Similar to Marital Debt Question

[dulcissima]

Ron, I don’t think it is a good idea to give up on having that kind of a relationship with your wife. It sounds to me like it has hurt your self-esteem and you two are slowly drifting apart. Why don’t you work on spending more time together, connecting emotionally, spending some time together intimately. Then I would work on increasing your frequency to the point where you are both anticipating it? Try to set the mood. Try some different things. Read some books. I would work on it, because if you are willing to go dormant on this for some time, you may not have another chance to have that kind of a relationship with your wife. There is a use it or lose it component to sexuality. This isn’t just for you. It isn’t about selfishness. This is about living the married life that God wants for you.

 

[YinYangMom]

CuriousInIL:

So, if “both parties really aren’t into the sex thing” then they cannot give up sex becuase that wouldn’t p;ease God? Is that really your position?

Not my position at all.
The Church’s.

Sacrifice is about offering up something you desire for the greater good of the Church.

What kind of sacrifice is it to give up broccoli if you can’t stand the taste, smell or texture of it?

Same with sex within marriage. If it’s not something they desire there’s no sacrifice to offer.

To say a couple chooses a Josephite marriage without really making the personal commitment to offer **desired **marital relations for the good of the Church is a lie.

What the couple would really be doing is taking the easier way out (giving up the challenge of working through whatever issues need to be resolved in order to restore natural desire back to the marriage) and cloaking that in the guise of spiritual sacrifice in order to rationalize their decision.

 

[YinYangMom]

LighthouseRon:

I guess I’m not getting the right question answered. Let me try phrasing it this way. Is it selfish of me to discontinue relations with her so that I can more easily deal with my temptations?

Yes. Look at how you phrased the question: me discontinue because it’s easier for me with regard to my temptations. Where is the well-being of your wife in there? Nowhere. Man gives himself up for his wife, wife gives herself up for her husband. Man protects wife, wife nurtures husband.

Your wife is not well. It doesn’t help that her upbringing has a lot to do with her view of sex, but we can assure you it is not natural. A loving husband would want to do everything in his power to help her heal. Will it be challenging? Definitely, but that doesn’t release you from your obligation.

Christ did not get to negotiate the degree of pain He was to endure on our behalf. Neither are you permitted to negotiate the degree of discomfort you will face in this marriage.

Have you two listened to Christopher West’s "Naked Without Shame"? It’s availabe for under $5 in a 10 CD set. Quite thorough, eye-opening, hopeful and inspiring. A shorter option would be his “Marriage and the Eucharist” available for free (1 CD)

As I’ve said, she clearly (and has told me) she doesn’t enjoy relations anyway, but the church says we should continue, even though it has turned into a physical activity as opposed to an emotional bonding experience. Our 10 year marriage has been pretty good despite the lack of physical intimacy, but I see us drifting apart in the last year or so because we are involved with more things and I think we have both become more self centered. We seldom talk about things of mutual interest and we are less concerned about the other’s life. It sounds worse than it is, but I see us drifting that direction.

This is why the Church is wise in Her counsel to married couples to engage in marital relations - it serves unitive purposes as well as procreative. Do you honestly believe abstaining completely, effectively giving up, will bring your marriage closer?

I’ve come to accept that relations 1 or 2 times a month is what it is going to be, if I accept it. I’m pretty sure that’s not the norm, if there is one.

1 or 2 times a month is not a good thing??? Norms or not, the bottom line is whatever works for the two of you in keeping your marriage alive and healthy. If it’s once a year, fine, if it’s every week, fine. It’s quite a personal determination.

It has gotten to where I think it is better to stop relations all together because after some time has passed, my urge decreases, lessening my temptation for related sins.

Again, this stopping benefits you, but not your wife, therefore it is not a good option.

 

[LighthouseRon]

1or 2 times a is not a good thing??? Norms or not, the bottom line is whatever works for the two of you in keeping your marriage alive and healthy. If it’s once a year, fine, if it’s every week, fine. It’s quite a personal determination."

Again, this stopping benefits you, but not your wife, therefore it is not a good option.

