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japhy
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Wow. That translation of the document is a bit different from the copy EWTN has on its web site. Now I feel a pressing need to see the Latin.
Silly, meaningless, inaccurate, overused, dumbed-down, erroneous, or self-contradictory buzzwords and phrases
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benedictgal
Guest
While I agree to some degree, in principle, to what you have written, that still does not remove my concerns regarding the issue of music and all of the other infiltrations that have occurred in the Mass over the course of 40 years.I don’t know anything about this. If there is something out there with the same name, it would be good to be careful.
The Poor Clares do not follow the rule of the friars. Pope Leo changed their rule. They follow what is called the Leonine Rule. The reason for the change was to bring them into harmony with the Benedictines, since the Bennies are the model for contemplative life and the Poor Clares are contemplatives. Whoever celebrates the liturgy for Poor Clares follows their tradition, as long as the liturgy is in their house.
This was the big injustice that was committed against the Franciscans at Franciscan University. You must recall when a group of students and faculty asked for TLM and the University declined.
The friars declined, because of obedience to their rule. Since the Unnivesity is not a parish nor is it property of the Church, the Motu Propio did not bind them. The Rule of St. Francis binds them. This is an established agreement between the Church and what are called Excempt Religious Orders. They are excempt because there are many rules that do not apply to them, unless you’re talking about dogma or morals.
What happened was that people did not understand that the friars had to obey their religious superiors and that until they had permission to have a TLM in a Franciscan owned chapel, they could not do it. People didn’t understand, that because a Franciscan is a priest doesn’t mean that all things that other priests can do are allowable to Franciscans. The Franciscan rule is that they are Brothers and the priesthood is a sacramental state, not their way of life.
When people don’t understand these things, because they have not studied them or bothered to ask, everyone gets angry and people get hurt.
In the end, the Franciscan Friars at the University preached a wonderful homily on holy obedience. They took the heat and remained obedient to their superior. At last, I understand that the superior has granted permission for a TLM on Franciscan property. I heard this. I don’t know if it’s a fact.
My point is that we often crush others because we don’t understand where they’re coming from.
I don’t see it as problematic as long as the spirit of what John Paul is writing is observed. I believe that the Holy Father knew and understood that there were always going to be situations when there would have to be understanding and compromises that would not harm the sacred liturgy. These compromises have been made in the past, as I said about the friars in the 13th century. There is a precedent for them. John Paul II knew this. We have to know this and remember it. Compromises are not a license to strip the liturgy of its beauty and solemnity or its joy.
I’ll have to find the names of the material produced by Teresa, John and some of the other Spanish saints and religious. I am not familiar with the hymnal that you’re talking about. I don’t know if they use it in my parish or not. We have a Spanish hymna, but I don’t know it’s name. I should.
JR
Mult-culturalsim has become the new buzzword, not only in the Church, but, in the secular world as well. While the Church has made several inroads with various cultures and indigenous peoples, it is always with the notion that the integrity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not to be compromised.
Unfortunately, there have been groups within the United States that have taken this issue and have distorted it completely. One such matter involves “liturgical dance”, something that does not even exist in the Western tradition. As Cardnial Arinze has said:
When we begin to introduce foreign elements into the Mass under the guise of multiculturalism, then, that’s where the problems start and spread.
The other problem with using all of these buzzwords like “multiculturalism” and the like is that, while the Church reads the signs of the times, she should not be dictated by them. She has a different standard: Jesus Christ, who is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. All of these buzzwords count for naught.
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JReducation
Guest
I was not referring to multiculturalism, though I do believe that Europe was not the only culture to make a contribution to sacred liturgy.
As do dance, I have only seen it once in my 25 years as a Catholic and I have lived on three continents and four dioceses. It can’t be that common. In fact, where I saw it was in South America at an indegenous village where they were celebrating the feast of their patron saint. It was actually very beautiful. It was a combination of hyms of thanksgiving and dance. In that situation, I wouldn’t expect the missionaries to impose the Gregorian chant on people who don’t even speak a European language. In many places in South America, Africa, Asia Minor and Australia, people speakk indegenous languages that pre-date European languages and have music that pre-dates Gregorian chant. Some of this music is very beautiful and the words are very mystical.
