Sign of peace...

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Funny how Christ himself points to the children as examples. Could he possibly have been referring to something other than their selfishness and their 'look at me" attitudes?

God Bless you and your children your in my prayers.
What’s with the bold?
I read what you wrote perfectly well in arial 2. Are you yelling?
My friend, no child is perfect. Much of the problems with children today are parents who think that children are just darling and everything they do should be tolerated. Children should be trained to be adults, we should not be striving to be them. Raising my own children, one niece, one nephew. years of working Daycare, doing children’s aerobics and YMCA summercare, I can tell you that this is more than my own children.

That being said, I will leave the historic Bible perspective to the other posters. They are giving you the insight you need.
 
All we need to do is whatch the children who gladly, enthusiasticly and smilingly shake hands to know that we need to learn from and be reminded by “such as these” as we approach the Kingdom.
As a person who voted “I love it” and has a deep love for the Sign of Peace, I have to say this struck me as odd.

I do know that my children are shy, but in my parish, my young children and the children of others while they do smile when doing this, are actually quited reserved about it.

It is not until they are a bit older that it can become much more “enthusiastic”.

The “enthusiasm” that is sometimes seen can be a learned response in my opinion. The joy, reflected in the smile and quite reserve are what I see as the working of the Holy Spirit.

Obviously others may have a different experience, but as I said, look at the 4 - 6 year olds and I usually see a huge smile and a quiet reserve. If that is what you are referring to when you talk about Enthusiasm, I would agree. Otherwise, I respectfully disagree.

God Bless,
Maria
 
Phil:thumbsup: Thank you. We can only wish to be as pure as little children. (and this ain’t no hippie thing;) )
AMEN TO THAT!

I am 70 years old and believe exactly what you say.
It is funny, too because many middle aged and younger folks
indeed, begin treating us seniors like little children again. hehe.
I know, I don’t find it particularly funny either, I find it downright rude and disrespectful.
The point is that childlike INNOCENCE AND PURITY of mind and spirit is something to strive for.

You know, I think it is nothing more than personal taste. I realize folks often sound holier than thou and even sanctimoneous to insist that their way is the most “reverant” or “respectful” or “Catholic” way. I don’t know why this makes them feel good but it surely must because they do it every time.

I have been in many many parishes around the west coast in my lifetime. I have been in very stiff and “reverent” (hehe) parishes where other than little cliques, no one knows each others first name.
I have been in parishes like the one I am in now, where we meet and greet and introduce ourselves, we even know folks kids first names. We are friendly and casual with each other and even (gasp) wave at a friend across the Church before Mass begins. Worse yet, we have been seen blowing kisses at each other or at a child.
These are two extremems, I admit. There are many in between.
We have one great thing in common. We are all Catholic, love the Lord, adore the Holy Eucharist and walk in the Holy Spirit.

I happen to love my current parish, it suits me. We have a Pastor who follows the rules without being obvious about it. He knows the names of his parishioners (most of them) even though he has been in this parish less than two years.

I am truly not a person who is overly concious of rules. Yes, I know, shame on me. I am not overly concious of the posture folks use when they worship the Lord. I tend to be an enthusiastic person. I clap sometimes to the music, I lift my hands sometimes in prayer. In our parish, everyone seems to be pretty much into their own worship and don’t seem to notice. Well, neither do I.

I guess it is up to us to find the sort of parish that we fit into. It isn’t hard. Holy Mother Church is big enough to embrace us all.
 
I’m one of the few who actually like it. It is done very respectfully at least in my Parish, and it gives a sense of Community that seems to be lacking in many Parishes around the Country.
I, myself can be deep in Prayer, pause, greet my neighbor, then proceed deep in Prayer.
We also at the end of Mass publicly greet any vistors or new Parishoners.
Despite what you may think, you are not in the minority and I agree w/ you. And, finally, the posters behind you have been coming to the defense of this prayer! The only comment I have to add to your post is that the Sign of Peace is a prayer itself. By your comment, it is obvious that you greet those around you with a depth of prayer. God Blesss you.
 
Maybe my experience since the 1960s is unusual - though I believe otherwise. I’m not dead wrong because I’ve seen it way too may times turn into a glad-hand fest that has zip to do with Mass. It is often a scandal in the way I’ve seen it conducted.