My response to that is 1 or 2 times a month doesn’t work for me, especially when she is only “providing” for me in a very mechanical, detached manner. I could deal with the frequency better if she was enjoying it but she doesn’t. I see no benefit to the marriage to continue relations when she doesn’t enjoy it and abstaining benefits me in that it minimizes my temptation. Does it bring our marriage closer together this way? Maybe, maybe not. But the current situation does nothing to bring us closer together.

Let me say I love my wife tremendously. It is so strange because she is a touchy-feely type of person, loves (and insists) to snuggle before going to sleep every night. But when the idea of anything more intimate comes up, she simply seems bothered. We hold hands often, whether at dinner, in church, or just relaxing in the evening. But that is as far as it goes. It seems obvious she has a hang-up of some sort but she won’t talk to anyone about it and until she does, there isn’t much I can do except to try to minimize impact on both of us. I will say it hurts tremendously to know your spouse doesn’t want to be intimate, and I’m trying to minimize the hurt.

 

[mec]

My response to that is 1 or 2 times a month doesn’t work for me, especially when she is only “providing” for me in a very mechanical, detached manner. I could deal with the frequency better if she was enjoying it but she doesn’t. I see no benefit to the marriage to continue relations when she doesn’t enjoy it and abstaining benefits me in that it minimizes my temptation. Does it bring our marriage closer together this way? Maybe, maybe not. But the current situation does nothing to bring us closer together.

Let me say I love my wife tremendously. It is so strange because she is a touchy-feely type of person, loves (and insists) to snuggle before going to sleep every night. But when the idea of anything more intimate comes up, she simply seems bothered. We hold hands often, whether at dinner, in church, or just relaxing in the evening. But that is as far as it goes. It seems obvious she has a hang-up of some sort but she won’t talk to anyone about it and until she does, there isn’t much I can do except to try to minimize impact on both of us. I will say it hurts tremendously to know your spouse doesn’t want to be intimate, and I’m trying to minimize the hurt.

Ron, I’ve been following this thread with interest because I find myself in much the same boat. I’ve been married for over 15 years. Fortunately for my wife and me, she does find some pleasure in it occasionally, but usually I can tell that she’s just putting up with it. She’s told me, too.

So I think I understand what you’re saying because I’ve been there.

So, to put my 2 cents in… Yes, I believe it would be wrong to give up on this aspect of your marriage precisely for the reasons YinYangMom has described. Your own posts show how you and your wife are drifting apart. I guarantee you that you will continue to drift apart if you stop working on this problem in your marriage. Both of our wives have a problem, and it is our vocation (yes, vocation!) to be the source of God’s grace in their lives. They need our help, and we took a vow to love them sacrificially for the rest of our lives. And in your case and mine, that means we should patiently and lovingly work to help them overcome whatever it is that’s preventing them from enjoying one of God’s greatest gifts. It may take the rest of our lives, but we must do our part. Without resentment. Without discouragement. “Be stouthearted and wait for the Lord!”

In my wife’s case, I strongly suspect that it is due to some childhood abuse she won’t acknowledge, or to guilt over a sexual relationship she had before we met. I don’t know for sure, but little by little, she’s coming around. Not fast enough for my taste, I assure you, but she is.

So pray to the Blessed Mother and to St. Joseph for help. And every time you make love, pray that your bride may enjoy the nuptial feast Our Lord has prepared for her.

 

[LighthouseRon]

mec:

In my wife’s case, I strongly suspect that it is due to some childhood abuse she won’t acknowledge, or to guilt over a sexual relationship she had before we met. I don’t know for sure, but little by little, she’s coming around. Not fast enough for my taste, I assure you, but she is.

So pray to the Blessed Mother and to St. Joseph for help. And every time you make love, pray that your bride may enjoy the nuptial feast Our Lord has prepared for her.

Mec,

Thank you for the reply. While I don’t wish this type of situation on anyone, it is comforting to know there might be hope through someone else’s experience.

May I ask, did your wife recognize she had a problem? Where did the two of you go to get help? So far my wife won’t talk with anyone about it.

