J
johnstown_johnn
Guest
Delving into the Zodiac can be dangerous.
- Status
G
glenaitken
Guest
I think that this is a more tenable position, but still has its drawbacks. it woud make sense to say that (as astrology does) that a romantic relationship that begins in the winter will last longer that one that begins in the spring, but I would argue from the standpoint that it is a matter of biorythym or something to that effect.
the decription of cancer does apply to me, but i am a libra, so am i the exception or a new rule? i have to maintain that alot of this can be explained by from a more natural standpoint such as psycology.
I think that if you were to argue that the celestial bodies had and influence on the way our personhood was shaped, you would have to explore an idea which is evident in the tides. the gravitational pull of the moon decides the rise and fall of the tides by exerting itself on them. Is it possible that the astrological allignments effect the patterns of development in the womb through gravitational pull? (i am not being fecicious here, but admit that it may be the case)
I cannot answer this, and i think that only someone with a genius for many areas of science can find the answer. I have a mind for theology and philosophy, and so this possibiilty is beyond my scope. I do not think, however, that personal identity is written in the stars so much as it is in the Will of God and in our experiance on earth.
thoughts?
L
Liquid47
Guest
That is interesting, I’ve never heard of that biorhythm stuff before. Perhaps like how we use to think we were at the centre of the universe, astrology then is an ancient way of observing something we’re learning at new and progressive ways?
I’m not surprised that Libra doesn’t apply to you, as I’ve said before I know of people who don’t apply to their own given personality traits. I would have to agree then that it was the way and where you were brought up. I still think that’s the biggest factor in the way someone behaves.
I was thinking about the planetary pulls when a person is born. I mean, it’s quite a stretch of the imagination but we can’t just write it off just because we can’t study it yet.
I think that if our personalities were written in the stars so to speak, then it is an act of God. If we can perceive that part of God’s plan for us included the millions of years it took for us to evolve from primitive species, there may be a smidgen of a chance that this is one of those things.
Just out of curiousity, does your interest in Theology solely focus on Christianity or the idea of God in all religions?
G
glenaitken
Guest
I admit that the idea of planetary pulls is a bit out there, but I also think that modern science would be able to determine at the very least if it were possible, although I don’t think that our personaliteis are written in the stars, they may exert some influence over them in regards to chemistry- but again I have no way of knowing that and i must regard it as mearly a theoretical possibility.
My intrest in theology focuses on Catholic Christianity, but as St. Justin Martyr has said, “the seed of truth is in all things”. there is something right about just about everything, but Catholicism has the “fullness of truth”. Isolam and Buhddism have thier good points, and may be right about some aspects of the way man and God relate, but they do not have the fullness of Divine Revelation. Heck, even the pagan myth religions had a few things right! the Church Fathers call this the “Preperatio Evangli” the preperation for the Gospel- the idea is that since the seed of trith is in everything, when the fullness of truth came (Christ) the people were alraedy prepared by thier own “Natural Religions”. If they could recognize the small truth that people owed God a debt of Justice through worship (as the greeks believed), then they would be able to come to christ through the knowledge of that small truth to the greater.
D
Deo_Volente
Guest
Grace & Peace!
Just wanted to re-iterate something really quick. Astrology assumes that the universe is a symbol (which is not a bad assumption–the church assumes the same when it calls the universe sacramental). If astrology has any basis (please note the “if”), therefore, it’s not because the planets and constellations exert any influence on anything. It’s because the planets and constellations symbolize “spiritual” forces and influences. It is not because we are experiencing cosmic rays from distant planets–that’s a purely materialistic view of astrology (and the universe) which is alien to it’s basic assumptions. Jupiter doesn’t influence anyone to do anything. The sun in Libra doesn’t exert any particularly special force. But the principle of Jupiter for which the planet stands as a symbol may (again, may) exert some influence. The principle of the sun filtered through the principle of Libra may result in a particular influence. And the positions of the planets, constellatinos, etc. may providentially relate to the strength or presence of these various principles or forces.
Again, I am not convinced of the veracity of astrology, but I do share with astrology a belief in the symbolic nature of the universe. I am bound, therefore, not to discount it outright, but to attempt to understand it in the light of revelation–perhaps through that light, it is possible to extract from a study of astrology some boon.
So let’s not get too caught up here. At its best, all astrology can do (if there is anything to it) is reveal the presence of certain forces–like a psycho-cosmic weathervane which tells us the direction and stength of a wind. It cannot rightly be said to predict the future (nor should it be used to do so!). Moreover, if astrology is a science, it is not a physical science or a hard science, it is a sacred science. It cannot, therefore, be considered apart from a religious tradition which would give it meaning or allow it to be properly interpreted. Without the guidance of a religious tradition, the sacred science becomes a superstition. And our religious tradition says about astrology that it can lead to fatalism and can therefore be a spiritual snare. Our call is to the freedom of the gospel, not to enslavement to cosmic forces. If one were to investigate this particular traditional sacred science without the benefit of the church’s teaching on grace and free will, it could easily become deadly.
Perhaps this is aninteresting thing to discuss about astrology–it seems to assume that the soul is placed in the body at birth. That is, when the soul is breathed into the body, it descends through the various heavens (represented by the 7 traditional planets and the constellations) and given their respective and relative positions, assumes through this descent a particular character (or a particular direction of character or seed of character) which may be called, for lack of a better word, “personality”. The reverse process has been hinted at in the Eastern Orthodox belief (called a heresy by some and a pious opinion by others) regarding the tollhouses–that is, the journey through the heavens is somehow reversed at death.
Paul speaks of being caught up into one of the heavens during a mystical ecstasy–could he be referring to this process? The ascent through the heavens as a mystical exercise was meant to strip the mystic of these cosmic influences (which were never seen as particularly good things [particularly by the gnostic heresies], even if they proved temporarily beneficial–they were simply neutral forces and influences). But even assuming that this particular cosmology is accurate and adaptable or amenable to our theology, has not Christ conqured all cosmic forces and powers? In his Ascension, would he not have blazed a way through the psycho-spiritual prisons of the cosmos? Is not Christ the Way? And is it not through that Way that we are made able, by grace, to ascend to the very presence of God?