It’s optional and I would cut it in a second. You know all you have to do is read this thread and the abysmal catechesis on this ritual is so evdent as to not require further proof that it’s been a failure.
Any of us who need catechesis would love it if you would deign yourself to be specific. Thanks. I’m always looking to improve.
 
I deal with the handshaking but the Our Father handholding with strangers has always bothered me. I don’t mind holding my family members hands but if I have a free hand I plant it firmly on the pew and don’t offer it up to the stranger beside me. If I’m viewed as unfriendly, so be it. I would rather concentrate on the Our Father then to worry about me holding hands with a stranger.
That’s more a cultural hangup (for lack of a bettter word) here in America. I live in an area frequented by Europeans. The double kiss on the cheeks, bold hugs can be a little unsettling if you weren’t raised that way. My father (when he was alive) had no problem reaching over and giving a total strange a cross on his/her forehead with his thumb whe he said “good bye”. He was from Sicily and raised to do so.
 
What’s with the bold?
I read what you wrote perfectly well in arial 2. Are you yelling?
My friend, no child is perfect. Much of the problems with children today are parents who think that children are just darling and everything they do should be tolerated. Children should be trained to be adults, we should not be striving to be them. Raising my own children, one niece, one nephew. years of working Daycare, doing children’s aerobics and YMCA summercare, I can tell you that this is more than my own children.

That being said, I will leave the historic Bible perspective to the other posters. They are giving you the insight you need.
No yelling intended, I’m not as computer literate as I’d like to be.

I actually do not disagree with you from the “everything tolerated” stand point. Yes there is way too much of that these days. I too, train my children to be adults. With that being said; I never said “strive to be them”. Neither did Jesus.

The “peace be with you” was wonderful this morning at Mass.

God Bless and your children.
 
AMEN TO THAT!

I am 70 years old and believe exactly what you say.
It is funny, too because many middle aged and younger folks
indeed, begin treating us seniors like little children again. hehe.
I know, I don’t find it particularly funny either, I find it downright rude and disrespectful.
The point is that childlike INNOCENCE AND PURITY of mind and spirit is something to strive for.

You know, I think it is nothing more than personal taste. I realize folks often sound holier than thou and even sanctimoneous to insist that their way is the most “reverant” or “respectful” or “Catholic” way. I don’t know why this makes them feel good but it surely must because they do it every time.

I have been in many many parishes around the west coast in my lifetime. I have been in very stiff and “reverent” (hehe) parishes where other than little cliques, no one knows each others first name.
I have been in parishes like the one I am in now, where we meet and greet and introduce ourselves, we even know folks kids first names. We are friendly and casual with each other and even (gasp) wave at a friend across the Church before Mass begins. Worse yet, we have been seen blowing kisses at each other or at a child.
These are two extremems, I admit. There are many in between.
We have one great thing in common. We are all Catholic, love the Lord, adore the Holy Eucharist and walk in the Holy Spirit.

I happen to love my current parish, it suits me. We have a Pastor who follows the rules without being obvious about it. He knows the names of his parishioners (most of them) even though he has been in this parish less than two years.

I am truly not a person who is overly concious of rules. Yes, I know, shame on me. I am not overly concious of the posture folks use when they worship the Lord. I tend to be an enthusiastic person. I clap sometimes to the music, I lift my hands sometimes in prayer. In our parish, everyone seems to be pretty much into their own worship and don’t seem to notice. Well, neither do I.

I guess it is up to us to find the sort of parish that we fit into. It isn’t hard. Holy Mother Church is big enough to embrace us all.
Yes inded! Amen to that and to your comments as well.

God Bless you and Peace always.
 
I have to say, that of all the things I have heard said at this site, that this is the one with which I will take the greatest issue.

I agree that raw emotionalism is out of place in any function in life. But I will just as strongly state that raw intellectualism may be one of the greatest sins of the Church.

God gave us both because we need both–in balance–to function in life. I’m not talking about a “sappy” emotionalism, but the fact that it is from our hearts that love springs. And without love our great religion is but dust.

