Simple question regarding alleged Marian worship?

[joe370]

It is said that icons do to paint/color what Scripture do to words. Icons isn’t merely capturing images of people we venerate and worship (in the case of Jesus Christ), but it is meant to be catechetical. The image of Lourdes and Fatima is not catechetical. A non-Catholic will interpret that as Marian worship.

Not a well-informed non-catholic. Lourdes and Fatima, due to the miraculous component, can really bolster ones faith and devotion to prayer, as was the case with me. The events of Fatima are mind-boggling.

 

[guanophore]

That may be the case but if you ask where the Catholic Church teaches the worship of Mary and anyone can easily find documents not even two-hundred years old that teach the worship of Mary then you’ve set yourself up for failure. What I am saying is the tactic of simply denying ‘Mary worship’ is bad. I agree the word worship has a different meaning today. But most people don’t know that and are hard to teach.

I would as a strategy recommend at least adding some distinction to the term worship when denying the Catholic Church teaches the worship of Mary. I might say the Catholic Church does not and has never taught the worship of Mary as being equal to God or in deserving the honor God alone should receive. I would at the beginning of my defense acknowledge that you will find documents that teach the worship of Mary but that worship in that case must be understood differently and give examples of how its use has changed. In fact this tract on Catholic Answers does exactly that and I think is very well done.

Thanks much Ex, that clarifies very well. I appreciate the feedback and advice.

 

[joe370]

ConstantineTG;10188616]Its not about finding fault. Not too long ago I would have agreed with everything every Catholic is saying on this thread. But given I have stepped out of the box and put on a different set of goggles, it does shock and amaze me that a lot of the criticism against the Catholic Church’s devotion to Mary do have some merit.

Different stroke for different folks.

I think you guys need to take this all in and do some self examination.

Like what, and why, if it feels right, and is in line with the teachings and devotional practises of the CC? Devotion to either Mary or the saints is fine IMHO, just as long as the focus is always God.

Many times Catholics have overstepped the boundary of veneration and worship, and it is true.

Then they should be corrected and asked to stay in line with the teachings and devotional practises of the CC.

I know this sounds mean from someone who has decided to leave the Church, but I’m saying this not to criticize but to open the eyes of people to the problem.

I see no problems, in terms of the proper way in which the catholic faith is practised. Could you be specific?

There is a problem. We have to be honest and acknowledge it. There is no need to be overly defensive about the issue.

Defensiveness serves no purpose. If I were to witness a problem regarding Marian devotion, taken too far, then I would simply remind him/her to stay in line with the teachings and devotional practises of the CC.

 

[Reuben_J]

It is said that icons do to paint/color what Scripture do to words. Icons isn’t merely capturing images of people we venerate and worship (in the case of Jesus Christ), but it is meant to be catechetical. The image of Lourdes and Fatima is not catechetical. A non-Catholic will interpret that as Marian worship.

Comparing an icon to the pictures of Fatima and Lourdes is like comparing apple and orange. This I think has been explained earlier on. The pictures of Fatima or Lourdes apparitions are merely illustration on what happened therein. It’s not meant to be catethical and not every picture need to be necessary so. Just think of some pictures in children Bible and you get the idea. Some people like them but by no means they are catechism by themselves. I don’t know about icon. I thought we have one at home and I never use it for catechism other than just sacramental object. So no big deal really on those pictures. I can guarantee you that you would not find them (the Fatima or the Lourdes one) regularly in Catholic homes. I wonder where you get them and for what reason really.

 

[Reuben_J]

Also, sit down with a convert. Ask them questions that a Protestant would ask you about the faith. Then have them explain them to you using Protestant terms. As Catholics we can say one thing and a Protestant will hear another…Catholic says pray = ask…Protestant hears pray = pray and they only pray to God

I live in a very Baptist area. When I converted my friends had a lot of questions. I always explained things to them in terms I know they would understand and could relate to. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard…“I still don’t agree, but it all makes better sense now.” I must say that each discussion has gone very well except for when the first time in her life my best friend realized that we believe in the Real Presence. Her reaction was :bigyikes: then:dts: There was no way to calmly discuss it.

Another great (name removed by moderator)ut here, maltmom. Thanks.

God bless you.

 

[Reuben_J]

I can guarantee you that you would not find them (the Fatima or the Lourdes one) regularly in Catholic homes.

… paintings of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, the Immaculate Heart of Mary, Our Lady of Fatima or Lourdes or Guagalope are perhaps more common, and they are quite catechetical in the sense that they depict widely held belief of the Church though belief on apparitions is always considered private revelation and not binding on Catholics. The latter three are more often depicted in statues though.

So if you want something catechetical, you have them. But what the point really?

