Sin and Full Conscience

[La-Petite-Fleur]

If I do/say something I’m afraid or feel could be sinful, but I don’t know for fact whether it is mortal or venial, then am I in full conscience (and thus possibly in mortal sin)?

I go to confession almost every week. In between that time I sometimes say things that I worry I “shouldn’t have said” (even a few seconds before it comes out of my mouth in the midst of conversation). And sometimes I also do things which may be nothing at all, or may be grave, but I worry about it. (If something -whatever it is- I am doing is venial or mortal?) My question is about the “knowing” part. Sometimes I feel and worry that something I’m doing or have done is a sin, I just don’t know for an absolute fact if it is mortal or venial. And sometimes I can see how it can be both at the same time. It’s not that I mean to be scrupulous, I just don’t know at times if some things are venial or grave (because I’m a convert, and I’m still kind of new even after about 9 years), and I worry that my conscience does know that something is mortal, then again, I wonder if I’m exaggerating (therefore, wouldn’t that mean I don’t know for a fact)? Oy.

Of course the effects of this can be quite stressful, and I become upset at the thought of not spending eternity with my Beloved Jesus. I’ve heard that one can say an act of perfect contrition (although not know if it is perfect), but only (?) if one is in danger of death (it can’t be done if one is well?). Anyway, those points aside (as I don’t want to divert from the main question at the top), I would so much appreciate the answers. Happy New Year to you all, and God bless you .

 

[Bookcat]

If I do/say something I’m afraid or feel could be sinful, but I don’t know for fact whether it is mortal or venial, then am I in full conscience (and thus possibly in mortal sin)?

I go to confession almost every week. In between that time I sometimes say things that I worry I “shouldn’t have said” (even a few seconds before it comes out of my mouth in the midst of conversation). And sometimes I also do things which may be nothing at all, or may be grave, but I worry about it. (If something -whatever it is- I am doing is venial or mortal?) My question is about the “knowing” part. Sometimes I feel and worry that something I’m doing or have done is a sin, I just don’t know for an absolute fact if it is mortal or venial. And sometimes I can see how it can be both at the same time. It’s not that I mean to be scrupulous, I just don’t know at times if some things are venial or grave (because I’m a convert, and I’m still kind of new even after about 9 years), and I worry that my conscience does know that something is mortal, then again, I wonder if I’m exaggerating (therefore, wouldn’t that mean I don’t know for a fact)? Oy.

Of course the effects of this can be quite stressful, and I become upset at the thought of not spending eternity with my Beloved Jesus. I’ve heard that one can say an act of perfect contrition (although not know if it is perfect), but only (?) if one is in danger of death (it can’t be done if one is well?). Anyway, those points aside (as I don’t want to divert from the main question at the top), I would so much appreciate the answers. Happy New Year to you all, and God bless you .

OK I need to be very clear here.

If a person thinks in his reason that something may be a serious matter --I mean he has good well founded reasons for it – and thus knows that he needs to find out --he is not to act until he resolves the doubt by for example reasoning about it, looking it up in the Catechism, seeking good advice, prayer etc. I am meaning particularly when one has the time to do it (there are reflex principles too that can be applied in many cases). This is when a person with a normal conscience has reasons on both sides and is unable to come to a prudent judgment about the matter. He should use due diligence so he can make a good judgment based on sound moral principles etc.

HOWEVER

It sounds to me that you struggle with scruples in these matters. If that is the case then what you are talking about are fears or scruples …not really doubts!

So in the case of a person with scruples or a tendency in the direction – the above does not come normally into play. And scruples are to be ignored not reasoned with. Like a barking dog. One does not reason with a barking dog. One just keeps walking.

Remember well that for a mortal sin one needs at the same time:

Grave Matter

Full Knowlege

Complete Consent

If ANY of these three are missing --it is certainly NOT mortal.