We cannot “know” our way into love, nor will our “knowing” save us. It is only the heart in conjunction with the head that can bring us to wisdom. For compassion and mercy are functions of the informed heart, and are at the center of our faith. They are not the “servants” of the intellect.

Emotions are also why we have symbols in the Mass to begin with. Symbols speak to the deep inner yearning that we have for God, with different symbols speaking in different ways to different people.

Yes, that symbolism is lost to many on both sides in this particular symbol. It is unquestionalby lost to those who just make it a time of socialization, but I fear that that is mostly just through lack of instruction on its meaning, and proper leadership in modeling its actual meaning and the reverence it deserves. But it is also lost to those to whom the symbol doesn’t speak personally and who then disparage it as meaningless rather than considering that it may still be valid for many others if properly understood.

I agree that something needs to be done to restore it to its true meaning and dignity, or that it should be scrapped if that can’t or won’t be done. It’s current state, in many parishes at least, has become more distraction than meaningful symbol. And that is sad.

Peace,
Too much emotionalism is why this topic generates so much interest. Are we operating strictly be feelings or are we trying to grow deeper in understanding and love of Christ?

Do you think emotions should not be controlled by reason and our will? So, if your emotion leads you to high five someone during the sign of peace that is legitimate?
 
Do you think emotions should not be controlled by reason and our will?
No, I don’t. Emotions are “informed” by the intellect, but not controlled by it. Our entire response to God is a desire to please Him, which is an emotion and not an intellectual response, though it may be an emotion informed by the intellect in discovering God as Truth. When properly informed, our emotions will express themselves in appropriate ways.

I believe you will find that psychology clearly tells us that emotions that one attempts to control or repress will be manifested in some other manner, usually resulting in neurotic behavior.

Now, if what you actually mean in your statement is that our intellect will help us to control our responses, I would fully agree with you, but that did not appear to be what your statement said at all.
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fix:
So, if your emotion leads you to high five someone during the sign of peace that is legitimate?
I think I’ve clearly answered that I don’t believe any such thing. Proper instruction and modeling of a symbol lead to a proper understanding of it and a reverent expression of it. It may still be a symbol that doesn’t resonate with some, but at least they hopefully will then at least understand its value rather than disparaging a symbol that has value for others.

Peace,
 
No, I don’t. Emotions are “informed” by the intellect, but not controlled by it. Our entire response to God is a desire to please Him, which is an emotion and not an intellectual response, though it may be an emotion informed by the intellect in discovering God as Truth. When properly informed, our emotions will express themselves in appropriate ways.

I believe you will find that psychology clearly tells us that emotions that one attempts to control or repress will be manifested in some other manner, usually resulting in neurotic behavior.

Now, if what you actually mean in your statement is that our intellect will help us to control our responses, I would fully agree with you, but that did not appear to be what your statement said at all.

I think I’ve clearly answered that I don’t believe any such thing. Proper instruction and modeling of a symbol lead to a proper understanding of it and a reverent expression of it. It may still be a symbol that doesn’t resonate with some, but at least they hopefully will then at least understand its value rather than disparaging a symbol that has value for others.

Peace,
My original post about emotionalism was an attempt to point out these distractions during the mass may be the result of following our feelings that ought to be governed by reason and intellect. We simply do not act out as we choose whenever we choose and however we choose.
…The moral virtues are to regulate the passions and employ them as aids in the progress of spiritual life. A just man at times experiences great joy, great hope and confidence, and other feelings in performing duties of piety, and also great sensible sorrow, as well as sorrow of soul, for his sins, and he is thus confirmed in his justice. He can also merit constantly by restraining and purifying his passions. The saints who reached the exalted state of perfection, have retained their capacity for all human emotions and their sensibility has remained subject to the ordinary laws; but in them the love of God has controlled the mental images which excite the passions and directed all their emotions to His active service. It has been justly said that the saint dies, and is born again: he dies to an agitated, distracted and sensual life, by temperance, continency, and austerity, and is born to a new and transformed life. He passes through what St. John calls “the night of the senses”, after which his eyes are opened to a clearer light. “The saint will return later on to sensible objects to enjoy them in his own way, but far more intensely than other men” (H. Joly, “Psychology of the Saints”, 128). Accordingly we can understand how the passions and the emotions of the sensitive appetite may be directed and devoted to the service of God, and to the acquisition, increase, and perfection of virtue…

newadvent.org/cathen/11534a.htm
After reading what you have said I hope, even more now, for a reform of this part of the mass. We have endured a do-it-yourself mentality for too long. Let us hope for an authentic unity.
 