Therefore, in the light of Christ, astrological theorizing may prove a bit useless to anyone but a mystic. I won’t deny that it can be put to some good use, but it’s not a necessary subject of inquiry, as far as salvation goes, and it may in fact prove a dangerous snare. Focus on the light of Christ first, and then see what becomes important or unimportant, useful or unuseful in the light. Only in that light can such determinations be made, and only that light can keep one from stumbling into heresy or worse.
As Paul writes, all things are lawful, but not all are profitable.
Under the Mercy,
Mark
Deo Gratias!
Just wanted to re-iterate something really quick. Astrology assumes that the universe is a symbol (which is not a bad assumption–the church assumes the same when it calls the universe sacramental). If astrology has any basis (please note the “if”), therefore, it’s not because the planets and constellations exert any influence on anything. It’s because the planets and constellations symbolize “spiritual” forces and influences. It is not because we are experiencing cosmic rays from distant planets–that’s a purely materialistic view of astrology (and the universe) which is alien to it’s basic assumptions. Jupiter doesn’t influence anyone to do anything. The sun in Libra doesn’t exert any particularly special force. But the principle of Jupiter for which the planet stands as a symbol may (again, may) exert some influence. The principle of the sun filtered through the principle of Libra may result in a particular influence. And the positions of the planets, constellatinos, etc. may providentially relate to the strength or presence of these various principles or forces.
Again, I am not convinced of the veracity of astrology, but I do share with astrology a belief in the symbolic nature of the universe. I am bound, therefore, not to discount it outright, but to attempt to understand it in the light of revelation–perhaps through that light, it is possible to extract from a study of astrology some boon.
So let’s not get too caught up here. At its best, all astrology can do (if there is anything to it) is reveal the presence of certain forces–like a psycho-cosmic weathervane which tells us the direction and stength of a wind. It cannot rightly be said to predict the future (nor should it be used to do so!). Moreover, if astrology is a science, it is not a physical science or a hard science, it is a sacred science. It cannot, therefore, be considered apart from a religious tradition which would give it meaning or allow it to be properly interpreted. Without the guidance of a religious tradition, the sacred science becomes a superstition. And our religious tradition says about astrology that it can lead to fatalism and can therefore be a spiritual snare. Our call is to the freedom of the gospel, not to enslavement to cosmic forces. If one were to investigate this particular traditional sacred science without the benefit of the church’s teaching on grace and free will, it could easily become deadly.
Perhaps this is aninteresting thing to discuss about astrology–it seems to assume that the soul is placed in the body at birth. That is, when the soul is breathed into the body, it descends through the various heavens (represented by the 7 traditional planets and the constellations) and given their respective and relative positions, assumes through this descent a particular character (or a particular direction of character or seed of character) which may be called, for lack of a better word, “personality”. The reverse process has been hinted at in the Eastern Orthodox belief (called a heresy by some and a pious opinion by others) regarding the tollhouses–that is, the journey through the heavens is somehow reversed at death.
Paul speaks of being caught up into one of the heavens during a mystical ecstasy–could he be referring to this process? The ascent through the heavens as a mystical exercise was meant to strip the mystic of these cosmic influences (which were never seen as particularly good things [particularly by the gnostic heresies], even if they proved temporarily beneficial–they were simply neutral forces and influences). But even assuming that this particular cosmology is accurate and adaptable or amenable to our theology, has not Christ conqured all cosmic forces and powers? In his Ascension, would he not have blazed a way through the psycho-spiritual prisons of the cosmos? Is not Christ the Way? And is it not through that Way that we are made able, by grace, to ascend to the very presence of God?
Therefore, in the light of Christ, astrological theorizing may prove a bit useless to anyone but a mystic. I won’t deny that it can be put to some good use, but it’s not a necessary subject of inquiry, as far as salvation goes, and it may in fact prove a dangerous snare. Focus on the light of Christ first, and then see what becomes important or unimportant, useful or unuseful in the light. Only in that light can such determinations be made, and only that light can keep one from stumbling into heresy or worse.
As Paul writes, all things are lawful, but not all are profitable.
Under the Mercy,
Mark
Deo Gratias!
G
glenaitken
Guest
I agree with Mark’s conclusion, althuogh I’m not really sold on the symbolistic psyco-spiritual outlook. (Forgive me for the paraphrase, I couldn’t think of any other way of summerizing). I know the point which the infision of the soul takes place is under debate still, but I tend to think that it is as soon as the body begins to grow that the soul is present. the only way that I could see astrology even having a remote impact on the personality of a person (aside from someone submitting to it) is if there is some force (physical, like gravity or otherwise) that exerts influence over the development of a fetus in the womb. So, the theory would be that constellation X exerts force Y over people in the womb during Z point on the calander year. So, gemini’s tend to be more pessimistic (I am making this up) because the force excerted over the fetus effects the chemical aomposition of the development in such a way that most persons under the gemini sign tend towards pessimissim (as a chemical psycology) more so than persons in fetal stages in other signs. and so when early astrologers began studying the stars, they saw the coorilation and called it destiny.
I really have no way of knowing any of this, and am not convinced of it myself, but if i were looking for a way to explain why astrology works in regard to personality (of which I really do not believe that it does), then this is the route that I would explore- were I a scientist or had a gift for that sort of thing (which I do not).
In fact, I really think the whole attempt of astrology is a wast of time that i could be doing theology, but God did create the cosmos, and so if we cannot wonder at the created, it is hard to have awe for the Creator.
In regard to some of Mark’s specific arguments I submit the following objections:
I really have no way of knowing any of this, and am not convinced of it myself, but if i were looking for a way to explain why astrology works in regard to personality (of which I really do not believe that it does), then this is the route that I would explore- were I a scientist or had a gift for that sort of thing (which I do not).
In fact, I really think the whole attempt of astrology is a wast of time that i could be doing theology, but God did create the cosmos, and so if we cannot wonder at the created, it is hard to have awe for the Creator.
