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LRThunder
Guest
Because the Congress tends to have speakers that…let’s just say aren’t heavy on orthodox, faithful Catholic teachings from my understanding.
Silly, meaningless, inaccurate, overused, dumbed-down, erroneous, or self-contradictory buzzwords and phrases
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benedictgal
Guest
Unfortunately, the stuff that I’ve highlighted is the questionable material that tends to filter down to parishes. Just because [edited by Moderator] allows strange things to happen in the Mass does not justify bringing these innovations into the Holy Sacrifice. Recall, too, that “liturgical dance” also happens at these conferences.
If Los Angeles wants to bring in strange things, they should confine them to the local level and not spread these bad innovations throughout the country.
Unfortunately, I’ve experienced the filtering down in parts of my diocese thanks to these LA Congresses. Priests see this stuff happening in LA and want to bring it home.
The Labirynth is also another problem. This does not have any basis in Catholic spirituality. It is more of a New Age thing that has crept in, again, thanks to the LA Congress.
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JReducation
Guest
I believe it is best to drop the allegations against Cardinal Mahoney or any other prelate of the Church.
CAF rules forbids the following.
Identifying individual parishes, clergy, or hierarchs as “unfaithful to the Magisterium”, guilty of “liturgical abuse”, or otherwise engaged in unacceptable or unpopular practices, based on personal “knowledge” or opinion
JR
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JReducation
Guest
If you’re not sure whether you can or cannot mention something or someone on the threads, go to this link and read Banned Topics Post No. 6
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=17511
JR
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=17511
JR
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PaixGioiaAmor
Guest
Actually, the labyrinth has a Christian tradition to it.
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jmcrae
Guest
I always thought the Labyrinth came from the spirituality of St. Hildegaard of Bingham?
It’s definitely Christian/Catholic in origin; it’s not New Age, by any means. (No other religion has the Labyrinth, meaning that it isn’t part of a melding together of religious traditions, which is what New Age is about.)
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JReducation
Guest
I believe there are some things highlighted in Benedictgal’s post by mistake.
Again, Francis of Assisi took Gregorian chant out of his friaries. But he wrote many hymns in Italian using Italian music that the friars and the faithful who worshipped at the friary would use. He also took out the Latin sermon, leaving only the Latin prayers in the mass. He was the first to insist that the sermon be in the language of the people and that the songs be in Italian and that the friars recite the psalms, not chant them to avoid having to exclude anyone who could not chant, because real Gregorian chant is very elaborate and very difficult. Ask any Benedictine. This is their music.
In fact, the Carthusians (a branch of the Benedictines) do not admit anyone to their order who cannot perform complicated forms of Gregorian chant. Being able to perform Gregorian chant is one of the signs of a vocation to their order. If God has not given you this gift, then he is not calling you to the Benedictine life.
People like Francis and Mother Teresa included local music in their worship. The Missionaries of Charity use many Indian forms of music in their worship.
The Missionaries of the Poor, founded in Jamaica, use Calypso music in their monasteries and the parishes they run. Their founder wanted them to preserve their music and use it to praise God. They have beautiful liturgical music.
Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross wrote songs and hymns in Spanish which the Hispanic community still sings today.
JR
This was introduced into Catholic monasticism by St. Hildegard who was Abbes of Bingham. St. Hildegard is right up there with Catherine of Siena and Teresa of Avila as one of the great female theologians of the Church. She also introduced a form of music to replace Gregorian chant in her abbey following the example of St. Francis of Assisi who prohibited Gregorian chant among the Franciscans. He introduced Italian music instead and Italian poetry into the friary. The famous Canticle of Brother Sun is not only a prayer to be said by the friars, but it was literally the first poem ever written in Italian. The Labyrinth form of contemplation is very orthodox and very old, almost 800-years old.
