Sin and Salvation - Protestant view

[hurst]

jdc1084:

I’m a protestant, and this is what I’ve always been taught. …

If someone claims to be a Christian but lives in the ways of the world and doesn’t care to change, then they’re probably not what they say they are. You know a tree by its fruit. I always like the phrase “If saved, always saved” in place of “Once saved always saved.”

In other words, “saved” means “predestined to reach heaven”. Accordingly, we will only know who was ever saved if we see them in heaven.

OSAS/ISAS actually contradicts the very thing it purports to offer: security. For many may think they are saved always, only to find out later that they had never been saved to begin with.

This also poses a serious problem regarding baptism. Scripture makes it clear that we may only be baptized once:

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 Have moreover tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God, and making him a mockery…

It is a mockery of the Son of God to be baptised more than once. For baptism symbolizes our death with Christ crucified, and to do so again is like killing Him again in order to be cleansed of more sins. It is also implying His death was not sufficient for all our sins, even though we know He died once for all sins.

But perhaps they will say they must not have truly repented the first time, and that the first baptism didn’t “count”? They again contradict themselves by relying on their own efforts to “properly” repent, based on whether they live without falling away thereafter.

So they end by saying baptism is not necessary, but only a sign of faith. But scripture does say to believe and be baptised (Acts 2:38, Matt 28:19). But it says not to recrucify the Lord (Heb 6:6). What is one to do if they fall away and conclude they didn’t believe or repent properly, yet wish to do so now? They have to make it out that the first one didn’t count and that there was thus no re-crucifying to be done… But since they thought the previous one was proper (only to find out it couldn’t have been due to their having fallen away), then there is no certainty that this next one they do is done properly, either. Thus, there really is no security after all!

Both OSAS and ISAS are a game of make-believe with high stakes. The gamble is that if you believe strongly enough, then it will be true. If it turns out not being true, then you are at fault for “not believing enough”. In the name of relying on Christ, they ultimately rely only on themselves. That is what make-believe is.

“Mournful heresy!”. If you would only place your trust in the work of Christ manifested in His Church, you would have the consolation of knowing that the physical act of Baptism is valid regardless of how imperfectly you repent, because it places an indelible mark on your soul that cannot be removed. God does this in conjunction with the act! And you would have the consolation of being able to go to confession and have any later sins loosed by the priest’s ministry in Christ’s name by virtue of His One Sacrifice! And you would have the consolation of knowing that your own actions that you control will testify to you and others whether you are in the state of grace and have charity to others, and that if you fall short you can remedy it right away, without having to wait until some future unknown time to find out whether you had really believed or not! True Christian life is the reality of the cross, not the make-believe of overturning the Romans. We must find our joy in giving of ourselves, not in getting for ourselves.

hurst

 

[Matt16_18]

allischalmers:

I am still a calvinist, I beleive the God saves who he wants to save weather they want too or not

We also know that scriptures teaches that God desires all men to be saved. If what you say is true, why aren’t all men saved?

 

[Lazerlike42]

Matt16_18:

We also know that scriptures teaches that God desires all men to be saved. If what you say is true, why aren’t all men saved?

Lol oh no. I used to debate Calvanists all the time. This is the one question that always leads into a huge discussion.

 

[jdc1084]

So one’s way of life, actions so to speak on earth can affect whether the person is destined for heaven or hell … even though one’s faith is strong? What do you do in order to repent? Is repentence after the initial conversion needed? In the Catholic Church repentance is a cornerstone … it is how we reestablish our connection with Christ because during life we damage it by sin. Believe me … repenting before the Lord is not easy but after … you feel like a new man. I know many, if not all, Protestant/Fundamentalist find this practice unneeded but for us it is a Sacrament … it keeps us alive.

Your actions don’t save you or not save you. What I was trying to say was that if you truly are a Christian, you’re not going to go around with the mind set, “It’s okay for me to sin, because I’ll be forgiven.” But everyone messes up and sins, even if they strive not to. As far as repenting, it is very much a part of what protestants believe. If you are truly sorry and you repent and turn from those sinful ways, then you’ll be forgiven. To go around thinking you can get away with sinning because you’ll be forgiven in the end wouldn’t be a repentant attitude, since part of repenting is turning away from that sin. How could you say you love God when you purposely do things you know he detests? You must repent and turn away from your sins.
Think about if you were married and loved your spouse very much. You’re not going to go around and cheat on them or talk bad about them to others and then go home and say “I love you!” to that spouse. How could you really love them if you did those things to them?