In regard to some of Mark’s specific arguments I submit the following objections:
- Symbols of principles- Symbols are not efficacious (as sacraments are). they do not do the thing they symbolize. Ie- a stop sign doesn’t make my car stop. If they represent a principle, they do a poor job because they are not clear nor are they universal. For example, G could equal gravity, and it is measurable. S couls equal soul, and it could be explained or known. if a crab = the principle “Cancer”, saying that this principle effects those with this sign, then it is not a universal principle, for not all with the sign cancer are effected by it. If it is not a universal principle, it must then be a subjective principle. the question, then is, “What do each of these persons have in common that the priniciple has effected them?” when you consider the range of persons supposedly effected by an astrological sign, there is too much variety to point to a singular reason they would be effected. ergo, the only likely similarity is that they are human, and there must be a very human and natural explaination for this alleged phenomena of astrology. Therefore the most reasonable thing is to look for a material cause, since a universal principle (like human dignity, or the need to be loved) would effect all everywhere, regardless of circumstance.
- What Paul speaks of should not be taken quite so literally. I think that he was mearly trying to express the truth of contemplation he’d recieved as a grace in limited ancient concepts, which the language of mystical theology had not yet begun to develop words for yet. the soul is a spirtiual entity- spirits do not act like bodies, walking this way and that. spirit exists where it acts, and therefore does not travel in tyhe same way out bodies do. there is no need, then, to ascend into the heavenlies in spirit as a journey. Christ does so in His ressurrected body, and thus His body must take a bodily way (or material way) of travel. The language of Catholic mysticism does not apply to the language of gnostics or astrologers, as they had ideas about cosmology that were very contrary to christian thought.
K
KinseyMcGuire
Guest
Well, on this topic I can say that I’m very much looking forward to the second X-Files movie this July! 
Seriously, while I do believe in the exsistance of the paranormal and supernatural, I believe that the truth of a paranormal/supernatural phenomena has to have a basis in science or faith for it to be even slightly truthful. For example, I believe in the exsistance of extra-terrestrial biological entities. (In other words, little green men) The Bible says God created THE HEAVENS and the earth, and Ezekiel had a UFO encounter. Science has not proven for it to be impossible. Therefore, I can say that is possible that aliens exsist.
As for the zodiac, I think it’s a novel phenomena at the best, and akin to gambling at the worst. I was once told that if you read the horoscopes several days or weeks in a row you’ll notice that they use the same predictions and just rotate them from sign to sign.
Seriously, while I do believe in the exsistance of the paranormal and supernatural, I believe that the truth of a paranormal/supernatural phenomena has to have a basis in science or faith for it to be even slightly truthful. For example, I believe in the exsistance of extra-terrestrial biological entities. (In other words, little green men) The Bible says God created THE HEAVENS and the earth, and Ezekiel had a UFO encounter. Science has not proven for it to be impossible. Therefore, I can say that is possible that aliens exsist.
As for the zodiac, I think it’s a novel phenomena at the best, and akin to gambling at the worst. I was once told that if you read the horoscopes several days or weeks in a row you’ll notice that they use the same predictions and just rotate them from sign to sign.
L
Liquid47
Guest
Honestly, I despise horoscopes. The ones you see in the weekly newspaper or something. To me they really are just a load of fluff that’s extremely vague to be anything of interest.Well, on this topic I can say that I’m very much looking forward to the second X-Files movie this July!
Seriously, while I do believe in the exsistance of the paranormal and supernatural, I believe that the truth of a paranormal/supernatural phenomena has to have a basis in science or faith for it to be even slightly truthful. For example, I believe in the exsistance of extra-terrestrial biological entities. (In other words, little green men) The Bible says God created THE HEAVENS and the earth, and Ezekiel had a UFO encounter. Science has not proven for it to be impossible. Therefore, I can say that is possible that aliens exsist.
As for the zodiac, I think it’s a novel phenomena at the best, and akin to gambling at the worst. I was once told that if you read the horoscopes several days or weeks in a row you’ll notice that they use the same predictions and just rotate them from sign to sign.
The only thing that really intrigues me, however, is this personality stuff.
I was also looking at the Chinese Zodiac and I have to say it does have few similarities to the Western one (though it’s still quite different), and it is quite applicable.
Nevertheless, I’ve been very interested in what glenaitken and Deo Volente have said. Very insightful, and quite helpful.
Thanks guys!
M
mariyka
Guest
Scientifically, the only effect your sign of the zodiac should have on you is the time of the year you are born. Spring babies have different early life experiences than a winter baby. I can see this possibly having an effect on developing personalities (much like birth order), but not enough to be consistently predictive.
My:twocents:
My:twocents:
M
MarieVeronica
Guest
According to Father John Trigilio (PhD) and Father Kenneth Brighenti (PhD)… authors of “Catholicism for Dummies” (page 184) and hosts of several programs on EWTN… the practice of Astrology (use of… belief in… Horoscopes) is a violation of the First Commandment… “I Am the Lord, thy God, thou shalt not have any strange gods before Me”. They go on to say…
“… the Church asserts that you can break the commandment in other ways, such as willingly and consciously being ignorant of what God has revealed in Sacred Scripture (the Bible) and Sacred Tradition (Chapter 3 of “Catholicism for Dummies”), as well as believing in and/or using astrology (horoscopes), numerology, and dianetics, which refers to the Church of Scientology.”
Hope this helps.
“… the Church asserts that you can break the commandment in other ways, such as willingly and consciously being ignorant of what God has revealed in Sacred Scripture (the Bible) and Sacred Tradition (Chapter 3 of “Catholicism for Dummies”), as well as believing in and/or using astrology (horoscopes), numerology, and dianetics, which refers to the Church of Scientology.”
Hope this helps.
J
johnstown_johnn
Guest
This is the very best post of the entire thread !!!
R
roymckenzie
Guest
Nicely said.
J
jules208
Guest
I came across this thread, and although the subject of horoscopes may have been beaten to death (this being the 50-something-th post), I do wish to say that any information (whether supported or unfounded) that we use on a regular basis to plan our day / our lives, or to make major decisions, has the potential to draw us away from God and create in us a sense of dependence and need that supplants God’s primacy in our lives.