Very orthodox and the official prayer of the Franciscan Order. It has been around since 1221. Now the official prayer of the Missionaries of Charity. According to Francis, it was always to be recited in the language of the friars, not Latin. It’s oldest version is in Italian and it is considered a writing in the area of Theology of Creation.
This is the correct English translation for Lauds. Many breviaries also call it Morning Prayer, which is an inaccurate translation of Lauds. Lauds comes from the Latin, Laudare, to praise. It was recited by Franciscans and chanted by the rest of the Church early in the morning, usually before sunrise. That’s how it came to be called Morning Praise in English.
A Benedictine tradition that is almost 1800 years old, there are many Benedictine, Franciscan, Carmelite and Dominican communities that were founded on this form of worship. They are called communities of Perpetual Adoration. This is where the tradition of the 40-hours of adoration comes from, also this where the Church gets the custom of adoration on Holy Thursday night, from the Benedictine Order. This was their custom, long before it became the custom of the universal Church.
I’m not sure what is objectionable about this one.
Catholic music has many different roots. Gregorian chant is only one kind and common only in the Western Church. However, there are many kinds of Catholic music that have been in use for centuries.
Again, Francis of Assisi took Gregorian chant out of his friaries. But he wrote many hymns in Italian using Italian music that the friars and the faithful who worshipped at the friary would use. He also took out the Latin sermon, leaving only the Latin prayers in the mass. He was the first to insist that the sermon be in the language of the people and that the songs be in Italian and that the friars recite the psalms, not chant them to avoid having to exclude anyone who could not chant, because real Gregorian chant is very elaborate and very difficult. Ask any Benedictine. This is their music.
In fact, the Carthusians (a branch of the Benedictines) do not admit anyone to their order who cannot perform complicated forms of Gregorian chant. Being able to perform Gregorian chant is one of the signs of a vocation to their order. If God has not given you this gift, then he is not calling you to the Benedictine life.
People like Francis and Mother Teresa included local music in their worship. The Missionaries of Charity use many Indian forms of music in their worship.
The Missionaries of the Poor, founded in Jamaica, use Calypso music in their monasteries and the parishes they run. Their founder wanted them to preserve their music and use it to praise God. They have beautiful liturgical music.
Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross wrote songs and hymns in Spanish which the Hispanic community still sings today.
JR
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anamchara
Guest
Ok, I said I’d come back and add some more. 
Along with not liking the terms I posted before “horizontal/Vertical worship, happy clappy” I’ll add “innovations” and many peoples favorite in here “kumbaya music”
All of these are seriously over used and normally used for the soul purpose of making judgments on others form of worship as if it’s not Catholic enough. 
Again, just giving a different take on things.
Along with not liking the terms I posted before “horizontal/Vertical worship, happy clappy” I’ll add “innovations” and many peoples favorite in here “kumbaya music”
All of these are seriously over used and normally used for the soul purpose of making judgments on others form of worship as if it’s not Catholic enough.
Again, just giving a different take on things.
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anamchara
Guest
Awesome job JR. I didn’t know all this.
The most beautiful Labyrinth I’ve seen so far is here: gracecathedral.org/labyrinth/ It’s in San Francisco. The Cathedral is absolutely beautiful.
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CuriousInIL
Guest
In our parish, the alter servers (both male and female) wear albs so that the congregation does not have to deal with inappropriate clothing choices. IMO it is more reverant.
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Guitar
Guest
St Francis is particularly associated with *lauda *which (from my crash course prior to presenting a performance on the lives of St Francis & St Claire with some actors) are non-liturgical devotional songs in the vernacular. We performed at least two examples and on the basis of what I saw in my research, they are shorter, simpler and more “directly expressive” (for want of a better term) than much Gregorian chant. From increasingly-vague memory, the Canticle of Brother Sun is a lauda but we have no surviving music for it. Must go back and re-read all my notes!
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JReducation
Guest
To the best of my knowledge, Francis never wrote music for the Canticle of Brother Sun, because he dictated it at the end of his life, the year before he died. By that time he was disabled. There is music to it, but not composed by Francis.