If it is a “If” saved, how do I know for sure that my act of faith took or for you to know if yours took? I’m sure all people who believe in once saved, always saved believe that theirs took. “I don’t know about anyone else… but I know mine took”.

The minister who many years ago accepted Christ, studied, preached and ministered but is involved in an adulterous affair and dies in a car crash during a liason. Does his congregation still believe he is still saved no matter what (his perseverence failing) or do they then say that his act of faith those many years ago didn’t take even though he fully believed it did?

If either the former or the latter, how can anyone truly know if their own acceptance and faith in Christ took?

First of all, it’s only between God and the person as to whether they are saved or not. As far as that minister goes that you mention, his congregation may speculate if he’s in heaven or not all they want, but ultimately, God’s the only one that knows that man’s heart. Granted, he was living a sinful lifestyle in having an affair, and I’m sure that would shake the faith his congregation had in him quite a bit. Obviously that man had some serious issues going on in his life that God would not be pleased about, but like I said, ultimately,God is the only one that knows if that man’s heart was right with him or not.

As far as anyone knowing if their faith ‘took’ or not, at the end of 1 John, John writes, “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.” - 1 John 5:13 Then there’s also the classic John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever belives in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.” There doesn’t need to be any wondering ‘if my faith took’ because you know if you belive something to be true or not. So if you believe in Jesus and are following him with all your heart, then you’re good to go

 

[jdc1084]

Okay, now that I finished reading through the thread, I’ve got one more post, then I’m done for the night.

Well I am still a calvinist, I beleive the God saves who he wants to save weather they want too or not and I believe that when you sin that you spoil your your relationship with God and that Holy Spirit will make you aware of your sins. You can renew your relationship by confessing this sin to God in prayer.
However if a person falls into a pattern of habitual sin and there is never any repenance God has no choice but to call that person home. However they will not lose their salvation.

Hmm… I don’t know about this. Yes, the gift of salvation is a gift from God that he can give to anyone he wants. But you do make it sound rather like we have no free will in the matter. God has all the angels he wants that can praise him all day long. He could have made all the humans he wanted and programmed them to love him. But where would be the point in that? He wanted us to choose him out of our free will.

If someone “falls into a pattern of habitual sin and there is never any repenance” then they sure aren’t living a lifestyle pleasing to God. Not to say Christians are always squeeky clean. Even our best deeds are dirty rags to the Lord, as the Bible says. But to deny God and choose not to follow him…

What scripture do you have that backs up predestination? I’m a Baptist too, but the churches I’ve been a part of haven’t believed in predestination at all. I can’t find any scriptural reference to it.

“Mournful heresy!”. If you would only place your trust in the work of Christ manifested in His Church, you would have the consolation of knowing that the physical act of Baptism is valid regardless of how imperfectly you repent, because it places an indelible mark on your soul that cannot be removed. God does this in conjunction with the act! And you would have the consolation of being able to go to confession and have any later sins loosed by the priest’s ministry in Christ’s name by virtue of His One Sacrifice! And you would have the consolation of knowing that your own actions that you control will testify to you and others whether you are in the state of grace and have charity to others, and that if you fall short you can remedy it right away, without having to wait until some future unknown time to find out whether you had really believed or not! True Christian life is the reality of the cross, not the make-believe of overturning the Romans. We must find our joy in giving of ourselves, not in getting for ourselves.

Whoa, I think you got off on a tangent there. You said something earlier about crucifying Christ all over again when someone is Baptised twice. I don’t really have much an opinion on the subject myself, but how is yall’s saying that when you take the bread and wine and it turns into Jesus again not the same thing? But I don’t want to start something that doesn’t really relate to this thread. Just my opinion though.

As far as ‘having consolation’ for this and that, I have consolation every time I pray to our Lord for forgiveness. I have consolation every time I pray at all, for that matter. To have that personal relationship with our Lord is great consolation for many things. What’s that verse? “If You are with me, who can be against me.” Something like that. Very true.

