Sin and Salvation - Protestant view

[ncgolf]

NonDenom:

Hi nc
You bet I repent. I pray to God for forgivness and the strength to overcome the next time I’m tempted. I also believe that if a person
isn’t truly sorry for the sin that they have commited, they can’t truly repent or turn away from that sin. This would make them a hypocrite. I once heard it said that a hypocrite is someone who is sorry on Sunday for what they did on Saturday but fully intend to do again on Monday. I also try to remember that Christ not only died for the sins that I’ve commited, but also every sin that I’m going to commit, which helps give me the strength to fight off that temptation.
In Him and Only Him

So what do you think of the Catholic position on repentence? It is so important that it is one of the seven Sacraments in the Catholic Church. I think that once you see sin for what it is repentence becomes all the more important. Not so much other people’s sin but your own.

In the Catholic Church when one uses the Sacrament of Reconciliation the priest forgives your sins … not using his name and power but the name and person of Jesus Christ.

How do you know your sins are forgiven?

 

[NonDenom]

So what do you think of the Catholic position on repentence? It is so important that it is one of the seven Sacraments in the Catholic Church. I think that once you see sin for what it is repentence becomes all the more important. Not so much other people’s sin but your own.

In the Catholic Church when one uses the Sacrament of Reconciliation the priest forgives your sins … not using his name and power but the name and person of Jesus Christ.

How do you know your sins are forgiven?

Hi
First of all,your priest can’t forgive you of your sins, he may forgive you for something that you’ve done to him, but not sins commited against Jesus. Jesus paid the price.
Secondly, Gods tells us thru his Holy Sriptures that he will forgive those who ask him for forgiveness.
*2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. *
*Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: *
*Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. *
*Mar 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. *
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

There are more, but I think you get it.
In Him and Only Him

 

[Nicene]

NonDenom:

Hi
First of all,your priest can’t forgive you of your sins, he may forgive you for something that you’ve done to him, but not sins commited against Jesus. Jesus paid the price.

There are more, but I think you get it.
In Him and Only Him

That contradicts scripture, making Christs statements about giving the power to retain or forgive sin null. It states Christ didn’t have that power. Is it your position that Christ could not fulfill what he said when he granted this?

John 20: 21: Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”
22: And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
23: If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Mt 9:6: But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" – he then said to the paralytic – “Rise, take up your bed and go home.”
7: And he rose and went home.
8: When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men.

Mt 18:18: Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

2 Cor 2:10: Any one whom you forgive, I also forgive. What I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ,

2 Cor 5:18: All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;

James 5:15: and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
16: Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

Acts 19:18: Many also of those who were now believers came, confessing and divulging their

1 Tim 6:12: Fight the good fight of the faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.practices.

1 John 1:9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Secondly, Gods tells us thru his Holy Sriptures that he will forgive those who ask him for forgiveness.

Indeed He does as has been shown above with Christ conferring this to the apostles and their successors, and they in turn practicing this ability. Either they misunderstood Christ or scripture is errant. Which do you believe it is?

There are more, but I think you get it.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[allischalmers]

Hi
Well I guess that this thread is about done so I think that I will move on but I leave one last thought. Matthew 22:14 For many are called but few are chosen,

Good bye, I know I am right
allischalmers

 

[Philthy]

allischalmers:

Hi
Well I guess that this thread is about done

Done?! It seems like the only thing that is done is your ability to to consolidate (you’ll have to look it up) your contradictory opinions. It appears that you have decided to run rather than face the music…thats OK - we understand. Im sorry if it got a little too hot for you…

allischalmers:

so I think that I will move on but I leave one last thought. Matthew 22:14 For many are called but few are chosen,

Just for the record, that’s not a thought, its a statement.

allischalmers:

Good bye, I know I am right
allischalmers

Oh we don’t doubt that - allis, why would we? I can’t imagine why you would even make such a statement - its obvious from the posts, no? Take care allis. Please just remember that if you cant stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

 

[ncgolf]

NonDenom:

Hi
First of all,your priest can’t forgive you of your sins, he may forgive you for something that you’ve done to him, but not sins commited against Jesus. Jesus paid the price.

*Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: *
*Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. *
*Mar 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. *

There are more, but I think you get it.
In Him and Only Him

I get the feeling it is a question of authority. The passages in the Gospels you cited show that the Jewish leadership knew that a mere man could not forgive sin and that was true. Sin, as the Jews knew, could only be forgiven by God, He is transgressed by each and every sin. Jesus claimed to and indeed have the authority to forgive sins. For the Jewish leaders the person either had God or a blasphemer. We know how that ended. It is clear in John 20:21-23 that the authority to forgive sin is passed on … to the apostles present in the upper room. Peter and the others could forgive sin in Jesus’s name. Only a person who’s authority can be traced back to the those present in that room described by John can forgive sin. Catholic priests have that lineage and authority.