We know that life holds many slippery slopes from which we could easily fall. Horoscopes provide one of those temptations to sin and place our trust in the daily tabloid. However, what if I told you that for years now, I’ve been basing all my decisions on the stock market? What if I told you that I read the newspapers religiously for information on what the stock exchange is doing and I decide from there how I will spend my day – where I will shop or eat, whether I will stay in Alabama or move my family to Texas, which SUV I plan to purchase and where I will send my children to school? Everyday, many people graduate from college and continue a scholastic life and cast off any religiosity because knowledge has become their “god,” so to speak. For many, research and scientific knowledge and the latest statistics influence their decisions, replacing or dampening their sense that they need any divine assistance to run their lives.
Horoscopes offer a similar avenue for straying from God. Yes, the occult is to be avoided because a newspaper horoscope reading here and a palm reading there can entice us to place our trust in them. In no time, when we were once content not knowing what will happen tomorrow, now we have to know what will happen in the evening, tomorrow and in the future. It can become an addiction, much like alcohol, illicit drugs, pornography and the like.
Too often, fear causes us to demonize certain practices (sins) that we see in society, when any evil is of the devil. Homosexual behavior and horoscopes seem to fall into that category of “oh, it’s wicked bad, stay away, it’s an abomination, worse than anything else!” In fact, as Christians, our alarms don’t seem to sound when we hear of friends or family engaging in fornication, adultery, alcohol abuse or gambling and those sins are as destructive to the soul as homosexual behavior and dependence on the occult. What makes us think that the devil is any more potent when we’re dabbling in the horoscopes than when we’re having sex with our boyfriend or girlfriend because “we love them and we plan to get married anyway”? Why do we think that horoscopes are demonic any more than taking our friend or sister to the abortion clinic or to the doctor for contraception? Yet many Catholics and Christians condone these practices.
[CONTINUED ON NEXT POST]
We know that life holds many slippery slopes from which we could easily fall. Horoscopes provide one of those temptations to sin and place our trust in the daily tabloid. However, what if I told you that for years now, I’ve been basing all my decisions on the stock market? What if I told you that I read the newspapers religiously for information on what the stock exchange is doing and I decide from there how I will spend my day – where I will shop or eat, whether I will stay in Alabama or move my family to Texas, which SUV I plan to purchase and where I will send my children to school? Everyday, many people graduate from college and continue a scholastic life and cast off any religiosity because knowledge has become their “god,” so to speak. For many, research and scientific knowledge and the latest statistics influence their decisions, replacing or dampening their sense that they need any divine assistance to run their lives.
Horoscopes offer a similar avenue for straying from God. Yes, the occult is to be avoided because a newspaper horoscope reading here and a palm reading there can entice us to place our trust in them. In no time, when we were once content not knowing what will happen tomorrow, now we have to know what will happen in the evening, tomorrow and in the future. It can become an addiction, much like alcohol, illicit drugs, pornography and the like.
Too often, fear causes us to demonize certain practices (sins) that we see in society, when any evil is of the devil. Homosexual behavior and horoscopes seem to fall into that category of “oh, it’s wicked bad, stay away, it’s an abomination, worse than anything else!” In fact, as Christians, our alarms don’t seem to sound when we hear of friends or family engaging in fornication, adultery, alcohol abuse or gambling and those sins are as destructive to the soul as homosexual behavior and dependence on the occult. What makes us think that the devil is any more potent when we’re dabbling in the horoscopes than when we’re having sex with our boyfriend or girlfriend because “we love them and we plan to get married anyway”? Why do we think that horoscopes are demonic any more than taking our friend or sister to the abortion clinic or to the doctor for contraception? Yet many Catholics and Christians condone these practices.
[CONTINUED ON NEXT POST]
J
jules208
Guest
[CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST]
Okay, I’ll get off my soap box. My point here is that, much like the full moon affects a lot of people (just call around to mental hospitals, police stations and homes for the developmentally disabled on a full moon night and ask them how busy they’ve been) and animals have a keen instinct for nature’s activities, why is it difficult to understand that we do not exist and function independently of the universe we occupy? The reality is that planets, gravity, hydrologic systems, topographic features, land and sea elevations and numerous other conditions in our environment affect us in observable and undetectable ways, from conception to death. And weren’t the three wise men who followed the star-like light to Bethlehem known to be astrologers? They didn’t read any daily horoscopes, but they spent a lot of time observing the activity of the stars, planets and so forth, didn’t they?
I’m not defending the use of daily horoscopes. As I said before, depending on and trusting in anything before God is sin. However, we don’t need to throw out the baby with the bath water because we fear that horoscopes invite the devil into our lives. He’s already there if you practice or condone anything contrary to purity and chastity of mind, body, and spirit.
What do you make of the fact that after about five or ten interactions with people I’ve met, I can “guess” correctly what month they were born in? Horoscopes don’t create or define our destiny; that’s the entertainment factor that newspapers created to make money. But what I’ve noticed from years of observation is that there are basic drives we’re born with and we each have dominant drives that color our perception of ourselves and the world, and our behaviors are shaped by those perceptions. That’s it in a nutshell. And it’s those basic drives that alert me to the month a person was born in. It may not be planets that effect similarities in people born in certain months. It might be the brands of gripe water that mothers are fed their babies. Whatever the contributors, I observe similarities that I can correctly attribute to the month in which a person was born.
As often as I hear people say that they “don’t believe in” horoscopes, I say, what’s to believe or not believe? It’s either reality or it isn’t. If I can consistently ascertain when someone was born by their manner and style, the presence or absence of certain personality traits, temperaments and values, what is there to argue about? It’s like saying, “I don’t believe in guns.” Okay, did it make them disappear?
The bottom line is, as Christians, we must achieve a healthy balance between our trust in data and divinity. Regular self-examination should tell us whether we are resting our faith, trust and hope in God alone (guided by the Church and her Magisterium) and not in research, statistics, data, elemental charts, psychological tests, daily horoscopes, celebrity reports, highly-esteemed journalists, friends or family.