 

[Veritas41]

I used to be a Calvinist, so I believed “once saved, always saved.” Most of my Protestant friends belonged to churches that taught that, even if they weren’t Calvinistic in theology. We all believed that someone who was “truly saved” would show evidence of this in his life. If someone committed a “big” sin (like murder or adultery), there would be concern as to whether that person was “truly saved” or not. This idea bred alot of judgmentalism --judging whether someone was “truly saved” based on what sins they committed. Thankfully becoming Catholic has enabled me to leave that kind of attitude behind. But “OSAS” believers believe “true Christians” can be backslidden, meaning they may go through a period in their lives where they’re not really living for the Lord. But then you get into the problem between distinguishing whether someone is just backslidden or if he was never really saved to begin with. I remember my Reformed Baptist pastor saying one time during a sermon that sometimes he would be so overwhelmed by his sin (and he didn’t live a sinful life) that he sometimes wondered if he were truly saved. Once an evangelist came and told us about a church he had visited several times as an evangelist. Every time he preached there, the same old lady would come forward to “get saved.” The existence of sin in her life (I guess she may have suffered from scrupulosity) led her to believe she hadn’t truly accepted Christ before and been truly saved, so she repeated this acceptance of Christ in hopes it would finally be the real thing. OSAS can be reassuring for someone who has strong faith and leads an obedient life, but for those with weaker faith who struggle with sin, it can lead to such confusion and doubt.

 

[allischalmers]

Hi all
jdc1084 asked what scripture backs up predestination. How about the whole first chapter of Ephesians. And how about what some call the “doctrine of election”, would Romans 9:21 do “Hath not the potter have power over the clay,of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour”

forever Baptist
allischalmers

 

[Contarini]

ncgolf:

What in your tradition is used to re-establish the relationship if damaged by sin? Is it formal … like the Sacrament of Reconciliation in the CC or is it personal prayer?

Well, I myself am an Episcopalian, and we have the Sacrament of Reconciliation, though it is not required. We have a corporate confession and absolution in the liturgy, and those who feel the need are encouraged to seek out a priest for private confession.

My background is in the “Wesleyan” tradition (Methodists, etc.). Methodists and other Wesleyans tend to be more Protestant on this. But early Methodists had something called “class meetings” in which the leader would keep people accountable, and part of that involved confessing each week how you had fallen short. Today most Methodists simply rely on “private prayer” as you put it. That is one of the reasons why I am an Anglican (I’m married to a Methodist and attend a Methodist as well as an Episcopal church, so I’m basically between the two traditions, which are closely related anyway).

Edwin

 

[Matt16_18]

jdc1084:

You must repent and turn away from your sins.

So what about the “saved” man that both backslides into his old way of living and also and dies unrepentant for doing that? Do the Gospels teach that the unrepentant apostate backslider is going to Heaven?

 

[allischalmers]

Hi
If God has saved you and I mean GOD has saved you, not saying a sinners prayer ,not excepting Jesus Christ into your heart, ( by the way Jesus Christ excepts you not you him) not even baptism but when GOD saved you he promised to forgive ALL your sins.
The only thing an unrepentant sinner does is spoil their relationship with Christ but God’s promise of eternal life is forever.

forever Baptist
allischalmers

 

[johnpaullover]

ncgolf:

I have read many Protestant/Fundamentalist posts on salvation and how it cannot be lost after proclaiming faith in Jesus Christ. Where does sin fall into this? After proclaiming faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior do sins committed after this harm that relationship? Can a person sin after this conversion or is a person immune to sin and if he does sin does repentance play any part?

Is there a relationship between sin and salvation?

It very much depends on the Protestant. Baptists and Presbyterians tend to chant “Once saved, always saved”, but Lutherans, Anglicans, and lots of others a have similar, not identical, views as Catholics. Lutherans say that it is possible to lose your salvation by sin, especially by despair.

 

[McKenzie]

allischalmers:

Hi
If God has saved you and I mean GOD has saved you, not saying a sinners prayer ,not excepting Jesus Christ into your heart, ( by the way Jesus Christ excepts you not you him) not even baptism but when GOD saved you he promised to forgive ALL your sins.
The only thing an unrepentant sinner does is spoil their relationship with Christ but God’s promise of eternal life is forever.

forever Baptist
allischalmers

So are you saying then, since scripture says God wants all to be saved, that everyone (past, present and future) is in heaven or going to be in heaven?

