Sign of peace...

[ncjohn]

Emotions need to be controlled by the intellect.

I have to say, that of all the things I have heard said at this site, that this is the one with which I will take the greatest issue.

I agree that raw emotionalism is out of place in any function in life. But I will just as strongly state that raw intellectualism may be one of the greatest sins of the Church.

God gave us both because we need both–in balance–to function in life. I’m not talking about a “sappy” emotionalism, but the fact that it is from our hearts that love springs. And without love our great religion is but dust.
1 Corinthians:

And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing…
…So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

We cannot “know” our way into love, nor will our “knowing” save us. It is only the heart in conjunction with the head that can bring us to wisdom. For compassion and mercy are functions of the informed heart, and are at the center of our faith. They are not the “servants” of the intellect.

Emotions are also why we have symbols in the Mass to begin with. Symbols speak to the deep inner yearning that we have for God, with different symbols speaking in different ways to different people.

Yes, that symbolism is lost to many on both sides in this particular symbol. It is unquestionalby lost to those who just make it a time of socialization, but I fear that that is mostly just through lack of instruction on its meaning, and proper leadership in modeling its actual meaning and the reverence it deserves. But it is also lost to those to whom the symbol doesn’t speak personally and who then disparage it as meaningless rather than considering that it may still be valid for many others if properly understood.

I agree that something needs to be done to restore it to its true meaning and dignity, or that it should be scrapped if that can’t or won’t be done. It’s current state, in many parishes at least, has become more distraction than meaningful symbol. And that is sad.

Peace,

 

[MariaG]

Haven’t posted in a while and thought I would chime in!

These are all very good points and I an thankful that everyone is sharing.

I personally feel that it is in the wrong place during the Mass. I find it very disruptive in most parishes, especially when the celebrant comes off the altar and engages the congregation (which they are not supposed to do!) I believe it is a symbolic gesture. You cannot personally request reconciliation (Peace) with every member of the body of Christ so you turn to the member of the Body of Christ to your left and to your right with a simple sign of Peace and move on with the rest of Mass in reverence. (Sadly enough, the same people who go up and down the row of pews at the Sign of Peace are the same ones to leave people stranded in the parking lot with a flat tire! True story, but that is another day!) Nothing is more distracting than the congregation getting out of the pews and socializing at this point in the mass. I have been in some churches that I was so stunned at the noise, that I simply knelt down in prayer and begged Christ’s forgiveness for turning this portion of the sacrifice of the Mass into a 5 minute intermission!

Should it be eliminated - NO! Just reformed a bit to bring everyone back to a more reverent posture during Mass and in doing so rekindle and strengthen the belief in the real presence.

By the way, I knee for Communion as well. If everyone truly believed in the Real Presence of Christ, wouldn’t we crawl on our bellies in humility to receive Our Lord? Thank you Jesus for saving me! Please make me worthy of your gift!

So are most saying that it is not the solemn, yet joyful, “peace be with you”, and it’s many layers of meaning but the excess and abusive “glad handing” of a more “hi how are you” kind of thing that people wish were gone?

Of course this is not addressing the germ issues, but that is separate and seems to ADD to the problem and not be THE problem for most?

God bless,
Maria

 

[ComradeAndrei]

I agree that something needs to be done to restore it to its true meaning and dignity, or that it should be scrapped if that can’t or won’t be done. It’s current state, in many parishes at least, has become more distraction than meaningful symbol. And that is sad.

This I agree with.

In the Chaldean and Maronite rites, the sign of Peace comes from God, through the Priest, to the alter servers, and finally to the people. The alter servers come to each row and put their hands out like they are praying and we cover their hands and pass it to the next person. This is not optional; it is indeed the peace of Christ.

It is much like the 62 Mass when the priest turns around and says “Dominus Vobiscum”. If the sign of peace held to this idea-that peace come from God through the priest at the Mass it would be splendid. This is a roundly Catholic way of thinking. Unfortunately, we’ve often allowed ourselves to think like protestants and see the Church kinda like protestants.

 

[CarolAnnSFO]

So are most saying that it is not the solemn, yet joyful, “peace be with you”, and it’s many layers of meaning but the excess and abusive “glad handing” of a more “hi how are you” kind of thing that people wish were gone?

That sounds about right. It’s the noisy, cocktail party-like nature of the usual Sign of Peace that many of us object to. It really can feel like an intrusion.

**Crazy Internet Junkies Society
**Carrier of the Angelic Sparkles Sprinkle Bag
Pace e Bene

 

[runandsew]

hate it in the fall and winter…during the cold and flu season…

So, you catch a cold or flu, you die, you go to heaven. What’s to hate?