In the case when one looks at what one has done and has doubts about any of these three being present at the time – and one is seeking to follow Christ --to live a Christian life and not commit mortal sins --than one may “take the benefit of the doubt”. It is a good rule of thumb in this case to judge that it was NOT a mortal sin.

And thus at worse it was a venial sin or no sin at all…which can be taken of by prayer etc (holy water is great to use in this case).

This would apply for those without scruples as well.

And one of course is not obliged to confess doubtful ‘mortal’ sins.

Also if you do experience scruples or have a tendency toward them there are other things I could go into that can be of help…

Please feel free to contact me privately too if I can be of further help. I do not always look back at each post list.

 

[baltobetsy]

The general rule is that, unless you know for sure that an action is gravely (seriously, mortally) wrong, you do not commit a mortal sin by doing the action. Of course, if the thought comes to you that a certain thing might be mortally sinful, before you do it, it’s best to refrain.

Another thing you might wish to do is to educate yourself about what specific actions constitute mortal sins. Take a look at this examination of conscience and you’ll get a feel for what one good priest considers mortal and venial. You should be able to extend this sense of what’s seriously sinful to other actions that are not on the list.

Remember that God loves you more than you love Him, and that He wants you with Him for all eternity. He’s not looking for ways to disqualify you from heaven. He’s not trying to nab you for some halfhearted uncharitable comment or thought. In order to separate yourself from Him, you have to really turn away from Him on purpose by disobeying in a serious matter.

Finally, it seems you do have a touch of scrupulosity. It might be very helpful for you to take up this question with the priest in confession in order to get some guidelines for yourself that would have the force (and safety) of obedience. Are you able to go to the same priest every time? It’s best if you can.

God bless you for caring so much!

Betsy

 

[Bookcat]

PS: regarding perfect act of contrition. one does NOT need to be in danger of death.

It is contrition out of love of God together with the intention to confess the mortal sin as soon as is reasonably possible.

Also regarding venial sins – these need not be confessed so they can be forgiven via contrition …via many ways …prayer, alms, acts of charity, etc…

 

[Bookcat]

The general rule is that, unless you know for sure that an action is gravely (seriously, mortally) wrong, you do not commit a mortal sin by doing the action. Of course, if the thought comes to you that a certain thing might be mortally sinful, before you do it, it’s best to refrain.

Betsy

Especially for someone with scruples – they should not regard ‘just a thought’ that something may be mortally sinful as a reason to refrain. they should follow the principles for those with scruples --which is basically what you said in the first line.

A person without scruples can though commit a mortal sin if they know they should find out if the matter is grave --and do not do due diligence and act anyhow.

 

[La-Petite-Fleur]

Thank you all so much. Bookcat, I also got your message. I’ve read all of the replies, and I am beginning to feel more at peace. What I am understanding, then (please correct me if I’m wrong) is that one does have to KNOW, really know, that something is mortal (not just wrong or a sin of some sort, but MORTAL), and decide to go ahead and do it any way for them to be in a state of mortal sin?

An example: I was feeling very sad a few days ago because of how someone was treating me. I talked to them about it, and mentioned their actions, and even the expression on their face. As I mentioned it though, I worried that maybe it was mortal. Worried, but didn’t know for a fact. I worried that it was judging, and that it was a mortal sin, but key word is “worried”, I didn’t “know” if it was or is a mortal sin. I confronted them because they were really hurting me, and after maybe a week I was miserable (on top of it all, I wasn’t feeling well. I had a loss of appetite, and I just wanted to get it off my chest, because it was making me feel even worse.) Later, I worried that I had judged them. I also worried that maybe I should have just bore the cross and suffered other people’s offenses, even if it was making me sick, and offer it up to Jesus.

So for the last few days I’ve been concerned that I’m not in a state of grace, and not feeling well on top of it all, I worry about what would happen to me if I didn’t recover.