 

[MooCowSteph]

I am sorry to hear of your situation. I don’t know the moral implications of ceasing marital relations, although it seems like it would be OK if you both agreed. I would fear your marriage would suffer, however; I think you’d both be better off trying to solve the problem. I don’t think it’s selfish of you to cease relations, as you asked.

Since your wife is embarrased and won’t talk to a doctor, you must try to get her to open up to you. it isn’t normal no have no sex drive. It’s either realted to a hormonal disorder to an emotional issue. Talk this over with her after you’ve done some reading on homormal causes. Get a list of symptoms together and see if she has any other symptoms that might point to a hormonal issue. If not, try to get her to open up about what might be causing an emotional issue. Was she abused, made to feel sex was dirty or something to feel guilty about, or have other unresolved issues relating to sex? I hope you can get her to open up and can solve these issues.

 

[YinYangMom]

LighthouseRon:

My response to that is 1 or 2 times a month doesn’t work for me, especially when she is only “providing” for me in a very mechanical, detached manner.** I** could deal with the frequency better if she was enjoying it but she doesn’t. **I **see no benefit to the marriage to continue relations when she doesn’t enjoy it and abstaining benefits me in that it minimizes my temptation. Does it bring our marriage closer together this way? Maybe, maybe not. But the current situation does nothing to bring us closer together.

Notice all the "I"s and "me"s? It’s not about you. Never is, never will be. It’s always about God and how he works through you to make this world a better place for everyone. You are not helping your wife heal by abstaining for your own convenience.

You are basically saying, my wife has a cut which won’t heal. She doesn’t mind the mess, but the constant blood coming from the wound bothers me and it’s draining her, slowing sapping the life out of her. Since she doesn’t mind the mess and doesn’t want to heal the wound then it’s better for me to just stay in the other room so I don’t have to see the blood since it makes me nauseaus.

Why do you show little compassion for this woman you love so much and is obviously hurting? You don’t think she’s hurting because she’s content in not having sex, but she can’t be happy if your marriage is strained because of her lack of interest. The guilt has got to be eating away at her inside. Left unattended to it can wreak havoc on her and your marriage. Help her.

Let me say I love my wife tremendously. It is so strange because she is a touchy-feely type of person, loves (and insists) to snuggle before going to sleep every night. But when the idea of anything more intimate comes up, she simply seems bothered. We hold hands often, whether at dinner, in church, or just relaxing in the evening. But that is as far as it goes. It seems obvious she has a hang-up of some sort but she won’t talk to anyone about it and until she does, there isn’t much I can do except to try to minimize impact on both of us. I will say it hurts tremendously to know your spouse doesn’t want to be intimate, and I’m trying to minimize the hurt.

Instead of focusing on minimizing your hurt, focus on healing your wife and your marriage.

You can pray together, asking for guidance. You can go to Adoration together, hold hands before the Lord and offer your concerns to Him, asking Him to guide you through this together. Ask for His healing grace.

Listen to those CDs on the Theology of the Body and Marriage and the Eucharist.

Seek couples counseling which is also experienced with individual counseling particular to your wifes’ issues.

Do not give up. Remember Christ fell three times, you too, can find the perseverence to carry your wife through this. You are not alone. You are never alone. Much joy lies ahead for you, just as in Christ’s resurrection.

Your wife needs to die to herself and those old beliefs which have caused her to cling to the distorted view of sex she has. Help her to offer them up to the Lord so that she may be released from their hold on her.

You need to die to yourself and your desire to minimize your suffering. Take up that suffering with faith and courage so that you can live again renewed in your marriage and your faith.

p.s. Has anyone recommended the Pope Paul VI Institute yet? That’s another good resource to find information which can help you two.

 

[LighthouseRon]

YinYangMom:

Notice all the "I"s and "me"s? It’s not about you. Never is, never will be. It’s always about God and how he works through you to make this world a better place for everyone. You are not helping your wife heal by abstaining for your own convenience.