If you lived in Christ’s time but never met Christ but you did meet Peter and he forgave you … he would have forgiven you not in his own name (his name carries no authority) but Christ’s. Christ gave Peter the same authority as Christ commanded on earth. That is the only way it works … if one can demonstrate that the authority was given and passed on. It would have been the same as Christ physically being there to minister to you.

 

[javelin]

NonDenom:

Hi
First of all,your priest can’t forgive you of your sins, he may forgive you for something that you’ve done to him, but not sins commited against Jesus. Jesus paid the price.
Secondly, Gods tells us thru his Holy Sriptures that he will forgive those who ask him for forgiveness.
*2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. *
*Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: *
*Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. *
*Mar 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. *
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

There are more, but I think you get it.
In Him and Only Him

Hello!

Just the other week I took my children to the store and gave them each a few dollars to pick out a gift for their mom. They happily did so, even giving the money to the cashier themselves.

So, who really bought the gifts for my wife?

See the connection?

Peace,
javelin

 

[USMC]

NonDenom:

Hi
First of all,your priest can’t forgive you of your sins, he may forgive you for something that you’ve done to him, but not sins commited against Jesus. Jesus paid the price.

In addition to what the others have written, I thought I would post some quotes from the Church Fathers to show that they all believed exactly what Catholics today believe.

St. Augustine: “When you hear a man lay bare his conscience in confession, he has already come forth from the sepulcher; but he is not yet unbound. When is he unbound? By whom is he unbound? “Whatever you loose on earth,” Christ says to His priests, “shall be loosed in Heaven” (Mt 18:18, 16:19)… Let no one say to me I do penance (confess) in my heart; I confess all my sins to God and to God alone: it is He Who must forgive me.” Then in vain was it said to the Apostles: “Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven, and whose sons you retain, they are retained” (Jn 20:23). Thus, you make a mockery of the Gospel! " (St. Augustine, Explanation of the Psalms, circa 400AD)

Origen: “If we have revealed our sins not only to God but also to those who are able to heal our wounds and sins, our sins will be blotted out.” (Origen - On Luke Homily 17, circa 250AD)

St. John Chrysostom: "Priests have received a power which God has given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was said to them: ‘Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose, shall be loosed.’ (Mt 18:18) Temporal rulers have indeed the power of binding; but they can only bind the body. Priests, in contrast, can bind with a bond which pertains to the soul itself and transcends the very heavens. Did [God] not give them all the powers of heaven? ‘Whose sins you shall forgive,’ he says, ‘they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.’ (Jn 20:21) What greater power is there than this? The Father has given all judgment to the Son. And now I see the Son placing all this power in the hands of men." (The Priesthood 3:5 [A.D. 387])

Tertullian: “[Regarding confession, some] flee from this work as being an exposure of themselves, or they put it off from day to day. I presume they are more mindful of modesty than of salvation, like those who contract a disease in the more shameful parts of the body and shun making themselves known to the physicians; and thus they perish along with their own bashfulness” (Tertullian, Repentance 10:1 [A.D. 203]).

Tertullian: “Is it better to be damned in secret than to be absolved in public?..If you draw back from Confession, reflect in your heart on that fire of Hell which Confession will quench for you” (Tertullian - On Penance, circa 200AD)

Tertullian: “The Church has the power of forgiving sins. This I acknowledge and adjudge” (Tertullian., 21 circa 200AD).

St. Cyprian of Carthage: "Of how much greater faith and salutary fear are they who . . . confess their sins to the priests of God in a straightforward manner and in sorrow, making an open declaration of conscience. . . . I beseech you, brethren, let everyone who has sinned confess his sin while he is still in this world, while his confession is still admissible, while the satisfaction and remission made through the priests are still pleasing before the Lord" (Cyprian of Carthage, 28, circa 250 AD).

St. Jerome: “We read in Leviticus about lepers, where they are ordered to show themselves to the priests, and if they have leprosy, then they are to be declared unclean by the priest. . . . Just as in the Old Testament the priest makes the leper clean or unclean, so in the New Testament the bishop or presbyter (priest) binds or looses not those who are innocent or guilty, but by reason of their office, when they have heard various kinds of sins, they know who is to be bound and who is to be loosed.” (St. Jerome, Commentary on Matthew [A.D. 398])

St. Ambrose: “If you want to be justified, confess your sin… Confession delivers the Soul from death. Confession opens the door to Heaven. Confession brings us hope of salvation. The man who, during life, does not confess his sin will not be saved. Without the confession of his sin, no man can be justified” (St. Ambrose, On Repentance, circa 365AD).

St. Augustine: “All mortal sins are to be submitted to the keys of the Church and all can be forgiven: but recourse to these keys is the only, the necessary, and the certain way to forgiveness. Unless those who are guilty of grievous sin have recourse to the powers of the keys, they cannot hope for eternal salvation. Open your lips, then, and confess your sins to the priest. Confession alone is the true gate of heaven”. (St. Augustine, Christian combat PL40:289)

 

[NonDenom]

John 20: 21: Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”
22: And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
23: If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Mt 9:6: But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" – he then said to the paralytic – “Rise, take up your bed and go home.”
7: And he rose and went home.
8: When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men.

