: ut in conspectu divinae majestatis tuae, pro nostra et totius mundi salute cum odore suavitatis ascendat. (Amen.)

OF: Benedictus es, Domine, Deus universi, quia de tua largitate accepimus vinum, quod tibi
offerimus, Fructum vitis et operis manuum hominum, ex quo nobis fiet potus spiritalis.

================
IN SPIRITU HUMILITATIS

EF: In spiritu humilitatis, et in animo contrito suscipiamur a te, Domine: et sic fiat sacrificum nostrum in conspectu tuo hodie, ut placeat tibi, Domine Deus.

Veni, Sanctificator omnipotens aeterne Deus, et benedic hoc sacrificium tuo sancto nomini praeparatum.

OF: In spiritu humilitatis et in animo contrito suscipiamur a te, Domine; et sic fiat sacrificium nostrum in conspectu tuo hodie, ut placeat tibi, Domine Deus.

 

[BobP123]

I believe the Offertory in the New Rite is a form of an old Jewish prayer. I’ve read and heard arguments that it is heretical in nature, (hostiam vs panem) although personally I think it is too benign to be such.

However, hostiam can (and should) be translated as “Victim.”

Since they already did an English comparison, I would really like to do the Latin one, at least for the Offertory. (Similar parts in bold)

===========
OFFERING THE HOST

EF: Suscipe, sancte Pater, omnipotens aeterne Deus, hanc immaculatam hostiam, quam ego indignus famulus tuus offero tibi, Deo meo vivo et vero, pro innumerabilibus peccatis, et offensionibus, et negligentiis meis, et pro omnibus circumstantibus, sed et pro omnibus fidelibus Christianis vivis atque defunctis: ut mihi, et illis proficiat ad salutem in vitam aeternam. Amen.

OF: Benedictus es, Domine, Deus universi, quia de tua largitate accepimus panem, quem tibi offerimus, fructum terrae et operis manuum hominum: ex quo nobis fiet panis vitae. (Benedictus Deus in saecula.)

 

[patrick457]

I believe the Offertory in the New Rite is a form of an old Jewish prayer. I’ve read and heard arguments that it is heretical in nature, (hostiam vs panem) although personally I think it is too benign to be such.

However, hostiam can (and should) be translated as “Victim.”

Yep, I’ve also noticed that. A number of Jewish Prayers begins with: ‘Baruch atta Adonai Eloheinu Melech ha-Olam,…’ (Blessed [or Praised] are You, Lord our God, King of the Universe; who…etc. etc.)

For example, in the blessing over the Wine:

“Baruch atta Adonai, Eloheinu Melech Ha-Olam, borei p’ri ha-gafen.”

“Blessed are You, Lord our God, King of the Universe, who creates the fruit of the vine.”

or in a prayer said before eating bread or in meals where there is bread (or during the Seder, said before eating the Matzo):

“Baruch atta Adonai, Eloheinu Melech Ha-Olam, Ha-motzi lechem min ha’aretz.”

“Blessed are You, Lord our God, King of the universe, who brings forth bread from the Earth.”

 

[Aramis]

Considering probably 90%+ of NO masses are in the vernacular anyway, it is informative to look at the vernacular itself.

One can see that the NO Mass is in essence a shortened TLM, so to say. There are parts of the TLM that are not in the NO, but there are almost no parts of the NO that don’t appear in the TLM. Good, bad, or neutral, that’s what it is.

While my experience with the Latin is the Dominican Mass, not the Roman, I’ve never seen an Ordinary Form as short as Fr. John Fearon’s (O.P.) Domincan Latin Mass: 15 minutes. In the side chapel, since myself and another had arrived late due to busses running late on a holy day of obligation. I’ve seen 30 minute daily OF masses… When Fr. John used the DLM as a daily mass, it was closer to 20 minutes.

Oh, and note that the comparative text is taken from a 1945 Latin Missal. My mother’s 1957 is annotated with lots of changes for the '62 liturgy… and '65…

Often, people forget that there was some change occurring before V II…
There is one big addition in the 73 missal: the additional reading.