Okay, I’ll get off my soap box. My point here is that, much like the full moon affects a lot of people (just call around to mental hospitals, police stations and homes for the developmentally disabled on a full moon night and ask them how busy they’ve been) and animals have a keen instinct for nature’s activities, why is it difficult to understand that we do not exist and function independently of the universe we occupy? The reality is that planets, gravity, hydrologic systems, topographic features, land and sea elevations and numerous other conditions in our environment affect us in observable and undetectable ways, from conception to death. And weren’t the three wise men who followed the star-like light to Bethlehem known to be astrologers? They didn’t read any daily horoscopes, but they spent a lot of time observing the activity of the stars, planets and so forth, didn’t they?
I’m not defending the use of daily horoscopes. As I said before, depending on and trusting in anything before God is sin. However, we don’t need to throw out the baby with the bath water because we fear that horoscopes invite the devil into our lives. He’s already there if you practice or condone anything contrary to purity and chastity of mind, body, and spirit.
What do you make of the fact that after about five or ten interactions with people I’ve met, I can “guess” correctly what month they were born in? Horoscopes don’t create or define our destiny; that’s the entertainment factor that newspapers created to make money. But what I’ve noticed from years of observation is that there are basic drives we’re born with and we each have dominant drives that color our perception of ourselves and the world, and our behaviors are shaped by those perceptions. That’s it in a nutshell. And it’s those basic drives that alert me to the month a person was born in. It may not be planets that effect similarities in people born in certain months. It might be the brands of gripe water that mothers are fed their babies. Whatever the contributors, I observe similarities that I can correctly attribute to the month in which a person was born.
As often as I hear people say that they “don’t believe in” horoscopes, I say, what’s to believe or not believe? It’s either reality or it isn’t. If I can consistently ascertain when someone was born by their manner and style, the presence or absence of certain personality traits, temperaments and values, what is there to argue about? It’s like saying, “I don’t believe in guns.” Okay, did it make them disappear?
The bottom line is, as Christians, we must achieve a healthy balance between our trust in data and divinity. Regular self-examination should tell us whether we are resting our faith, trust and hope in God alone (guided by the Church and her Magisterium) and not in research, statistics, data, elemental charts, psychological tests, daily horoscopes, celebrity reports, highly-esteemed journalists, friends or family.
B
benedicter
Guest
There is a difference between deeds and actions in our lives caused by sin which is always with us as humans to a slight degree or to a great degree depending. This is different to us being influenced by esoteric acts and influences which is opening ourselves out to spirituality not from God. We are always free within ourselves to turn from sin based within the human moral ground. It is not possible to free ourselves from esoteric spiritual influences and worse they increase the likelihood of more moral sin in your life. This is a black and white issue spiritually. You can’t worship good and play with the enemy. For me casual interest in astrology etc is like spiritual pornography. If esoteric spirituality gets a hold on your life it will destroy it, if not here in the next life.
I had a casual interest in astrology as a teenager, also I would visit the tarot reader occasionally. Once or twice my friends and I played with a ouiji board. Later when I was a young mother I went to a night class out of interest to study astrology. Just for fun. I learned to create and read charts. No problem!! I had stopped going to Mass by the way. 15 years later I am successful in my work a bit stressed as a working mother. So more visits to the Tarot reader. More stress. Much more sin now by the way and we are getting really seriously in trouble. More money is coming, more sin, more stress, much more success then bingo I have a phone tarot reader. More contact much more frequency. I can’t stop. My husband hates it but I can’t stop. Costs a lot of money too. Though I can afford it being very successful in my stressful line of work.
One day through the death of an aunt we ‘accidentally’ end up back in Church, not Catholic but charismatic type Anglican (Episcopalian in the USA). My husband is a cradle Anglican. After two months I know I need Jesus and need to clean up my life. Problem - I can’t. This thing has a hold on me. I try on my own, no good, I reduce the Tarot contact but can’t erase it. Shortly after I am in my kitchen, I say to God, help me, I can’t do this you have to do this for me. Immediately it was gone. No lightening bolts, just I knew it had gone. I was so thrilled, I grabbed everything in the house that had anything to do with the occult and burnt it in the fireplace. Since that moment three years ago I have been free of it. I have a revulsion of anything to do with the occult even ‘innocent’ star sign guessing or magazine columns.
If you are in anyway attracted to the occult go and confess it, even if the priest makes light of it deal to it. Deal to it wherever you see it. Pray for people involved in it.
The end of the story…I came back to the Catholic Church, my husband followed four months later and is now a Catholic. God has changed our lives dramatically.
I pray for an hour almost daily now having had the help of a wonderful Spiritual Director and I believe me God’s providence is more powerful and reassuring than anything new age or ‘spiritual’.
The biggest effect of the occult in my life was ANXIETY. Stay awy from it, don’t rationalise it, compartmentalise it.
For any readers interest obtain a copy of the DVD ‘Interview With An Exorcist’ from Ignatius Press. This provides a full overview including how we open ourselves up to ‘influences’ - these are not the same as gambling, drinking (bad as they are). These ‘influences’ are purely spiritual - or should I say evil. Evil and sin are not the same thing though they feed each other.
I had a casual interest in astrology as a teenager, also I would visit the tarot reader occasionally. Once or twice my friends and I played with a ouiji board. Later when I was a young mother I went to a night class out of interest to study astrology. Just for fun. I learned to create and read charts. No problem!! I had stopped going to Mass by the way. 15 years later I am successful in my work a bit stressed as a working mother. So more visits to the Tarot reader. More stress. Much more sin now by the way and we are getting really seriously in trouble. More money is coming, more sin, more stress, much more success then bingo I have a phone tarot reader. More contact much more frequency. I can’t stop. My husband hates it but I can’t stop. Costs a lot of money too. Though I can afford it being very successful in my stressful line of work.
One day through the death of an aunt we ‘accidentally’ end up back in Church, not Catholic but charismatic type Anglican (Episcopalian in the USA). My husband is a cradle Anglican. After two months I know I need Jesus and need to clean up my life. Problem - I can’t. This thing has a hold on me. I try on my own, no good, I reduce the Tarot contact but can’t erase it. Shortly after I am in my kitchen, I say to God, help me, I can’t do this you have to do this for me. Immediately it was gone. No lightening bolts, just I knew it had gone. I was so thrilled, I grabbed everything in the house that had anything to do with the occult and burnt it in the fireplace. Since that moment three years ago I have been free of it. I have a revulsion of anything to do with the occult even ‘innocent’ star sign guessing or magazine columns.