 

[Woody87]

Guanophore, I respect what you are saying. That translation of words is not always easy especially with English. But I do think that is something that you should bring up with the papalencyclicals website and the Vatican website they translated it and put it up I just look stuff up in my spare time I’m not a scholar or theologians or an expert in dead languages . Personally I think it has been translated well. The word used in Latin here was cultus (in its basic form) which is defined in context as worship. Now my Latin is rusty so forgive me if I’m wrong but I don’t think I am. I looked up the word quickly the only other meaning in context could be devotion. I do think that it is important to see that this is not colere or venerari which can easily be translated as honor or veneration and not worship. I hope that you can concede thathonor, veneration as worship and devotion as worship are not the same so it should be seen as devotion and not veneration or honor if you reject the word worship. I do understand that the meaning of words over time change so I think your theory could be correct, but then again so can mine. I will grant that I am no historian which would be vary helpful to translation.
If this makes any difference Pope Pius XII agrees that it is worship but does not think that it takes away from worship due to God alone but that it redounds to glory her Divine Son(not direct quote paragraph 15). Later he goes on to quote something in paragraph 18 “more sweet, nothing dearer than to worship, venerated, invoke and praise with ardent affection the Mother of God” (I memorized that for you) . This is in Flugens Corona on the Vatican website.

I am not sorry for not putting in proper quotes and sited work. I am doing this at night while I can’t sleep on my phone in bed and the copy button on my phone is broken so deel with it. If you are on a computer there is a thing called Google look it up.

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[Della]

Its not about finding fault. Not too long ago I would have agreed with everything every Catholic is saying on this thread. But given I have stepped out of the box and put on a different set of goggles, it does shock and amaze me that a lot of the criticism against the Catholic Church’s devotion to Mary do have some merit. I think you guys need to take this all in and do some self examination. Many times Catholics have overstepped the boundary of veneration and worship, and it is true. I know this sounds mean from someone who has decided to leave the Church, but I’m saying this not to criticize but to open the eyes of people to the problem. There is a problem. We have to be honest and acknowledge it. There is no need to be overly defensive about the issue.

I have been a Catholic for 20+ years now and have NEVER witnessed anyone “overstep the boundary of veneration and worship”. Perhaps it is a cultural distaste you have–well, that’s certainly nothing Catholics need be ashamed of or “acknowledge” as bad or explain away. Love will demonstrate itself in acts of love. I’d rather have to deal with a little “wild fire” than to coldly look at others, judging their actions according to my personal likes and dislikes. I fear this is what you are doing. If so, joining another church isn’t going change your attitude–indeed, if you think you are joining a “better” one you may even become more prone to such condescension–something I’m sure any Orthodox priest would tell you is no more acceptable to them than it is to Catholics. It is always better to look at the actions of others with humility because those who judge will be judged as they judge.

 

[EIF5A]

What exactly does the term “Queen of Heaven” mean? Excuse my ignorance, but if God is King, does that mean Mary reigns in Heaven as well, although less than God?

 

[GaryTaylor]

What exactly does the term “Queen of Heaven” mean? Excuse my ignorance, but if God is King, does that mean Mary reigns in Heaven as well, although less than God?

You remember the Incarnation? Here’s what the Saint said about Queen of Heaven.

It is becoming for you, O Mary, to be mindful of us, as you stand near Him who bestowed upon you all graces, for you are the Mother of God and our Queen. Come to our aid for the sake of the King, the Lord God and Master Who was born of you. For this reason you are called “full of grace.”
Be mindful of us, most holy Virgin, and bestow on us gifts from the riches of your graces, O Virgin, full of grace.

St. Athanasius (d. 373)
The Greatest Marian Prayers : Their History, Meaning, and Usage, Anthony M. Buono

 

[EIF5A]

Sorry, in my Protestant church, we’re not exposed to the adoration of Virgin Mary. In fact, I’m still not sure where the line is between adoration and worship — is it the words, state of mind, emphasizing more/less than God?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Sorry, in my Protestant church, we’re not exposed to the adoration of Virgin Mary. In fact, I’m still not sure where the line is between adoration and worship — is it the words, state of mind, emphasizing more/less than God?

Intercession through the Holy Spirit is about what it all comes down to as Jesus Christ wills, being that; He will come to judge the living and dead.

 

[Woody87]

EIF5A
I understand when I first came across these types of speeches I felt like tearing my clothes. I. Still think that these blasphemies are ridiculous. Things like this prayer are not official doctrine of the church by the way.

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[EIF5A]

EIF5A
I understand when I first came across these types of speeches I felt like tearing my clothes. I. Still think that these blasphemies are ridiculous. Things like this prayer are not official doctrine of the church by the way.

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I may not be familiar with them, but accusing these prayers of blasphemy is pretty serious. Jesus said Himself that not all things were revealed to people. That may include intercessory prayer through Saints and other Catholic doctrines. I don’t know where you obtained your theology and doctrine, but I respect the Catholic Church enough that I will withhold judgment on doctrinal matters, even if I don’t practice them.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Things like this prayer are not official doctrine of the church by the way.

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I don’t see a question about the Doctrine of the Church. Its descriptive of the question asked.