 

[javelin]

A question for everyone, related to this:

jdc1084:

As far as anyone knowing if their faith ‘took’ or not, at the end of 1 John, John writes, “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.” - 1 John 5:13 Then there’s also the classic John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever belives in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.”

This may sound crazy, but where does it say that the “eternal life” spoken of here is eternally with God? Could it be that once we are given eternal life, we have the ability to choose whom to live it with – God, or ourselves?

Like the prodigal son, taking his inheritance out “on his own”?

Just a passing thought…

Peace,
javelin

 

[javelin]

Any more thoughts on this?

 

[Philthy]

Elzee:

An OSAS friend told me once that while sin ‘displeases’ God nothing she can do can take away his promise of salvation because she has accepted him as her Lord and Savior.

But, when I asked "What does Him being ‘Lord’ mean? Doesn’t it mean you are under his discipline, under his command? If you deliberately and willfully do not follow His commands and commit a sin such as adultery, is He really your ‘Lord’ at that moment? "

She said she’d have to get back to me. That was almost a year ago.

“Why do you call me Lord, yet you do not do as I command?”

 

[sandusky]

javelin:

A question for everyone, related to this:

This may sound crazy, but where does it say that the “eternal life” spoken of here is eternally with God? Could it be that once we are given eternal life, we have the ability to choose whom to live it with – God, or ourselves?

Like the prodigal son, taking his inheritance out “on his own”?

Just a passing thought…

Peace,
javelin

The definition of eternal in scripture is defined mainly on the basis of its usage throughout the gospels and epistles. “Eternal life” is always used in relation to final salvation, in heaven, in the presence of God.

Even the unbeliever has eternal life, but his eternal life is spoken of in terms of eternal condemnation, damnation, cast into outer darkness, etc., and so on, and so forth.

 

[allischalmers]

Hi;
What I said was that if God saved you and that is the only way that you will be saved then he promises you eternal life to be with him forever. Yes God wants every one to be saved, every one that he has chosen. Romans 9;21 read it!

forever Baptist
allischalmers

 

[AquinasXVI]

Reading this entire thread just makes me even more thankful for the common sense and absolute necessity of having the Sacrament of Reconciliation…it is biblically and historically clear, conscise, humiliating, edifying and gratefully liberating. It is sad that non catholics criticize this Catholic sacrament yet their conscience looks for it and gets somewhat satisfied in their own denom’s way of dealing with sin (whether in their theology of OSAS or a makeshift imitation of the Sacrament of Reconcilliation). But as Catholics who can trace the laying of hands all the way back to the 12 apostles, there’s a solid comfort that when the priest says " I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit"…we know it to be true…no questions asked, clean as the day of Baptism!

God bless…great thread.

in XT.

 

[Philthy]

jdc1084:

Your actions don’t save you or not save you. … How could you say you love God when you purposely do things you know he detests? You must repent and turn away from your sins.

Repenting and turning away from your sins is an action my friend. You started with a statement and finished by contradicting it. Otherwise your “you must repent” is a meaningless threat. What is the consequence if you dont?

jdc1084:

God’s the only one that knows that man’s heart. … ultimately,God is the only one that knows if that man’s heart was right with him or not…There doesn’t need to be any wondering ‘if my faith took’ because you know if you belive something to be true or not.

And here you did it again. “Only God knows”, but there is no need to wonder because “you know”…That is what you call a contradiction, unless you are proposing the believer to be God.

 

[Philthy]

jdc1084:

Your actions don’t save you or not save you. … How could you say you love God when you purposely do things you know he detests? You must repent and turn away from your sins.

Repenting and turning away from your sins is an action my friend. You started with a statement and finished by contradicting it.

jdc1084:

God’s the only one that knows that man’s heart. … ultimately,God is the only one that knows if that man’s heart was right with him or not…There doesn’t need to be any wondering ‘if my faith took’ because you know if you belive something to be true or not.

And here you did it again. “Only God knows”, but there is no need to wonder because “you know”…That is what you call a contradiction, unless you are proposing the believer to be God.