 

[FloridaPhil]

“Peace be with you!” is indeed a prayer. What a beautiful time to offer that particular prayer - during Mass as the Eucharist is consecrated.

 

[Titus]

I agree. There is no need to be reconciled with the strangers sitting next to me – I don’t have any argument with them, and I assume they have no argument with me.

What exactly is the purpose of all this handshaking?

My hypothesis is that it is the successor of the Jewish Tradition of Ereth Yom Kippur, where it is necessary to have the forgiveness of your fellow man before you can gain the forgiveness of God. The Sign of Peace symbolises that we are all at peace with one another, and are ready to receive Christ.

 

[MariaG]

That sounds about right. It’s the noisy, cocktail party-like nature of the usual Sign of Peace that many of us object to. It really can feel like an intrusion.

Crazy Internet Junkies Society
Carrier of the Angelic Sparkles Sprinkle Bag
Pace e Bene

Oh good. I was really becoming worried at the way most viewed this. I guess I can see wishing to get rid of the “glad handing” if it has gotten to that point.

I personally just try to change the atmosphere by my greeting if things seem to be going to far towards a “hi how are you” as well as I try to teach my CCD kids that it is not a greeting but a time of reconcilliation, joy, and proclamation

 

[FloridaPhil]

“Peace be with you!” is a prayer.

What a great time to offer such a prayer - at the consecration of the Eucharist.

 

[johnnykins]

“Peace be with you!” is a prayer.

What a great time to offer such a prayer - at the consecration of the Eucharist.

True, but unfortunately it doesn’t work that way in practice. The catechesis was horrible in the introduction of this ritual - and the implemenation has been even worse. It is, IMHO, horribly and terribly misued and abused. The Kum Bah Yah crowd has totally manhandled it into another “I’m Ok/You’re OK” late 60’s adolescent glad-hand fest that not only has lost it’s prayerful meaning, but has become an affirmative scandal within the Mass itself by it’s usual inanity in operation. Let’s get rid of it for 2 or 3 generations - and then try again with the proper catechesis and ritual safeguards.

 

[kim3260]

I’m one of the few who actually like it. It is done very respectfully at least in my Parish, and it gives a sense of Community that seems to be lacking in many Parishes around the Country.
I, myself can be deep in Prayer, pause, greet my neighbor, then proceed deep in Prayer.
We also at the end of Mass publicly greet any vistors or new Parishoners.

 

[runandsew]

The sign (kiss) of peace has been in the Mass from the very beginning, and Mass is suppose to teach us how to love the way Jesus loved.
I don’t mean to sound rude, but it sounds to me like a whole lot of people just don’t get it!

I would recommend 2 of Father Larry Richards CD’s
“The Mass explained” and “The Truth”.
Or if you want to save a couple of bucks this site.

 

[St_John]

It does seem, after reading many threads at this forum, that there are many irritated people at church. I wasn’t aware of that until joining here, how many people disliked how Mass was conducted. I wonder how representative of the average Catholic the people who post at this site are?

I thought that we were supposed to obey our superiors, who are the leaders of our church. I was raised to respect our clergy and religious. I don’t understand the attitudes of the people posting here who claim to be devout.

 

[robertaf]

It does seem, after reading many threads at this forum, that there are many irritated people at church. I wasn’t aware of that until joining here, how many people disliked how Mass was conducted. I wonder how representative of the average Catholic the people who post at this site are?

I thought that we were supposed to obey our superiors, who are the leaders of our church. I was raised to respect our clergy and religious. I don’t understand the attitudes of the people posting here who claim to be devout.

I have to agree with you.
I spent months in this forum. Then slowly, I noticed that much of what you spoke about, negativity, judging others and general griping was actually threatening my own Spirituality. I had to leave for awhile.
I did miss a lot of the fellowship though and some good friends I had made here.
Now, I know the warning signs. I know when to scoot and take a break.
Too bad, huh?

 

[johnnykins]

It does seem, after reading many threads at this forum, that there are many irritated people at church. I wasn’t aware of that until joining here, how many people disliked how Mass was conducted. I wonder how representative of the average Catholic the people who post at this site are?

I thought that we were supposed to obey our superiors, who are the leaders of our church. I was raised to respect our clergy and religious. I don’t understand the attitudes of the people posting here who claim to be devout.

Then you haven’t been paying attention to what’s happened to the Church during the last 40 years. Apostasy in numbers and percentages far exceeding the Reformation or Great Schism. A collapse of catechesis and belief in the Real Presence. The foie gras-like forced feeding of silly and ill-thought out/ill-implemented reforms done, often, in complete disregard of what VII actually said.