But the two are closely related in their prescribed form. (Tho’, apparently, outside of Alaska, the prescribed form seems to be rare…)

My mother talsk often of Fr. Greggory (San Antonio, Tx, ca 1967) and his 20 minute daily mass in Latin.

Also, the OF side is missing the priest’s prayer before saying the gospel: “May the Word of the Lord Be in my mind, on my lips, and in my heart, that I may worthily proclaim the Holy Gospel.”

But, I was just thinking, isn’t comparing the two a violation of the Rules on CAF?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

In my opinion it is like comparing a plain cheese pizza with a pizza that has pepperoni, sausage, green pepper, olives, light mushroom and oninons. Both are pizza, both taste great, but one really hits the spot/tastebuds.

 

[Red_Meg]

In my opinion it is like comparing a plain cheese pizza with a pizza that has pepperoni, sausage, green pepper, olives, light mushroom and oninons. Both are pizza, both taste great, but one really hits the spot/tastebuds.

Only if the pepperoni and sausage don’t give you heartburn… Heck, if we’re gonna go with weird comparisons, let’s carry 'em to their logical (illogical??) conclusion!

Pax,

Margaret

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Only if the pepperoni and sausage don’t give you heartburn… Heck, if we’re gonna go with weird comparisons, let’s carry 'em to their logical (illogical??) conclusion!

Pax,

Margaret

At least leave the pepperoni…Then again, isnt the heart burn worth it?

If you want a truly twisted question, why does “Hawaiian style” pizza mostly consist of “Canadian bacon”?

 

[JuanCarlos]

Also, the OF side is missing the priest’s prayer before saying the gospel: “May the Word of the Lord Be in my mind, on my lips, and in my heart, that I may worthily proclaim the Holy Gospel.”

In all my years of OF, I have not once heard this priest say this

 

[AJV]

In all my years of OF, I have not once heard this priest say this

You shouldn’t because it’s supposed to be said silently.

 

[BobP123]

In my opinion it is like comparing a plain cheese pizza with a pizza that has pepperoni, sausage, green pepper, olives, light mushroom and oninons. Both are pizza, both taste great, but one really hits the spot/tastebuds.

Or how about a baseball game where you remove most of your fielders, widen or remove the foul lines and shorten the bases? Still baseball but not very exciting to watch anymore.

 

[Aramis]

You shouldn’t because it’s supposed to be said silently.

The actual rubric says “quietly” not “silently”.

I’ve heard it in Roman masses since 1976… when I first started serving at the altar.

Also, if the gospel reader isn’t the celebrant, the celebrant is supposed to bless the gospel reader before this.

 

[AJV]

The actual rubric says “quietly” not “silently”.

I’ve heard it in Roman masses since 1976… when I first started serving at the altar.

Also, if the gospel reader isn’t the celebrant, the celebrant is supposed to bless the gospel reader before this.

Thanks for the correction! You’re right, silently does give a wrong impression- “Quietly” expresses the ‘secret’ voice much better.

I kind of assumed the poster would not have heard “Almighty God, cleanse my heart and my lips that I may worthily proclaim your Gospel” because he was in the pews. It didn’t occur to me that he would be close enough to hear the priest (which, sometimes even if serving, for certain priests is difficult to hear although you can see the lips moving. ) OTOH, as in the recetn thread in the L&S forum, some priests do say it out aloud before the Gospel.

 

[St_Isidore]

maybe you can share some thoughts on the N.O. Mass from the church of satan website.

Why? Is this also the Mass they use, i.e. the New Order Mass?

 

[St_Isidore]

At least leave the pepperoni…Then again, isnt the heart burn worth it?

If you want a truly twisted question, why does “Hawaiian style” pizza mostly consist of “Canadian bacon”?

Please leave the Canadian Bacon out of this.

 

[Aramis]

In going through it, there are several minor omissions on the OF (NO) side.

but it is generally a useful document.