After the Sign of Peace yesterday…can I vote again that I could do without it?

I had a man in front of me shake my hand & wish me peace, but then he motioned for me to come back. He grabbed my hand again & leaned into me to whisper in my ear. Basically, he came on to me (flirting) during Mass. YUCK!
From now on I’ll have a different mind set during the Sign of Peace. Talk about distracting!
 
My original post about emotionalism was an attempt to point out these distractions during the mass may be the result of following our feelings that ought to be governed by reason and intellect. We simply do not act out as we choose whenever we choose and however we choose.
And I believe I have totally agreed with you on that. That was not the part of your post I disagreed with.
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fix:
After reading what you have said I hope, even more now, for a reform of this part of the mass. We have endured a do-it-yourself mentality for too long. Let us hope for an authentic unity.
And where have I advocated any such thing? My comment was:
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ncjohn:
I agree that something needs to be done to restore it to its true meaning and dignity, or that it should be scrapped if that can’t or won’t be done. It’s current state, in many parishes at least, has become more distraction than meaningful symbol. And that is sad.
I find your source quote very interesting where it said
Accordingly we can understand how the passions and the emotions of the sensitive appetite **may be directed and devoted **to the service of God…
This is what I meant when I commented that our responses would be informed and controlled by our intellect. All of those responses however will come from the emotion of desire to please God. My entire point is that the desire cannot be the servant of the intellect but must precede it. And that desire is not to be “controlled” by the intellect; the intellect’s purpose is to inform and direct the responses to that desire.

As I said, I think we may just be talking past each other, though at times it’s hard to tell. I do know though that we are each seeking to bring about the Kingdom of God, and for that I am grateful. 🙂

Peace,
 
I find your source quote very interesting where it said
This is what I meant when I commented that our responses would be informed and controlled by our intellect. All of those responses however will come from the emotion of desire to please God. My entire point is that the desire cannot be the servant of the intellect but must precede it. And that desire is not to be “controlled” by the intellect; the intellect’s purpose is to inform and direct the responses to that desire.

As I said, I think we may just be talking past each other, though at times it’s hard to tell. I do know though that we are each seeking to bring about the Kingdom of God, and for that I am grateful. 🙂

Peace,
How can our actions be in service to God when we let our emotions rule us? The emotions must not conflict with liturgical regulations. Why? Because the mass is not our private property. That I may* feel *I need to express myself in some particular way does not justify me contradicting how the sign of peace is to be exchanged.

See my point?
 
How can our actions be in service to God when we let our emotions rule us? The emotions must not conflict with liturgical regulations. Why? Because the mass is not our private property. That I may* feel *I need to express myself in some particular way does not justify me contradicting how the sign of peace is to be exchanged.

See my point?
I see your point and I think we are mostly in agreement. In fact I’m not sure if/where we aren’t.

Though I don’t think there is a specific of “how” it is to be expressed specifically, I think we both recognize that it needs to be a reverent expression of a wish for peace to the other person rather than some glad-handing exchange of football scores.

I’m not sure at all where you’re seeing me saying that I think an “anything goes” emotional response is acceptable.

My point is that the intellect doesn’t control the emotions, it controls the responses.
 
My point is that the intellect doesn’t control the emotions, it controls the responses.
Would you agree they should be regulated by reason and subject to control of the will? My point is at times they need to be restrained.
 
After the Sign of Peace yesterday…can I vote again that I could do without it?

I had a man in front of me shake my hand & wish me peace, but then he motioned for me to come back. He grabbed my hand again & leaned into me to whisper in my ear. Basically, he came on to me (flirting) during Mass. YUCK!
From now on I’ll have a different mind set during the Sign of Peace. Talk about distracting!
I do think that their should be some promoted and published guidelines.

I am a golfer; as a golfer realize that ettiquete standards are included in the rule book as part of the rules of the game.
 