You are basically saying, my wife has a cut which won’t heal. She doesn’t mind the mess, but the constant blood coming from the wound bothers me and it’s draining her, slowing sapping the life out of her. Since she doesn’t mind the mess and doesn’t want to heal the wound then it’s better for me to just stay in the other room so I don’t have to see the blood since it makes me nauseaus.

Why do you show little compassion for this woman you love so much and is obviously hurting? You don’t think she’s hurting because she’s content in not having sex, but she can’t be happy if your marriage is strained because of her lack of interest. The guilt has got to be eating away at her inside. Left unattended to it can wreak havoc on her and your marriage. Help her.

Instead of focusing on minimizing your hurt, focus on healing your wife and your marriage.

You can pray together, asking for guidance. You can go to Adoration together, hold hands before the Lord and offer your concerns to Him, asking Him to guide you through this together. Ask for His healing grace.

Listen to those CDs on the Theology of the Body and Marriage and the Eucharist.

Seek couples counseling which is also experienced with individual counseling particular to your wifes’ issues.

Do not give up. Remember Christ fell three times, you too, can find the perseverence to carry your wife through this. You are not alone. You are never alone. Much joy lies ahead for you, just as in Christ’s resurrection.

Your wife needs to die to herself and those old beliefs which have caused her to cling to the distorted view of sex she has. Help her to offer them up to the Lord so that she may be released from their hold on her.

You need to die to yourself and your desire to minimize your suffering. Take up that suffering with faith and courage so that you can live again renewed in your marriage and your faith.

p.s. Has anyone recommended the Pope Paul VI Institute yet? That’s another good resource to find information which can help you two.

How can I help her if she won’t talk to me about it or admit there is a problem? I take significant offense implying I want to turn my back on her. I want to try to heal her. Been doing it for 10 years now. You have to work with what you have, and have a willing participant. She says no cut, sees no blood. How can I help her if she won’t let me? It is not just about me either, and I resent the implication. You mention praying together, asking for guidance. Why would she, she sees no problem! To her, sex is something a wife has to put up with, and it’s normal to her. The reason I suggest the admittedly drastic action is that’s all that’s left, a way to make the best of a bad situation. Would it be better to just take what she gives and keep my mouth shut? Are you thinking I am just a man thinking of himself? Think again! I understand she isn’t well. Do you think I would have worked so hard to help the situation if I though she was doing this to be mean?

 

[YinYangMom]

LighthouseRon:

How can I help her if she won’t talk to me about it or admit there is a problem?

But there IS a problem. The problem is your marriage is weakening.

Unless…she also doesn’t see a problem in your marriage???
Does she think everything’s fine just the way it is?

She says no cut, sees no blood. How can I help her if she won’t let me? … To her, sex is something a wife has to put up with, and it’s normal to her.

Now this is really interesting. Her complying twice a month is not a burden on her? She’s ok with the way things are in that regard? Even knowing you are not being fulfilled with that type of sex?

This is where those CDs will really help both of you. Marriage and the Eucharist first, because it’s only one CD and gets to the heart of the matter. Naked Without Shame next because once the heart and mind are open to this new perspective you’ll both have more questions and the 10 CD set will address those.

It is not just about me either, and I resent the implication.

Duly noted, you do see, however, from my highlights of your responses how it appeared to be about you, don’t you?

You mention praying together, asking for guidance. Why would she, she sees no problem!

But there is a problem, besides, you two should be praying together anyway. Perhaps take the other approach by not saying the problem is ‘hers’ entirely, but that the problem is ‘yours’ because you don’t know how to deal with the way sex is between the two of you. Something is missing and you want to find it with her. Perhaps she would be more willing to participate in counseling if it’s for your benefit???

Do you two go to adoration together? Have you two fasted and prayed a rosary for your marriage on a regular basis? You can pray for that without saying directly there’s a problem if that’s difficult for your wife to hear. Pray in thanksgiving to God for bringing you two together, for 10 wonderful years together and ask for continued blessings in years to come. Just doing that together will bring healing graces to the marriage.

The reason I suggest the admittedly drastic action is that’s all that’s left, a way to make the best of a bad situation.