Also, what you said about the laudae is accurate. They were not considered liturgical, because they were not part of the tradition of sacred music. However, they were then and still are often used in Franciscan celebrations of the liturgy, especially the Liturgy of the Hours. Because the Psalms in the Liturgy of the Hours are to be chanted. But since Francis forbade that in his foundation, they had no music when they prayed the Divine Office. They started to use many of the Laudae (plural for Lauda).
Ther are many that we use in Catholic liturgy and no one knows that they come from this history. One of them is the Queen of Heaven rejoice Alleluiah, He has risen as he said, Alleluiah. It was written by Francis, sung in Italian at the end of the liturgy during the Easter Season, instead of the Hail Mary which was part of the Tridentine mass. It was later translated into Latin so that it could be uesed outside of Italy. But in Italy it was always sung in Italian to an Italian form of music. In Franciscan houses it is sung in modern languages.
JR
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japhy
Guest
Because we are sent from Mass on a mission (cf. Matthew 28:18-19): we are sent to evangelize.
But many things are liturgy; only one thing is the Mass. And as far as calling it “liturgy”, remember that the tradition in the Eastern Church is to call it the Divine Liturgy: it is the work of God above and before it is the work of the people.
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Tracyms1974
Guest
Maybe a lot of people probably don’t know that. Shoot, I didn’t. No, I take that back. My priest said that laity are extraordinary ministers, but I think it
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Tracyms1974
Guest
Maybe a lot of people probably don’t know that. Shoot, I didn’t. No, I take that back. My priest said that laity are extraordinary ministers, but I think they are called Eucharistic Ministers for convenience reasons. Perhaps they could call themselves “EMHC’s” for short and then it would still be accurate.
Tracy
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Phemie
Guest
Immensae Caritatis, the original document allowing the laity to distribute Communion, speaks of them as extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion and every document since has reiterated that term. Redemptionis Sacramentum went so far as to specifically note:
Unfortunately, even priests sometimes refer to EMHCs as ‘Eucharistic ministers’ and I’ve had one argue with me that they are now the ordinary ministers of communion by virtue of the lack of priests. He obviously didn’t get the idea of what ‘ordinary’ meant.
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JReducation
Guest
Why would you get into an argument with your priest over jargon?
Everyone knows that people tend to shorten terms that are very long, in any language.
JR
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Phemie
Guest
Said priest stood up in a meeting and yelled at me, after I had noted that asking me to train our EMHCs to give out Communion even if 2 priests had to sit and watch them do so flew in the face of all the documents that had come out of Rome on the matter, that “We have never paid any attention to any document that has come from Rome on that matter and we aren’t about to start now.”Why would you get into an argument with your priest over jargon?
Everyone knows that people tend to shorten terms that are very long, in any language.
JR
With that kind of thinking going on in my parish you bet I’ll argue that EMHCs are not ‘ordinary ministers of Communion’ and that I won’t use the term Eucharistic Minister when referring to them in anything I write when RS specifically says that they aren’t to be referred to in that manner. I resigned from the Liturgy Committee over the matter.
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benedictgal
Guest
Thank you, JR. Actually, I went a little too far in my bolding when it came to contemplative and the other legitimate items. However, when I saw labirynth, it triggered an awful memory of some strange thing they tried to launch in my old parish in Austin. It was bizarre and one of the older priests told the nun who was supporting its inclusion that it smacked of new age.
Interestingly enough, while the claim is made that St. Francis removed Gregorian from his community’s liturgies, the EWTN branch of the Franciscans has somehow brought it back. Just catch the live broadcasts of the Mass from the Our Lady of the Angels Monastery. It’s alive and well over there.
Now, as far as the music is concerned, well, that is problematic. While inculturation is not a bad thing in and of itself, there are some things that may not necessarily be appropriate. As Pope John Paul II notes:
Having watched a replay of the Closing Mass for the Congress on Divine Mercy, I wish that we could follow Rome’s example on how to do things correctly. The music was superb and there was a healthy dose of Latin.