 

[La-Petite-Fleur]

Especially for someone with scruples – they should not regard ‘just a thought’ that something may be mortally sinful as a reason to refrain. they should follow the principles for those with scruples --which is basically what you said in the first line. ( baltobetsy The general rule is that, unless you know for sure that an action is gravely (seriously, mortally) wrong, you do not commit a mortal sin)

Yes, I was thinking about this. So then it sounds cleared up. “Unless you know for sure that it is Mortal”. Really? Is that all? Because if that is how it works (for lack of a better word) for both the scrupulous and non, then that gives me much relief :coolinoff:. No more “I think/feel/worry this-or-that was mortal or somehow sinful, therfore I fret that I’m in mortal sin”. It would only be “I KNOW that what I did without doubt, was mortal, and I did it anyway” that would be how to be in mortal sin. Yes?

 

[La-Petite-Fleur]

Yes, I was thinking about this. So then it sounds cleared up. “Unless you know for sure that it is Mortal”. Really? Is that all? Because if that is how it works (for lack of a better word) for both the scrupulous and non, then that gives me much relief :coolinoff:. No more "I think/feel/worry this-or-that was mortal or somehow sinful, therfore I fret that I’m in mortal sin (even as I say/do it) ". It would only be “I KNOW that what I did (as I did/said it) without doubt, was mortal, and I did it anyway” that would be how to be in mortal sin. Yes?

Added to edit after time limit. I made it green to show the edit. I wanted to add those points because not only do I worry after the fact, but sometimes I worry even in the midst of an action or statement (or even a few minutes or seconds before I say, do something). But see, I just noticed I used the word “worry”… Which brings me back to what I just quoted/edited: One has to KNOW for sure it is mortal, yes?

 

[baltobetsy]

An example: I was feeling very sad a few days ago because of how someone was treating me. I talked to them about it, and mentioned their actions, and even the expression on their face. As I mentioned it though, I worried that maybe it was mortal. Worried, but didn’t know for a fact. I worried that it was judging, and that it was a mortal sin, but key word is “worried”, I didn’t “know” if it was or is a mortal sin. I confronted them because they were really hurting me, and after maybe a week I was miserable (on top of it all, I wasn’t feeling well. I had a loss of appetite, and I just wanted to get it off my chest, because it was making me feel even worse.) Later, I worried that I had judged them. I also worried that maybe I should have just bore the cross and suffered other people’s offenses, even if it was making me sick, and offer it up to Jesus.

So for the last few days I’ve been concerned that I’m not in a state of grace, and not feeling well on top of it all, I worry about what would happen to me if I didn’t recover.

Oh, sweetie, how could this be a sin? Someone treats you so badly it makes you sick, and you mention it to them? After a week? It might have been sinful if you had gone on the attack with verbal abuse and accusations about their character, but I don’t think anyone as gentle as you would be capable of that! The “judging” that you must not do is about the state of another person’s soul. As an intelligent being, you are required to judge actions as good or evil.

Actually, what you describe doing is what is always recommended in situations where there are interpersonal problems. You say to the other person, “When you did X, it made me feel Y.”

You seem to be confusing unpleasantness with sin. I’m sure it was difficult and unpleasant for you to speak to this person about the treatment you received. But even the Scriptures tell us to speak to a person who does wrong. And so do the Spiritual Works of Mercy.

Being a good Catholic does not mean being a doormat, although many people seem to think it does. It’s one thing to offer up your being mistreated. It’s a whole different thing when that mistreatment is making you sick. You should speak up against that kind of injustice.

Betsy

 

[Bookcat]

Thank you all so much. Bookcat, I also got your message. I’ve read all of the replies, and I am beginning to feel more at peace. What I am understanding, then (please correct me if I’m wrong) is that one does have to KNOW, really know, that something is mortal (not just wrong or a sin of some sort, but MORTAL), and decide to go ahead and do it any way for them to be in a state of mortal sin?