Would you agree they should be regulated by reason and subject to control of the will? My point is at times they need to be restrained.
If you mean the responses, yes I would agree. If you mean the emotions themselves, I would disagree. Let me use a semi-parable.

When my kids were growing up we would, like most families, make trips with the kids to see my parents and my wife’s parents. My father was of German stock–who in my experience are mostly not physically expressive–and in their house the kids were always expected to be quiet and “well-behaved”, even when receiving gifts. Hugs were not given nor received and the proper response to receiving a gift was a polite “thank you”.

At my in-laws however–who are physically affectionate people of Latin stock–the kids were allowed to be noisy and playful, and to run around as long as they were careful. They were always hugged on coming and going and the response to receiving a gift you really liked was some sort of a gleeful sound, followed by running across the room to give a hug in thanks. Which of these do you think is the better situation?

You might think that I would say the second. And for my particular kids you would be right. But from all of my study of psychology and organizational behavior, the right answer is “it depends”.

To force noisy kids who want to hug on my father would not have been a wise thing, or the right thing to do. To deprive my in-laws of those very same hugs however, or the joy they found in seeing the kids have fun, would have deprived them of great joy. As such, as early as my kids were able to understand they were taught the difference in what was expected, regardless of what their own preferences might be.

The second question though becomes: which situation will people gravitate toward? And of course the answer is “the one that most respects them as individuals”. My kids hated going to my parents house, and my mother to this day is saddened by the lack of relationship with them that was the result of their being stifled. That would not be true though for many kids who themselves are just not physically expressive or would prefer to quietly read a book rather than run and play tag or hide and seek.

Our Church does in fact recognize that it has both sets of “kids” in it, and has gone to great lengths in most cases to try to accomodate both. Unfortunately, some within the Church seem to think that their temperment is the ONLY temperment, and that anyone who reacts differently than them is being “less Catholic” or is being abusive of the liturgy.

We have parishes where the dominant culture is “quiet reverence” and we have parishes where the dominant culture is a charismatic “Amen brother”. And we have parishes where they have different Masses for their different “kids”. That is not a “right or wrong” issue. As long as the liturgy is being followed and the devotion is there, our expression of that devotion is somewhat flexible, as the Church has made clear in numerous places.

Some cannot restrain a spontaneous “hallelujah” while others of us just don’t feel right if there isn’t total postural unity and near total silence. The fact is though that none of us get to have it exactly the way we want it all the time. As you often say, the liturgy is not the “private property” of the individual, and the Church has built in the flexibility to allow communities to express their dominant cultures, as long as they are within the rubrics.

We don’t need a universal Disney-created Mass with a Pius V automatron in every church speaking the exact same words with the exact same gesture at the exact same moment, all the while attached to sensors to let it know to scream “anathema” if someone unfolds their hands to scratch their noses.

If you want an “emotionless” liturgy with only people who stay totally silent with their hands folded, I’ll be totally behind you in trying to secure one. But please try to recognize that God made others of us differently and we need just as much to address Him in the way He made us. To not acknowledge that, in many cases, makes people look like they are just incapable of experiencing joy, and by golly they’re going to make sure nobody else does either!

I’d rather help people feel the same joy I do, but I also recognize that maybe their joy is just a quiet joy that is expressed differently and that I just don’t fully understand. I do know though that our Abba is greatly pleased when we come to Him, however we express that joy.

Peace,
 
If you want an “emotionless” liturgy with only people who stay totally silent with their hands folded, I’ll be totally behind you in trying to secure one. But please try to recognize that God made others of us differently and we need just as much to address Him in the way He made us. To not acknowledge that, in many cases, makes people look like they are just incapable of experiencing joy, and by golly they’re going to make sure nobody else does either!
Which is why it should be required that an Historically Catholic VII Holy Mass should be offered in each parish. If this mass is not popular, then revert to the innovations.
The problem is that as long as the innovations are accepted as the norm, they become the norm.

In too many places, there is no Historically Catholic mass to go to. Nothing but the innovtive and those who do want the Mass of VII celebrated by the book are forgotten.

(hi John :))
 
Wow this thread had legs, I never would’ve thought the ahnd shake could spur 200 responses. I am just uncomfortable shaking strangers hands and I wish I didn’t have to do it.
 
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