And I’m saying that’s **not **all that’s left. I’ve given other avenues to pursue, including the Institute, but most importantly joint prayer and fasting.

Would it be better to just take what she gives and keep my mouth shut?

Better? Not necessarily, but it is a good place to start, now that you mention it. Perhaps you can find it in your heart to be thankful for the gift she is able to give. It isn’t top-of-the-line but it is humbly offered to the best of her ability. Isn’t that all God really asks of us anyway? To give of ourselves completely? Since this is as ‘complete’ a way she is able to give herself to you, perhaps it would be best to begin appreciating it for the sacrifice it really is for her. Especially since you do know that it is most difficult for her to do this.

Are you thinking I am just a man thinking of himself? Think again! I understand she isn’t well. Do you think I would have worked so hard to help the situation if I though she was doing this to be mean?

No, I’m thinking you’re a man who is tired of this dilemma you are faced with. You want to put a stop to it and you only see abstaining as the way to do that. But abstaining will not heal your marriage, it will definitely damage it even more. You love her too much to allow that to happen. So that really isn’t an option for you.

I’m trying to get you to see you can rise above this challenge in your marriage on your own, if need be, but I was hoping you’d be able to help her along the way. Apparently, since you described the matter so clearly - that she doesn’t even see the wound - that’s not the right approach after all.

My advice is the same, for the most part. Do not give up. Prayer really is powerful and can initiate change from within her heart without you having to say anything to her directly about the problem. You have to be diligent in your prayers, asking that God’s will be done, and that He guide you to accept His will - whatever that may be, and then have faith that your prayers will be answered.
As for actions, well you can’t do anything about hers or her state of mind, but you can do something about yours so maybe you were onto something there with the ‘take what she gives’ approach (more charitably, of course, but the gist is the same). Ask God particularly to help you truly appreciate this gift she is able to offer, as limited as it is, instead of feeling resentful or cheated by it. He really can help you there.

 

[mec]

LighthouseRon,

It is difficult for those who have not experienced this to understand the frustration and pain it causes. It is completely understandable that you feel ready to give up and accept the situation as it is. It is normal to wonder if it’s worth the effort.

The situation with my wife is not completely healed. She’s not interested in going to counseling, either. She’s a very private person, and counseling would mean that she’d have to talk about a subject she doesn’t want to talk about. I’ve not had any friends with whom I can confide about this, so I’ve had to resort to books by good, solid, orthodox writers.

I had all sorts of advice ready to give you, but really, the piece of advice I want you to take to heart is this: get and read the book “The Five Love Languages” by Gary Chapman. If there is one book that has truly helped us understand each other, this is it. Ask your wife to read it, too. It is not about sex. It is about how each of us has a different way of expressing and receiving love. It helps you figure out how you can express your love for your wife in a way that she truly “feels” loved.

Dr. Chapman’s basic idea is that there are five primary ways people express and feel loved: 1) Words of affirmation; 2) Giving and receiving gifts; 3) Performing and receiving acts of service; 4) Spending quality time together doing something they like to do; and 5) physical touch.

If there is one thing that has had the greatest effect in making my wife more receptive to making love, it is that for the first time I understood how to express my love for her in a language she understands. And she has begun to speak my love language. My wife’s primary love language is quality time together doing something she likes to do. Especially doing things that build our life together, like working on the house or garden. Her secondary love language is acts of service. My primary love language is physical touch, and my secondary love language is words of affirmation.

The book explains how to figure out what your wife’s primary love language is, and how to learn to “speak” it so that she not only knows that you love her, but so that she feels it deep down in her bones. And she’ll learn yours, and how to speak it, too.

What this book helped us to do is to see that we’ve spent many years expressing our love for each other in a language the other person didn’t understand. Now that we see what was going on, it makes it so much easier (and even exciting) for us to try to express our love in the language we each understand. For her part, my wife has begun to see how important mutually gratifying sex (and other forms of physical touch) is for me to feel loved. And because she does love me, and wants me to feel loved, she is making an effort to speak my language. And just the fact that she’s trying means more to me than I can express.

I hope this helps.