An example: I was feeling very sad a few days ago because of how someone was treating me. I talked to them about it, and mentioned their actions, and even the expression on their face. As I mentioned it though, I worried that maybe it was mortal. Worried, but didn’t know for a fact. I worried that it was judging, and that it was a mortal sin, but key word is “worried”, I didn’t “know” if it was or is a mortal sin. I confronted them because they were really hurting me, and after maybe a week I was miserable (on top of it all, I wasn’t feeling well. I had a loss of appetite, and I just wanted to get it off my chest, because it was making me feel even worse.) Later, I worried that I had judged them. I also worried that maybe I should have just bore the cross and suffered other people’s offenses, even if it was making me sick, and offer it up to Jesus.

So for the last few days I’ve been concerned that I’m not in a state of grace, and not feeling well on top of it all, I worry about what would happen to me if I didn’t recover.

You are very welcome.

YES. In order to commit a mortal sin one must know it is grave matter and also give full consent.

Even if what it was turns out to have been grave matter – if you did not know this it was not a mortal sin.

(one can feign ignorance too…but this is not sounding like you…in which case ones sin is worse…but again this is not what you describe. )

Now with a person with an ordinary or a lax conscience – they may at the time of action or prior to it --think – this may be a grave sin and have good reasons for and against even --and thus are in a true state of doubt --then in that case they need to find out what they can and make a good judgment then.

But a person with scruples or a tendency towards them --they will mistake their fears or worries --even during an action – to be doubts --which they really are not --they are fears …scruples. So in that case they should ignore their scruples (ie fears that it is mortal sin). Pass them by like the barking dog.

They can ask their confessor to tell them to ignore them…then they are VERY safe.

For a person who is seeking actively to follow Christ – if they commit a mortal sin --they will know it.

Regarding the worries you mentioned: they sound like scruples to me.
The fact even that you did not even think about it until later --with your sensitive conscience – that seems a good sign that you did not have the three requirements for mortal sin. maybe you committed a venial sin --maybe no sin at all.

It is also important to inform our conscience with the Catechism etc. For instance – it is not judging a person to speak to them about something they did to us…this is what Christ told us to do --if your brother sins against you …go tell him…if he repents forgive him… (not exact quote).

If a person is seeking to follow Christ and is good will… especially if they have scruples or a tendency to them …if they have doubt that they had the full knowledge and full consent with grave matter --they judge that they have not committed a mortal sin.

And then make an act of love and contrition …perhaps with holy water even …and continue on the road following Christ in joy.

Now you mentioned you were very sick and afraid you would not recover …if this is the case …one can always call a priest too! I say this for then you will also have the grace of the Sacraments.

 

[Shin]

The general rule is that, unless you know for sure that an action is gravely (seriously, mortally) wrong, you do not commit a mortal sin by doing the action. Of course, if the thought comes to you that a certain thing might be mortally sinful, before you do it, it’s best to refrain.

Another thing you might wish to do is to educate yourself about what specific actions constitute mortal sins. Take a look at this examination of conscience and you’ll get a feel for what one good priest considers mortal and venial. You should be able to extend this sense of what’s seriously sinful to other actions that are not on the list.

Remember that God loves you more than you love Him, and that He wants you with Him for all eternity. He’s not looking for ways to disqualify you from heaven. He’s not trying to nab you for some halfhearted uncharitable comment or thought. In order to separate yourself from Him, you have to really turn away from Him on purpose by disobeying in a serious matter.

Finally, it seems you do have a touch of scrupulosity. It might be very helpful for you to take up this question with the priest in confession in order to get some guidelines for yourself that would have the force (and safety) of obedience. Are you able to go to the same priest every time? It’s best if you can.

God bless you for caring so much!