There was one song in Quichua which was very similar to the Canticle of the Sun by St. Francis. I’m not sure if that’s where they go the inspiration, since the missionaries were Franciscan. In any case, it was stunning to hear the praises of God for his creation being sung with such love and joy and the recognition of God as Creator of the universe.
Gotta run, off to the airpot to pick up daughter.
JR
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elmcclintic
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“OTOH, I’d never heard of CCD until I started coming to these boards. In fact, although I did look it up once, and I now know that it refers to religious education, the initials still don’t bring words to my mind.”
Cut, Color and Draw:
Cut, Color and Draw:
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Phemie
Guest
YES! I knew I’d seen that document somewhere with the term ‘special ministers of the Eucharist’ in it. When I read the one I posted I figured I’d dreamed the one about ‘special minister’.
I appears, that the original document has been, what, retranslated?
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benedictgal
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However, if I read Redemptionis Sacramentum correctly, the term is now, henceforth, Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion, since the Vatican has now made it clear that the ordinary ministers of the Eucharist are the bishop and priest. You are right, though, as we need to see what the original document has to say.
Japhy, you made a very good point in another thread. It’s not the issue of Latin that is at fault; it’s someone’s bad translation of it that is the true culprit.
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Phemie
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Canon Law also refers to EMHCs and so does another document, the 1997 “Ecclesiae de Mysterio”. I told you, RS was simply a finger wagging reiteration of previous documents, a kind of ‘Boys, how many time do you have to be told?!?!’ That’s why it makes me so angry to hear my pastor say “But we don’t have to follow RS since our diocese hasn’t promulgated that document yet.” Aaarghhhh!However, if I read Redemptionis Sacramentum correctly, the term is now, henceforth, Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion, since the Vatican has now made it clear that the ordinary ministers of the Eucharist are the bishop and priest. You are right, though, as we need to see what the original document has to say.
Japhy, you made a very good point in another thread. It’s not the issue of Latin that is at fault; it’s someone’s bad translation of it that is the true culprit.
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japhy
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Yeah. RS was the Church’s “been there, done that”, to which abusive bishops and priests responded “talk to the hand”.
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Phemie
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Perfect description.
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James_Miller
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The title does not limit us to silly church buzzwords.
The worst to me is when I hear “senators and congressmen” as if the senate is not a part of the US Congress.
The worst to me is when I hear “senators and congressmen” as if the senate is not a part of the US Congress.
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johnnydigit
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**“Liturgy” - as referring to Mass.
**isn’t a “liturgy” a form (collection of prayers), and doesn’t the Mass include several liturgies, so why refer to the Mass as “Liturgy”? is not the “Mass” the official term we use to describe the Holy Sacrifice?
i believe in some Eastern Catholic Churches they call it the “Divine Liturgy”? still, we Latin Rite Catholics would more correctly use “Mass”, no?
**isn’t a “liturgy” a form (collection of prayers), and doesn’t the Mass include several liturgies, so why refer to the Mass as “Liturgy”? is not the “Mass” the official term we use to describe the Holy Sacrifice?
i believe in some Eastern Catholic Churches they call it the “Divine Liturgy”? still, we Latin Rite Catholics would more correctly use “Mass”, no?
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lak611
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Mass is strictly a Latin Catholic term. Eastern Catholics never use the term “Mass”.
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Manfred
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The terms “Low Mass” and “High Mass” are NOT “silly, meaningless, inaccurate, overused, dumbed-down, erroneous, or self-contradictory buzzwords and phrases”; they refer to TRADITIONAL LATIN MASSES that are either not sung (low) or sung (high). OK?? :tsktsk:
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JReducation
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Vatican II and Pope John XXIII deliberately brought the term liturgy over from the Eastern Rites. Jon XXIII had served in Venice and in Istanbul among the Byzantine Catholics. In one of his biographies they mention that he was so impressed that they had retained the ancient Greek term Liturgia. He felt that it better described what happens at mass.
He was not against using the word mass. However, he also liked liturgy and he introduced the term in the Vatican before the Council even began.
Both words are correct. They both describe a truth about the celebration.
JR
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elt1956
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CCD Confraternity of Christian Doctrine. It was Catechism when I went to school too. I have seen this most often in reference to Catholic religious education for those children attending public schools.It was just plain Catechism when I was growing up. Or was that something else??