If you are in anyway attracted to the occult go and confess it, even if the priest makes light of it deal to it. Deal to it wherever you see it. Pray for people involved in it.
The end of the story…I came back to the Catholic Church, my husband followed four months later and is now a Catholic. God has changed our lives dramatically.
I pray for an hour almost daily now having had the help of a wonderful Spiritual Director and I believe me God’s providence is more powerful and reassuring than anything new age or ‘spiritual’.
The biggest effect of the occult in my life was ANXIETY. Stay awy from it, don’t rationalise it, compartmentalise it.
For any readers interest obtain a copy of the DVD ‘Interview With An Exorcist’ from Ignatius Press. This provides a full overview including how we open ourselves up to ‘influences’ - these are not the same as gambling, drinking (bad as they are). These ‘influences’ are purely spiritual - or should I say evil. Evil and sin are not the same thing though they feed each other.
V
vinessa
Guest
I have a different view of astrology. My understanding is this.
First, the patterns of the sky don’t cause, or determine anything. God runs the show, and we always have free will. The idea of astrology as determinate, or predictive, is ancient superstition. And the Bible is right to condemn it in the several places that it does because in context, in those stories, the astrologers were helping a selfish king or general try to get “one up” on God, and figure out things in advance so they would have an advantage – in war, with harvests, etc.
Later however we find that God blessed and inspired star-studiers (magi) and brought them to Christ. There is nothing that says they were condemned or exhorted to give up astrology after leaving their gifts. Presumably because their hearts were in the right place and their purposes were not selfish.
Modern astrology, apart from silly horoscopes, sees itself not as predictive, and not as a science. It’s more like a mandala on which to meditate, or Zen calligraphy – an art form intended to engage a person, personally, with the questions of life. As a teacher I had once says, “the stars don’t give us answers, they ask us questions.” And of course the stars don’t actually ASK the questions. But the idea is that there are “realms” of life questions, that follow a particular pattern, and which match our natural developmental process – Aries representing one “bucket” of questions, Virgo another, and so forth. And maybe we can find value dancing with those questions.
The most important thing is that the symbols DO NOTHING, and considering them is just one of many ways to self-reflect. I read a statistical study last year that concluded that the reason millions of people read the newspaper horoscopes daily was twofold. No. 1, it was a time, however brief each day, that the reader would connect inside, with life and larger questions, out of a normally busy and achievement-object-oriented existence. And No. 2, it gave them a sense of specialness and meaning because they could look at “their” horoscope and feel it to be more fine-tuned and personal than the “one size fits all” advice we typically receive.
So it’s a little bit more like a game, or an art, for meditating or stretching inside. And again, to think that there are answers in the stars is simply wrong. You always have to take responsibility for your choices, and God is always in charge. But, the theory says, Libras might find it useful (or not) to engage with and reflect on a particular set of questions – somewhat different from the set of questions a Capricorn might engage with. But choice is never abrogated, and what each individual DOES as a result of reflecting on those questions is wide open.
Re the scientific comment about the precession of the equinoxes, that is correct. However, western astrology doesn’t rely on the actual position of the constellations. Western astrology is based on our annual seasons, starting with Aries on the spring equinox (March 21st), and dividing our yearly path into 12 “segments”. So Capricorn is always in the winter, Cancer is always in the summer. The names are just what they WERE named back then.
Astrology is not that different from any “proposed” typology system, for example the Enneagram, the Medieval humours, or the Myers-Briggs designations. If you’ve ever taken Myers-Briggs, it’s quite popular and also quite useful. You know that the theory is that you are perhaps an Extrovert Feeling person, who is in a relationship with an Extrovert Judgemental person (or whatever)… and to stop there, with just the “definition” or label isn’t useful. The point is, what are the possible strengths that *could be *enhanced in a relationship between these two types, and what possible friction points might be encountered? We exercise our psychology and grow from questions like these.
None of these type-systems say what IS – or if they do, it’s an abuse. They just propose ideas and encourage reflection. If they carry no meaning for a particular person, no problem. But personally, when I consider the majesty of creation, and the patterns and parallels between things – a Nautilus shell is like an oak tree is like a pineapple is like my inner ear, say – I find it not surprising that humans would resonate with a (lets call it) meditative art that is related to nature, and planetary cycles and seasons.
However, as those selfish kings and generals in the Bible eventually learned, a meditative art is not the same thing as God. We do always need to keep our hearts straight and our priorities clear. There’s no “power” in astrology, the power is all God’s and we belong to Him.
First, the patterns of the sky don’t cause, or determine anything. God runs the show, and we always have free will. The idea of astrology as determinate, or predictive, is ancient superstition. And the Bible is right to condemn it in the several places that it does because in context, in those stories, the astrologers were helping a selfish king or general try to get “one up” on God, and figure out things in advance so they would have an advantage – in war, with harvests, etc.
Later however we find that God blessed and inspired star-studiers (magi) and brought them to Christ. There is nothing that says they were condemned or exhorted to give up astrology after leaving their gifts. Presumably because their hearts were in the right place and their purposes were not selfish.
Modern astrology, apart from silly horoscopes, sees itself not as predictive, and not as a science. It’s more like a mandala on which to meditate, or Zen calligraphy – an art form intended to engage a person, personally, with the questions of life. As a teacher I had once says, “the stars don’t give us answers, they ask us questions.” And of course the stars don’t actually ASK the questions. But the idea is that there are “realms” of life questions, that follow a particular pattern, and which match our natural developmental process – Aries representing one “bucket” of questions, Virgo another, and so forth. And maybe we can find value dancing with those questions.