Betsy

‘Let us now proceed. We have spoken of the examination regarding mortal and venial sins. But were a person to do an action with a doubt whether it was a mortal or a venial sin, what kind of sin would he commit? He would be guilty of mortal sin, because he exposes himself to the danger of grievously offending God. Hence, before he acts he must lay aside the doubt; and if he has not hitherto done so, he must confess it, at least, as it is before God. But the scrupulous, who have doubts about everything, must follow another rule: they must obey their confessor. When he tells them to conquer their doubts, and to act against scruples, they should obey with exactness; otherwise they will render themselves unable and unfit to perform any spiritual exercise.’

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

 

[Bookcat]

Added to edit after time limit. I made it green to show the edit. I wanted to add those points because not only do I worry after the fact, but sometimes I worry even in the midst of an action or statement (or even a few minutes or seconds before I say, do something). But see, I just noticed I used the word “worry”… Which brings me back to what I just quoted/edited: One has to KNOW for sure it is mortal, yes?

Yes this sounds like another scruple.

and yes a scruple both after the fact and during or even before the action.

(again note for others…who do not have scruples this is particularly for those who struggle with scruples…others may not experience these difficulties etc)

After the action that one did – where one did NOT have all three things required for mortal sin-- one worries or fears that ‘perhaps’ they committed a mortal sin still.

During the action/omission - one fears it is a mortal sin but again does not have the three requirements. (I am meaning just fears that are scruples not reasonable fears like the deer example I will get to later)

For instance you are in a conversation and right as you start to say something --even in mid- sentence – you “fear” is this moral sin (not that you see evidence that it could be that is certain and have time to stop)–and of course you most likely still say it for you were right in the middle of saying it (it is very hard to throw on the breaks at this point)

or you may realize what you saying is sinful but again it is difficult to stop mid-word or sentence…so it is said. And you fear – was this mortal?

Or after the fact of an action --you look back and fear --was this mortal? (even though at the time you did or omitted the thing you did not have the full knowledge of the sinfulness of the action --that it was a grave matter.

or before the action – one has fears that something is sinful but – from experience etc one realizes these are just scruples …just fears and that the Church does not say such and such is a sin and reason does not either…it is just another worry or perhaps…

All this is different from the example of a person with a normal conscience or even a person who has scruples but has certainty that they should not act – for instance
the person is hunting (this is the classic example --not a fan of hunting --though it is not sinful per se) --the person is hunting and he sees something moving up ahead in the bushes but can not see if it is deer or a person --he cannot shoot in that case --but must figure it out first…otherwise he is guilty of risking the life of a person even though it ends up being a deer…

this is very different than the fears that happen in the midst of saying something.

Scruples are fears and worries that get in the way of your joyfully following Christ fully.

it is one thing to realize what one is saying is sinful and another to realize it is serious detraction and go ahead and deliberately tell the person that so and so is an active though hidden homosxual.

With scruples --it is important to learn to ignore scruples. Also to get a regular good priest as a confessor and ask him to help one overcome them…

 

[Bookcat]

‘Let us now proceed. We have spoken of the examination regarding mortal and venial sins. But were a person to do an action with a doubt whether it was a mortal or a venial sin, what kind of sin would he commit? He would be guilty of mortal sin, because he exposes himself to the danger of grievously offending God. Hence, before he acts he must lay aside the doubt; and if he has not hitherto done so, he must confess it, at least, as it is before God. But the scrupulous, who have doubts about everything, must follow another rule: they must obey their confessor. When he tells them to conquer their doubts, and to act against scruples, they should obey with exactness; otherwise they will render themselves unable and unfit to perform any spiritual exercise.’

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

This is because the scruples are not “real doubts”…rather fears…scruples.

 

[Bookcat]

Yes, I was thinking about this. So then it sounds cleared up. “Unless you know for sure that it is Mortal”. Really? Is that all? Because if that is how it works (for lack of a better word) for both the scrupulous and non, then that gives me much relief :coolinoff:. No more “I think/feel/worry this-or-that was mortal or somehow sinful, therfore I fret that I’m in mortal sin”. It would only be “I KNOW that what I did without doubt, was mortal, and I did it anyway” that would be how to be in mortal sin. Yes?

