Silencing of Traditional Bishops by Pope Francis

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That’s not all of what Francis said about the death penalty. He said it was inadmissible, because it was an attack on the dignity and inviolability of humans. Was this not the case in the 16th century?
 
Francis has spoken, certainly.

Does he call capital punishment intrinsically evil, the same language used for abortion and murder?

No. He simply calls it ‘inadmissible’, a term that, until a few months ago, I have never heard used in Catholic moral theology.
 
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It doesn’t matter. We are still bound to give at least assent of the will…no?
Its not a matter of infallibility, but rather prudential judgment. At least in my opinion… the revised Catechism text uses the word “inadmissible” rather than “intrinsically evil”. That leads me to believe that the Pope is binding the faithful to oppose the death penalty in the here and now, but not necessarily that it was always an objectively evil act in the past.
 
twf said:
It doesn’t matter. We are still bound to give at least assent of the will…no?
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I’m afraid it does. Catholics are bound to give assent of will when the Pope speaks ex cathedra, but not when it’s not. You don’t have to agree with the Pope on everything. That being said, we still ought to hear and consider what he’s saying. But that’s not the same as simply accepting what he says because he’s the Pope.
 
Fauken said:
That being said, we still ought to hear and consider what he’s saying. But that’s not the same as simply accepting what he says because he’s the Pope.
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The Catechism is the Ordinary Magisterium of the Church…

It can’t be discarded because it disturbs your American Conservative political sensibilities.
 
I’m not “discarding” it becuase it disturbs my “American Convservative political sensibilities.”
 
ChristMyLife said:
The Catechism is the Ordinary Magisterium of the Church…
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Where in the CCC does it say it’s the Ordinary Magisterium?
ChristMyLife said:
It can’t be discarded because it disturbs your American Conservative political sensibilities.
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How charitable of you. And a false assumption. I don’t care for the death penalty. I agree that it shouldn’t be used as often as it is now. I agree that it should be used for the rarest of cases.
 
Calling @semper_catholicus a Protestant because he doesn’t treat the revision to the Catechism like you think it should is not simply “harsh”, it’s rude and offensive. Who are you to decide if he’s Catholic or Protestant?
 
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Can the pope change Church teaching? Can Church teaching change in a way that contradicts itself?
 
ChristMyLife said:
If you’re going to openly, publicly, explicitly protest against the Church and what she teaches, why wouldn’t I call you a protestant?
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Priestly celibacy is in the Catechism. Is that now dogma because the Catechism says priests (Latin rite ones anyway) must be celibate?

The CCC is not the Ordinary Magisterium. Things are not made dogma because they’re written in it.
 
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semper_catholicus said:
Can the pope change Church teaching? Can Church teaching change in a way that contradicts itself?
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In faith and morals, no.

But with regards to how she interacts with the world, yes.

The Church teaching hasn’t changed - the circumstances the Barque of Peter is sailing in have.

The Church doesn’t all of a sudden teach that the death penalty is an intrinsic evil which was always wrong.

The Church teaches that in light of the circumstances of the modern world, the death penalty is inadmissible as a just punishment, and so as part of a truly pro-life platform, faithful Catholics ought to work toward the abolition of it.
 
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Inherent human dignity doesn’t have anything to do with morals?
 
Fauken said:
Priestly celibacy is in the Catechism. Is that now dogma because the Catechism says priests (Latin rite ones anyway) must be celibate?
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The CCC itself answers that.

“In the Eastern Churches a different discipline has been in force for many centuries: while bishops are chosen solely from among celibates, married men can be ordained as deacons and priests. This practice has long been considered legitimate; these priests exercise a fruitful ministry within their communities.73 Moreover, priestly celibacy is held in great honor in the Eastern Churches and many priests have freely chosen it for the sake of the Kingdom of God. In the East as in the West a man who has already received the sacrament of Holy Orders can no longer marry.”

Oh and the CCC is a document of the Magisteroum of the Church.