The most important thing is that the symbols DO NOTHING, and considering them is just one of many ways to self-reflect. I read a statistical study last year that concluded that the reason millions of people read the newspaper horoscopes daily was twofold. No. 1, it was a time, however brief each day, that the reader would connect inside, with life and larger questions, out of a normally busy and achievement-object-oriented existence. And No. 2, it gave them a sense of specialness and meaning because they could look at “their” horoscope and feel it to be more fine-tuned and personal than the “one size fits all” advice we typically receive.
So it’s a little bit more like a game, or an art, for meditating or stretching inside. And again, to think that there are answers in the stars is simply wrong. You always have to take responsibility for your choices, and God is always in charge. But, the theory says, Libras might find it useful (or not) to engage with and reflect on a particular set of questions – somewhat different from the set of questions a Capricorn might engage with. But choice is never abrogated, and what each individual DOES as a result of reflecting on those questions is wide open.
Re the scientific comment about the precession of the equinoxes, that is correct. However, western astrology doesn’t rely on the actual position of the constellations. Western astrology is based on our annual seasons, starting with Aries on the spring equinox (March 21st), and dividing our yearly path into 12 “segments”. So Capricorn is always in the winter, Cancer is always in the summer. The names are just what they WERE named back then.
Astrology is not that different from any “proposed” typology system, for example the Enneagram, the Medieval humours, or the Myers-Briggs designations. If you’ve ever taken Myers-Briggs, it’s quite popular and also quite useful. You know that the theory is that you are perhaps an Extrovert Feeling person, who is in a relationship with an Extrovert Judgemental person (or whatever)… and to stop there, with just the “definition” or label isn’t useful. The point is, what are the possible strengths that *could be *enhanced in a relationship between these two types, and what possible friction points might be encountered? We exercise our psychology and grow from questions like these.
None of these type-systems say what IS – or if they do, it’s an abuse. They just propose ideas and encourage reflection. If they carry no meaning for a particular person, no problem. But personally, when I consider the majesty of creation, and the patterns and parallels between things – a Nautilus shell is like an oak tree is like a pineapple is like my inner ear, say – I find it not surprising that humans would resonate with a (lets call it) meditative art that is related to nature, and planetary cycles and seasons.
However, as those selfish kings and generals in the Bible eventually learned, a meditative art is not the same thing as God. We do always need to keep our hearts straight and our priorities clear. There’s no “power” in astrology, the power is all God’s and we belong to Him.
B
benedicter
Guest
There is a power of evil in the spiritual realm. It is wise to avoid anything which leads or feeds any interest in alternative spirituality. We don’t need Enneagram, we need to be focused on Christ not ourselves. It is who we are in Christ not who we are in the Enneagram, the Astrology Chart. Whatever the Magi were doing or who they were says nothing about the influence of the occult in peoples lives today. It polutes people spiritually. As I said from a Catholic perspective all these ‘enlightenments’ are just spiritual pornography. You can’t love God and play with the enemy.
J
jules208
Guest
I understand that there are people who have proclivities toward addictions and addictive behavior, which is why I stressed that people should avoid any of those “entertainment purposes only” tabloids with horoscopes and all the related occultic practices. I have never been fascinated by any of those occult practices that you described. Call it preferring reason over magic or my preference for the awesome power of Almighty God versus the weak promises of the devil, but I have no temptations toward addictive behaviors or desires to toy with the occult (I often wonder how I haven’t become an alcoholic, considering my family’s dysfunctions!). I don’t even drink tea, coffee or soda on a regular basis!
The occult practices you mentioned sound much more like addictive personality traits. And you’re right, for many many people, they are overwhelmed by the “control” they feel they gain over their lives when they start toying with tarot cards, palm readers and the like. For that reason, I discourage anyone from looking to horoscopes for decision-making and guidance.
I’m not sure that I’m quick to believe that occult addictions carry a higher risk for spiritual oppression and baggage than other forms of addiction. When we are easy prey to addictions (be it pornography, heroine, ouija boards or promiscuity), the devil will use any opportunity to attack us so that we fall (back) into addictive sin and spiritual death. I know men and women who are under heavy spiritual oppression as they struggle and can’t seem to overcome alcoholism and promiscuity. I see the same symptoms of defensiveness, rationalization, depression, aggression and denial in them that I would see in someone who is heavily involved in the occult. We should run to the Confessional for all of our sins and weaknesses, not especially for any dabbling we’ve done with the occult.
My point again is that if we know our weaknesses, we should avoid every occasion that may tempt us to sin in that area. In this age in history when so many structures in society have done away with moral instruction and the recognition of God’s presence in the world, we must be vigilant to avoid the temptation to want to control our environment and our lives through science, magic, witchcraft, cults and other false gods.
I’m not sure how the occult came to be known as worse in the sense that spiritual oppression lingers long after one ceases the practice. Has anyone observed a greater number of demons lurking around people who used to practice the occult? I sound facetious but I’m curious to know where, or why, the practice is believed to evoke greater evil in one’s life.
Nevertheless, I’m thankful to hear that you are no longer controlled by your addictions to the occult. God blesses some people with immediate healing and for others, it is sadly the case that they may need to hit bottom before they surrender to God.
The occult practices you mentioned sound much more like addictive personality traits. And you’re right, for many many people, they are overwhelmed by the “control” they feel they gain over their lives when they start toying with tarot cards, palm readers and the like. For that reason, I discourage anyone from looking to horoscopes for decision-making and guidance.
I’m not sure that I’m quick to believe that occult addictions carry a higher risk for spiritual oppression and baggage than other forms of addiction. When we are easy prey to addictions (be it pornography, heroine, ouija boards or promiscuity), the devil will use any opportunity to attack us so that we fall (back) into addictive sin and spiritual death. I know men and women who are under heavy spiritual oppression as they struggle and can’t seem to overcome alcoholism and promiscuity. I see the same symptoms of defensiveness, rationalization, depression, aggression and denial in them that I would see in someone who is heavily involved in the occult. We should run to the Confessional for all of our sins and weaknesses, not especially for any dabbling we’ve done with the occult.
My point again is that if we know our weaknesses, we should avoid every occasion that may tempt us to sin in that area. In this age in history when so many structures in society have done away with moral instruction and the recognition of God’s presence in the world, we must be vigilant to avoid the temptation to want to control our environment and our lives through science, magic, witchcraft, cults and other false gods.