I guess the problem is that we have set the liturgical bar way too low and are more fascinated with noveau-sounding terms that don’t mean anything instead of following the Church’s sacred Tradition.
Interestingly enough, while the claim is made that St. Francis removed Gregorian from his community’s liturgies, the EWTN branch of the Franciscans has somehow brought it back. Just catch the live broadcasts of the Mass from the Our Lady of the Angels Monastery. It’s alive and well over there.
Now, as far as the music is concerned, well, that is problematic. While inculturation is not a bad thing in and of itself, there are some things that may not necessarily be appropriate. As Pope John Paul II notes:
While we can certainly attribute hymns to the saints, we must bear in mind that we are always governed by the documents of the Church. Furthermore, I am most curious about the titles of the hymns composed by Sts. Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross, since there is a notion that the Hispanic community knows and sings them. Unfortunately, most of the hymns found in Flor y Canto (the defacto Spanish hymnal by OCP–no one else has seemed to want to publish something on their own) may or may not contain these songs in their 730-hymn book. Whatever they have as old is marked as “tradicional” (Spanish for Traditional) with no composer or author.
Having watched a replay of the Closing Mass for the Congress on Divine Mercy, I wish that we could follow Rome’s example on how to do things correctly. The music was superb and there was a healthy dose of Latin.
I guess the problem is that we have set the liturgical bar way too low and are more fascinated with noveau-sounding terms that don’t mean anything instead of following the Church’s sacred Tradition.
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JReducation
Guest
I don’t know anything about this. If there is something out there with the same name, it would be good to be careful.
The Poor Clares do not follow the rule of the friars. Pope Leo changed their rule. They follow what is called the Leonine Rule. The reason for the change was to bring them into harmony with the Benedictines, since the Bennies are the model for contemplative life and the Poor Clares are contemplatives. Whoever celebrates the liturgy for Poor Clares follows their tradition, as long as the liturgy is in their house.
This was the big injustice that was committed against the Franciscans at Franciscan University. You must recall when a group of students and faculty asked for TLM and the University declined.
The friars declined, because of obedience to their rule. Since the Unnivesity is not a parish nor is it property of the Church, the Motu Propio did not bind them. The Rule of St. Francis binds them. This is an established agreement between the Church and what are called Excempt Religious Orders. They are excempt because there are many rules that do not apply to them, unless you’re talking about dogma or morals.
What happened was that people did not understand that the friars had to obey their religious superiors and that until they had permission to have a TLM in a Franciscan owned chapel, they could not do it. People didn’t understand, that because a Franciscan is a priest doesn’t mean that all things that other priests can do are allowable to Franciscans. The Franciscan rule is that they are Brothers and the priesthood is a sacramental state, not their way of life.
When people don’t understand these things, because they have not studied them or bothered to ask, everyone gets angry and people get hurt.
In the end, the Franciscan Friars at the University preached a wonderful homily on holy obedience. They took the heat and remained obedient to their superior. At last, I understand that the superior has granted permission for a TLM on Franciscan property. I heard this. I don’t know if it’s a fact.
My point is that we often crush others because we don’t understand where they’re coming from.
I don’t see it as problematic as long as the spirit of what John Paul is writing is observed. I believe that the Holy Father knew and understood that there were always going to be situations when there would have to be understanding and compromises that would not harm the sacred liturgy. These compromises have been made in the past, as I said about the friars in the 13th century. There is a precedent for them. John Paul II knew this. We have to know this and remember it. Compromises are not a license to strip the liturgy of its beauty and solemnity or its joy.
I’ll have to find the names of the material produced by Teresa, John and some of the other Spanish saints and religious. I am not familiar with the hymnal that you’re talking about. I don’t know if they use it in my parish or not. We have a Spanish hymna, but I don’t know it’s name. I should.
JR
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