Peace
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lak611
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If you went to Catholic school, it would have just been Catechism or Religion. CCD is only for the public school kids.It was just plain Catechism when I was growing up. Or was that something else??
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MichiganTrumbul
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Scottgun:
Ain’t that the truth!!! (pardon my bad English)
I find that often these dissenters use “dialogue” as an end and not as a means to an end - except indirectly, as you pointed out. Either “let’s keep talking until you get tired” or “lets keep talking for the sake of talking, while nothing gets done.”
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PaixGioiaAmor
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But ONLY in the Tridentine mass are they accurate; A woman the other day referred to “high mass” in the context of the novus ordo, which is indeed incorrect. There is only ONE mass in the new rite.
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johnnydigit
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found it. newadvent.org/cathen/09306a.htmVatican II and Pope John XXIII deliberately brought the term liturgy over from the Eastern Rites. Jon XXIII had served in Venice and in Istanbul among the Byzantine Catholics. In one of his biographies they mention that he was so impressed that they had retained the ancient Greek term Liturgia. He felt that it better described what happens at mass.
He was not against using the word mass. However, he also liked liturgy and he introduced the term in the Vatican before the Council even began.
Both words are correct. They both describe a truth about the celebration.
JR
“So in Christian use liturgy meant the public official service of the Church, that corresponded to the official service of the Temple in the Old Law. We must now distinguish two senses in which the word was and is still commonly used. These two senses often lead to confusion.
On the one hand, liturgy often means the whole complex of official services, all the rites, ceremonies, prayers, and sacraments of the Church, as opposed to private devotions. In this sense we speak of the arrangement of all these services in certain set forms (including the canonical hours, administration of sacraments, etc.), used officially by any local church, as the liturgy of such a church – the Liturgy of Antioch, the Roman Liturgy, and so on. So liturgy means rite; we speak indifferently of the Byzantine Rite or the Byzantine Liturgy. In the same sense we distinguish the official services from others by calling them liturgical; those services are liturgical which are contained in any of the official books (see LITURGICAL BOOKS) of a rite. In the Roman Church, for instance, Compline is a liturgical service, the Rosary is not.
The other sense of the word liturgy, now the common one in all Eastern Churches, restricts it to the chief official service only – the Sacrifice of the Holy Eucharist, which in our rite we call the Mass. This is now practically the only sense in which leitourgia is used in Greek, or in its derived forms (e.g., Arabic al-liturgiah) by any Eastern Christian. When a Greek speaks of the “Holy Liturgy” he means only the Eucharistic Service. For the sake of clearness it is perhaps better for us too to keep the word to this sense, at any rate in speaking of Eastern ecclesiastical matters; for instance, not to speak of the Byzantine canonical hours as liturgical services. Even in Western Rites the word “official” or “canonical” will do as well as “liturgical” in the general sense, so that we too may use Liturgy only for the Holy Eucharist.
It should be noted also that, whereas we may speak of our Mass quite correctly as the Liturgy, we should never use the word Mass for the Eucharistic Sacrifice in any Eastern rite. Mass (missa) is the name for that service in the Latin Rites only. It has never been used either in Latin or Greek for any Eastern rite. Their word, corresponding exactly to our Mass, is Liturgy. The Byzantine Liturgy is the service that corresponds to our Roman Mass; to call it the Byzantine (or, worse still, the Greek) Mass is as wrong as naming any other of their services after ours, as calling their Hesperinos Vespers, or their Orthros Lauds. When people go even as far as calling their books and vestments after ours, saying Missal when they mean Euchologion, alb when they mean sticharion, the confusion becomes hopeless.”
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PatrickJT914
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Hi Manfred,
Are you aware that your post (#914)matches part of my username? Which happens to be my B-day. Anyway just a little bit of silly irony.
Now on to a response. I checked an online dictionary to find the meanings of “LOW” and “HIGH”. I found The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 4th Edition, 2000, Updated 2003 to be helpful. The following definitions come from there.
LOW- Below average in degree, intensity, or amount
Below an average or a standard
Relatively small
INFERIOR
Depreciatory, disparaging
Brought down.
HIGH- Of great importance
Lofty
Favorable
Eminent in rank
A high level
Since the 2nd Vatican Council changed the all that to bring back the beauty and high importance of Mass being the Mass, without any degrees or levels of it. (Even if it has singing or not) With that being said, my original post stands just as it is!
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