I’m not sure how the occult came to be known as worse in the sense that spiritual oppression lingers long after one ceases the practice. Has anyone observed a greater number of demons lurking around people who used to practice the occult? I sound facetious but I’m curious to know where, or why, the practice is believed to evoke greater evil in one’s life.
Nevertheless, I’m thankful to hear that you are no longer controlled by your addictions to the occult. God blesses some people with immediate healing and for others, it is sadly the case that they may need to hit bottom before they surrender to God.
V
vinessa
Guest
Added note: Benedictgal, I read your story, and it reminded me of another woman I know who was very much into astrology, in fact had trained in it and become professional. Her identity and sense of personal power came from the “special knowledge” she could impart to the clients who came to her for advice. She then had a sudden “evangelical awakening” and is now one of the most judgmental, Pharisaical “inquisitors” you can imagine!
I guess to me this is somewhat like the question of moderate wine-drinking vs. alcoholism. Some people can a glass of wine, or part of it, and put it down and walk away. Others have to down the whole glass and then seek more.
I agree with you that the esoteric or meditative arts can be alluring, tempting one to “power”. Like the professional astrologer above who felt “powerful” because of her “special insight”. But using the wine analogy, is the problem in the wine, or is it in the person? Should we ban alcohol and bring back temperance? Or are we called to be moderate and temperate in ourselves?
I’m actually in a weird position right now, in that I feel somewhat like the magi. I am (or was) interested enough in astrology as an interesting “type system” to have studied it fairly deeply from a counseling perspective (like Jung). But I never sought it for power or “answers”. Even my teacher used to say, “consciousness trumps the cosmos” – meaning you, and your relationship to God and Christ’s Body, is ultimate. The “pattern matches” you might use to exercise your psyche are optional.
So now here I am in RCIA – having been raised Protestant (loads of Bible study), and having explored and considered a huge variety of other spiritualities, from Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, new age, and shamanism. I’ll tell you what, a CATHOLIC church is the LAST place I ever expected to be! But here I am, filled with joy and a sense of homecoming, only wanting to serve God. And my honest heart, or the still small voice inside, has not condemned my past involvement with astrology. My interest in it is naturally fading – I have other spiritual arts to learn now like the Rosary!
But God does not appear to be indicting me for this past interest – in fact it could be argued that working with those questions (and others) is what has opened me up ENOUGH to let Catholicism shine in (rather than remaining psychologically ignorant and so good prey for Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and the like)
I have also asked and submitted it to Him, asking for clarity. All I get back is peace about it. It seems to me that the problem isn’t in the activity, it’s in the heart or the attitude (magi seeking God vs. selfish kings wanting special advantage).
And for sure Satan is alive in this world. For some he is in wine, for others in astrology – he uses what he can. Some people also believe his favorite place to hide out and do his dirty work is in the Church, because most people think it’s “safe”. And of course the Pharisees obeyed all the rules, and never thought of themselves as “devils”…
Just thoughts.
And I love your shares! I learn so much from them. Thank you.
I guess to me this is somewhat like the question of moderate wine-drinking vs. alcoholism. Some people can a glass of wine, or part of it, and put it down and walk away. Others have to down the whole glass and then seek more.
I agree with you that the esoteric or meditative arts can be alluring, tempting one to “power”. Like the professional astrologer above who felt “powerful” because of her “special insight”. But using the wine analogy, is the problem in the wine, or is it in the person? Should we ban alcohol and bring back temperance? Or are we called to be moderate and temperate in ourselves?
I’m actually in a weird position right now, in that I feel somewhat like the magi. I am (or was) interested enough in astrology as an interesting “type system” to have studied it fairly deeply from a counseling perspective (like Jung). But I never sought it for power or “answers”. Even my teacher used to say, “consciousness trumps the cosmos” – meaning you, and your relationship to God and Christ’s Body, is ultimate. The “pattern matches” you might use to exercise your psyche are optional.
So now here I am in RCIA – having been raised Protestant (loads of Bible study), and having explored and considered a huge variety of other spiritualities, from Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, new age, and shamanism. I’ll tell you what, a CATHOLIC church is the LAST place I ever expected to be! But here I am, filled with joy and a sense of homecoming, only wanting to serve God. And my honest heart, or the still small voice inside, has not condemned my past involvement with astrology. My interest in it is naturally fading – I have other spiritual arts to learn now like the Rosary!
But God does not appear to be indicting me for this past interest – in fact it could be argued that working with those questions (and others) is what has opened me up ENOUGH to let Catholicism shine in (rather than remaining psychologically ignorant and so good prey for Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and the like)I have also asked and submitted it to Him, asking for clarity. All I get back is peace about it. It seems to me that the problem isn’t in the activity, it’s in the heart or the attitude (magi seeking God vs. selfish kings wanting special advantage).
And for sure Satan is alive in this world. For some he is in wine, for others in astrology – he uses what he can. Some people also believe his favorite place to hide out and do his dirty work is in the Church, because most people think it’s “safe”. And of course the Pharisees obeyed all the rules, and never thought of themselves as “devils”…
Just thoughts.
And I love your shares! I learn so much from them. Thank you.
B
benedicter
Guest
I think you are still missing the point I make that addictive behaviours like drinking, gambling etc are grounded in our human weakness, predisposition etc. The occult practices are different in that people are opened up spiritually to things that we do not understand. In answer to your question “Has anyone observed a greater number of demons lurking around people who used (are still practising that is) to practice the occult?” The answer is probably yes in terms of influence and open to the possibility of possession. I have just seen “Interview with an Exorcist” a DVD put out by Ignatius Press. The top Spanish Excorcist (has a PHD in the topic) says so. He separates psycological and psychiatric conditions from occult influences.
So your understanding of addictions and the occult lining up together in the weakness of the addiction prone individual wouldn’t stack up in his regard.
I also have had a productive life and have never exhibited any addictive or obsessional behaviours. In all other respects my life has been well ordered. The events of this occult influence through tarot stands alone but it led to other things.
How do we explain Jesus casting out demons?
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