The USCCB explicitly says the CCC is Ordinary Magisterium.

The Catechism is part of the Church’s ordinary teaching authority. Pope John Paul II placed his apostolic authority behind it. Its doctrinal authority is proper to the papal Magisterium. In Fidei Depositum John Paul II termed the Catechism a “sure norm for teaching the faith” and “a sure and authentic reference text.” He asked “the Church’s pastors and the Christian faithful to receive this catechism in a spirit of communion and to use it assiduously in fulfilling their mission of proclaiming the faith and calling people to the Gospel life.”

http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-te...bout-the-catechism-of-the-catholic-church.cfm

You have free will… It’s your prerogative if you want to disregaed the Magisterium of the Church. But please, let’s not pretend that to do such a thing is either Catholic, or im this particular case pro life. It is neither.
 
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AND, hold on for a minute. The Roman Catechism says that for the state not to execute notorious criminals is a violation of the fifth commandment.

How is it, then, that capital punishment “anti-life?”
 
It also says “obedience to this Commandment which prohibits murder. The end of the Commandment is the preservation and security of human life. Now the punishments inflicted by the civil authority, which is the legitimate avenger of crime, naturally tend to this end, since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence. Hence these words of David: In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land, that I might cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord.”

Also, the Roman Catechism was written for the Church during the 16th century - very different circumstances.

Also, it’s debatable whether the Roman Catechism is Ordinary Magisterium or not.

Lastly, do you honestly think the Holy Father would reform a section of the Catechism without consulting his best scholars and historians? Do you honestly think our Holy Father Francis would wantonly promulgate the new CCC paragraph without carefully considering prior documents?
 
Well, there is room for questions on these things, considering that his teaching seems to contradict 2 millenia of previous teaching.
 
JM3 said:
LG 22…The pope’s power of primacy over all, both pastors and faithful, remains whole and intact. In virtue of his office, that is as Vicar of Christ and pastor of the whole Church, the Roman Pontiff has full, supreme and universal power over the Church. And he is always free to exercise this power.
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Yeah, what? Where does this say that a Pope should divide the Church between liberal and conservative?
 
ChristMyLife said:
The CCC itself answers that.

“In the Eastern Churches a different discipline has been in force for many centuries: while bishops are chosen solely from among celibates, married men can be ordained as deacons and priests. This practice has long been considered legitimate; these priests exercise a fruitful ministry within their communities.73 Moreover, priestly celibacy is held in great honor in the Eastern Churches and many priests have freely chosen it for the sake of the Kingdom of God. In the East as in the West a man who has already received the sacrament of Holy Orders can no longer marry.”
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That’s why I specified Latin rite ones.
ChristMyLife said:
The Catechism is part of the Church’s ordinary teaching authority. Pope John Paul II placed his apostolic authority behind it. Its doctrinal authority is proper to the papal Magisterium. In Fidei Depositum John Paul II termed the Catechism a “sure norm for teaching the faith” and “a sure and authentic reference text.” He asked “the Church’s pastors and th
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You own quote says that it’s a teaching authority, not a dogmatic one as the Ordinary Magisterium is. It was meant to teach, not proclaim dogma. It contains doctrines and dogmas, certainly, but they’re not so just because they’re in the CCC, and as shown with priestly celibacy, not everything in it is doctrine nor dogma.
ChristMyLife said:
You have free will… It’s your prerogative if you want to disregaed the Magisterium of the Church. But please, let’s not pretend that to do such a thing is either Catholic, or im this particular case pro life. It is neither.
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I’ll leave my Catholicity to the actual Magisterium, not your interpretation of it.
 
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The catechism disagrees.

It groups all these issues together in one section -

You might wanna read: PART THREE
LIFE IN CHRIST

SECTION TWO
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS

CHAPTER TWO
“YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF”

ARTICLE 5
THE FIFTH COMMANDMENT

CCC 2258 - 2330.
 
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