 

[kwortham]

Its not about finding fault. Not too long ago I would have agreed with everything every Catholic is saying on this thread. But given I have stepped out of the box and put on a different set of goggles, it does shock and amaze me that a lot of the criticism against the Catholic Church’s devotion to Mary do have some merit. I think you guys need to take this all in and do some self examination. Many times Catholics have overstepped the boundary of veneration and worship, and it is true. I know this sounds mean from someone who has decided to leave the Church, but I’m saying this not to criticize but to open the eyes of people to the problem. There is a problem. We have to be honest and acknowledge it. There is no need to be overly defensive about the issue.

{The following response represents the nausea your above post caused me. It is not a personal attack against you.}

Bunk!

Christ in order to fulfill both old and new covenant law must honor His mother. We, if we are indeed followers of Christ, can do no less.If we do not honor Mary, then we have rejected Christ!

I reject your whole notion that some Catholics worship Mary. Would protestant colored glasses work better? Let us see.

With protestant colored glasses, Mary is married to Joseph. God then decides to procreate with her and with her consent (something that is forbidden for us to do). The offspring from this fornication / adultery became the savior of the world. Christ, in gratitude for the nourishment, love and care of His mother, lets her die and rot away in the ground.

Bunk! A trillion times bunk!

The catholic teaching on Mary is the correct and most pure way of looking at true history. Mary gave herself to God! Joseph became a caretaker of her, just as a brother and sister. Christ in fulfillment of the law honors His mother even now and forever more. Mary was given to us by our Lord. Therefore, we must honor Mary. To call this “worship” is the quintessential definition of bearing false witness!

John 19: 26 When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. 27 After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own.

 

[Alliski]

Since becoming catholic, (and long before) I have been told by some non-Catholics (with the exception of EO Christians) that the Catholic Church teaches Marian worship. I have been witnessing these claims recently right here at CAF. In light of said accusations, could anyone making such claims please show me the official magisterial teaching (or unofficial teaching) to back up said claim?

I am in inquiry right now, and I asked the person (from the church) who is responsible for answering my questions the same thing about Mary, and what I had been told by others (non-Catholics) and he said this:

We do not worship Mary. Giving honor and respect are far different from worship. However, the reason Catholic’s honor and revere Mary so highly is because she is the Mother of God, and she is a “co-redempterous” (the word he used) because she said “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word” and by doing so, consented to the conception, because Mary had, like all humans, Freewill, and could have refused. Though I doubt she ever would have.

I would also hypthesize that perhaps many who confuse honor and respect with worship do not really worship. We tend (as humans) to revere and honor what we hold so highly, but I have seen many people who respect the ideas that their church teaches, but there is no true religion, no true worship, in that “house of God”, or in that person. So it would be easy for someone who does not really worship God, who only respects the idea of God, to confuse worship with respect and honor. :yup:

 

[PJM]

=joe370;10188643]Different stroke for different folks.

Like what, and why, if it feels right, and is in line with the teachings and devotional practises of the CC? Devotion to either Mary or the saints is fine IMHO, just as long as the focus is always God.

Then they should be corrected and asked to stay in line with the teachings and devotional practises of the CC.

I see no problems, in terms of the proper way in which the catholic faith is practised. Could you be specific?

Defensiveness serves no purpose. If I were to witness a problem regarding Marian devotion, taken too far, then I would simply remind him/her to stay in line with the teachings and devotional practises of the CC.

***And what “Marian Prayer” does nor lead to Jesus as it’s Goal?:***shrug:

 

[Woody87]

I forgot where I am. I have a habit of saying exactly what I am thinking. Which for the purposes of discussion is not helpful nor is it nice.

I know that this was in response to a question, and not a statement of official doctrine.

I am not going to begin to get into this subject. I am sorry already that I brought it up.

 

[peace2u2]

What exactly does the term “Queen of Heaven” mean? Excuse my ignorance, but if God is King, does that mean Mary reigns in Heaven as well, although less than God?

This article is short and explains the title the Church gives her as Queen of Heaven:

ewtn.com/expert/answers/mother.htm

Mary is the most perfect creature that God created. Mary is the echo of God. Everything Mary does or says always points to God.

The prayer, The Hail Mary is a Christ-centered prayer and so is the The Rosary Prayer, which certainly even if you are Protestant can and should pray these two prayers and other devotions to Mary.

Remember God found favor with Mary and her yes opened the door of salvation to all men. The devil hates her more than Jesus because he knows the power in those two prayers and in her intercession that God allows.

Ezekiel 44:1-4
1 Then he brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, which faces east; and it was shut. 2 The Lord said to me: This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut. 3 Only the prince, because he is a prince, may sit in it to eat food before the Lord; he shall enter by way of the vestibule of the gate, and shall go out by the same way. 4 Then he brought me by way of the north gate to the front of the temple; and I looked, and lo! the glory of the Lord filled the temple of the Lord; and I fell upon my face.