Respect is something that is earned - even for the clergy. The Bishops and clergy and vowed religious have largely squandered the heritage of respect they inherited. They have done so by their egotistical manhandling of the liturgy, disregard for doctrine (if not outright heresy), a clericalism of disregard for the laity that far surpasses the clericalism they themselves railed against from times past, a generalized failure to catechize, near criminal(or actual criminal) protection of youth from sexual abuse while enabling abusers, actual abuse carried out on a stunning scale, etc., etc., etc.

Yeah it’s got to stop. Yeah that’s what been happening in VERY LARGE PART. They need to be called on it. They need to reform themselves and the reform that they botched. They need to hear it loud and clear because history has shown they won’t listen otherwise. And, if they are unhappy about this, they have no one but themselves, their predecessors and confreres to blame.

It’s a perfect shame that that’s where we are. As recently as a month ago I attended a Mass where the priest changed the words of the canon - as well as other parts of the Ordinary. The Kiss of Peace has almost always been an embarrassing joke since its introduction in the present form. I’ve met way too many nuns and priests who are open and verbal in their disdain for Catholicism, its history doctrine, organization and leadership. Top this off with the “boy in every rectory” activities of too many priests and the fraternity-like protection offered by Bishops to such abusers - and yes, it’s time to speak up. It’s time to SHOUT - IT"S GOT TO STOP.

 

[netmilsmom]

That sounds about right. It’s the noisy, cocktail party-like nature of the usual Sign of Peace that many of us object to. It really can feel like an intrusion.

Cocktail party is just about it.
I actually like the Sign of Peace. I love greeting my neighbors and kissing my family. I love seeing my children get a big kick out of greeting strangers or friends. We have a very solemn Holy Mass. At this time they wave at friends across the aisle. It makes it wonderful.

Luckily I don’t have the cocktail party going on at my parish but I have seen it. I’ve seen actual networking going on. Where someone beelines to the popular parishioners. That should not be what it’s all about.

 

[FloridaPhil]

And just as often it’s about symbols that we find meaningful in approaching God. Those symbols may speak differently to you than to others, but that doesn’t make them invalid, nor does it mean that it’s just an emotional “doing what feels good to me” situation at all.

While there may indeed be some of that, most of us tend to do what we feel is most pleasing to God, or do something in a way in which we feel more connected to God. That will vary between different people based on many factors.

It doesn’t make one more or less invalid, it just makes them different. Getting all judgmental about why YOU think other people are doing things, or dismissing them because they are symbols that don’t speak to you, might be nothing more than failing to remember that we have a God of infinite wisdom and knowledge with the capability of relating to each and every one of us in a different way.

I tend to personally express it exactly as I think it is meant: as a wish for each of my brothers and sisters to feel the peace of Christ in the same way I wish to. There are some days I am more or less successful at that. If it went away tomorrow, I wouldn’t be crushed, but while it is there I will take that opportunity to express that wish. It isn’t about “building community”; it’s about wishing peace to all and letting it begin with me.

Peace,

 

[FloridaPhil]

Well said.

 

[FloridaPhil]

True, but unfortunately it doesn’t work that way in practice. The catechesis was horrible in the introduction of this ritual - and the implemenation has been even worse. It is, IMHO, horribly and terribly misued and abused. The Kum Bah Yah crowd has totally manhandled it into another “I’m Ok/You’re OK” late 60’s adolescent glad-hand fest that not only has lost it’s prayerful meaning, but has become an affirmative scandal within the Mass itself by it’s usual inanity in operation. Let’s get rid of it for 2 or 3 generations - and then try again with the proper catechesis and ritual safeguards.

To suggest that the prayer of “peace be with you” dosn’t work in practice atr that time is dead wrong. I’ve ofter left Mass with great fellowship exchanges and a new fiend or two, directly resulting fom offering & praying for praying peace with a total stranger.

Maybe I’m naive, but I don’t know of anyone who abuses it. I actually look forward to it as a fruit from the Blessed Sacrament.

 

[johnnykins]

To suggest that the prayer of “peace be with you” dosn’t work in practice atr that time is dead wrong. I’ve ofter left Mass with great fellowship exchanges and a new fiend or two, directly resulting fom offering & praying for praying peace with a total stranger.

Maybe I’m naive, but I don’t know of anyone who abuses it. I actually look forward to it as a fruit from the Blessed Sacrament.

Maybe my experience since the 1960s is unusual - though I believe otherwise. I’m not dead wrong because I’ve seen it way too may times turn into a glad-hand fest that has zip to do with Mass. It is often a scandal in the way I’ve seen it conducted.

It’s optional and I would cut it in a second. You know all you have to do is read this thread and the abysmal catechesis on this ritual is so evdent as to not require further proof that it’s been a failure.