Without the three requirements together – grave matter, full knowledge, and complete consent there is no mortal sin.

For a person with scruples (and it seems you have them to at least some degree) the further principle is that if they have doubt about any of those three at the time --they should feel certain that they did NOT commit a mortal sin.

It can be said that had THEY committed a mortal sin they would know it without a doubt.

 

[HisWill777]

I fully realize that everything in the Catholic faith isn’t in the Bible, but why wouldn’t mortal and venial sins be distinguished there? Jesus seemed to admonish many for various sins, and he didn’t distinguish by “types”, at least that I know of. Seriously curious, why does the Catholic Church feel it necessary? Do you only confess mortal sins? Thanks!

 

[La-Petite-Fleur]

Thank you, all. I hope I am better understanding this now, so that I can have more peace. The St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori quote frightens me though. Baltobetsy, I think I may have responded to your comment, but I must have lost my post without submitting it. I just want to say thank you, so much.

 

[Bookcat]

Yes, I was thinking about this. So then it sounds cleared up. “Unless you know for sure that it is Mortal”. Really? Is that all? Because if that is how it works (for lack of a better word) for both the scrupulous and non, then that gives me much relief :coolinoff:. No more “I think/feel/worry this-or-that was mortal or somehow sinful, therfore I fret that I’m in mortal sin”. It would only be “I KNOW that what I did without doubt, was mortal, and I did it anyway” that would be how to be in mortal sin. Yes?

It has also been common for confessors (one finds this in various works of moral theology) to give those who have scruples general rules to help them ignore the doubts.

So that they go only with certainty and set aside their doubts.

For in actuality they would judge that the person with such sensitivity would know very clearly if something was actually mortal sin…more so than a miser would know a thief…

 

[Bookcat]

I fully realize that everything in the Catholic faith isn’t in the Bible, but why wouldn’t mortal and venial sins be distinguished there? Jesus seemed to admonish many for various sins, and he didn’t distinguish by “types”, at least that I know of. Seriously curious, why does the Catholic Church feel it necessary? Do you only confess mortal sins? Thanks!

Mortal sins must be confessed (unless it is impossible or something like that)…but venial sins are good to confess but do not need to be forgiven in the sacrament.

Jesus spoke seriously about mortal sin…such as adultry and lust…Paul lists various sins which when mortal – keep on from entering the kingdom of God (unless repented).

John in his first letter speaks of deadly sin or mortal sin and those that are not deadly…

There is a BIG difference between Murder and telling a so called white lie.

 

[Bookcat]

A great line from Gerson if i recall right --but quoted by St. Alphonsius Ligori

“Contra scruplos agendum est, et fixo operis pede certandum”

(Act contrary to scruples and with a firm foot overcome them)

 

[La-Petite-Fleur]

Mortal sins must be confessed (unless it is impossible or something like that)…but venial sins are good to confess but do not need to be forgiven in the sacrament.

Jesus spoke seriously about mortal sin…such as adultry and lust…Paul lists various sins which when mortal – keep on from entering the kingdom of God (unless repented).

John in his first letter speaks of deadly sin or mortal sin and those that are not deadly…

There is a BIG difference between Murder and telling a so called white lie.

I received your messages, thank you ! So just to check to make sure once more that I’m understanding clearly:

For someone to enter into mortal sin, in what they do they must know that the sin is mortal (not just worry/fear that it is), rather than just feeling it is a sin in general of some sort?

In other words, if a person doesn’t know for fact if a certain action or comment is mortal, venial, or sinless and they go ahead and do it (often before stopping everything to do research for their conscience), then they are not in a state of mortal sin? And the same for those who suspect that something is a sin, but to what degree they do not know for fact (just that it may be a sin somehow maybe) then they too are not in a state of mortal sin, because even though they may have feared it was a mortal sin, because they did not KNOW for fact, they are then not damned because they at that point didn’t have full knowledge?