Mt 18:18: Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

2 Cor 2:10: Any one whom you forgive, I also forgive. What I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ,

2 Cor 5:18: All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;

James 5:15: and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
16: Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

Acts 19:18: Many also of those who were now believers came, confessing and divulging their

1 Tim 6:12: Fight the good fight of the faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.practices.

1 John 1:9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Indeed He does as has been shown above with Christ conferring this to the apostles and their successors, and they in turn practicing this ability. Either they misunderstood Christ or scripture is errant. Which do you believe it is?

Hi
In reading the scriptures above I see where Christ gave that ability to the Apostles, but I don’t read anything about passing that ability on to the leaders of the church throughout all generations of the church.
Verse 16 tell us to confess our sins to “one another” not just to a priest, which if I’m not mistaken, the CC says that you must confess your sins to priest in order to recieve forgivness.
In Him and Only Him

 

[Nicene]

NonDenom:

Hi
In reading the scriptures above I see where Christ gave that ability to the Apostles, but I don’t read anything about passing that ability on to the leaders of the church throughout all generations of the church.
Verse 16 tell us to confess our sins to “one another” not just to a priest, which if I’m not mistaken, the CC says that you must confess your sins to priest in order to recieve forgivness.
In Him and Only Him

So the ability died out with the apostles, according to this view. Can you support this view scripturally please? If not scripturally by what tradition do you draw this from?

When the apostles set up the offices of bishops and presbyters (priests) they set up empty offices devoid of any power from Christ? Does your tradition also teach that the Holy Spirit is not conferred on a catechumen or did this ability die out as well? How does this impact Christs words “I will be with you always even to the end of the age?” and The Holy Spirit will guide them into all truth. Did these pass away as well?

Does your denomination confess to one another it’s sins each week? If they are confessing to one another, do they have the power to forgive sin? Or is this part of the bible no longer applicable? Can you show scripturally when this practice ceased? I would highly recommend looking into the early church and studying it’s developement.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Nicene]

Verse 16 tell us to confess our sins to “one another” not just to a priest, which if I’m not mistaken, the CC says that you must confess your sins to priest in order to recieve forgivness.

I noticed you skipped v15 as well in James, any particular reason? Is the sick man no longer forgiven after the apostles died, the ability lost? (note: it isn’t the apostles who are diong the praying according to James, but other men, as we notice in v14:

14: Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15: and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16: Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

If it only applies to the apostles, and not their successors, isn’t James in error when he teaches the elders they can do this?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[desire_the_end]

Lazerlike42:

Lol oh no. I used to debate Calvanists all the time. This is the one question that always leads into a huge discussion.

hahahaha you bet!

I’ll assume the role:
What Timothy means is that God desires that all KINDS of men be saved. That is, humans souls from every race and continent. He only desires the salvation of His elect.

Yeah. I don’t think so. Timmy is pretty straight-forward. Next.

 

[SemperJase]

desire the end:

What Timothy means is that God desires that all KINDS of men be saved. That is, humans souls from every race and continent. He only desires the salvation of His elect.

Yeah. I don’t think so. Timmy is pretty straight-forward. Next.

That is one of the verses that puts calvinists in the awkward position of believing the bible doesn’t mean what it says. A position further complicated by how they only believe what can be found in the bible. If the Bible doesn’t say what it means and mean what it says, how is it reliable enough to be the foundation for faith?

 

[desire_the_end]

Now, I usually debate with Calvinists…And they’re quite learned. And I mean this of no disrespect, but…allischalmers, is English your mother togue?

 

[allischalmers]

To desire to end;
why do’nt you read the thread " can believers lose their salvation"

forever Baptist
allischalmers

 

[NonDenom]

So the ability died out with the apostles, according to this view. Can you support this view scripturally please? If not scripturally by what tradition do you draw this from?

Jesus gave the Apostles the ability to heal and perform miracles, but we don’y have the ability to heal today, we can anoint with oil and pray for healing but it is God who is performing the actual miracle.

When the apostles set up the offices of bishops and presbyters (priests) they set up empty offices devoid of any power from Christ? Does your tradition also teach that the Holy Spirit is not conferred on a catechumen or did this ability die out as well? How does this impact Christs words “I will be with you always even to the end of the age?” and The Holy Spirit will guide them into all truth. Did these pass away as well?

Any power we have is through Christ, I don’t have any special powers, nor do the leaders of any church. I don’t recall saying that the Holy Spirit isnt conferred in one who is being taught the principles of Christianity. Since when does our inability to forgive sins keep Christ from being with us till the end of the age or guidence from the Holy Spirit?.

Does your denomination

I don’t belong to a denomination.

confess to one another it’s sins each week?

I have a couple of friends or accountability partners that I go and talk to about the problems that I have or sins that I’m dealing with, we pray with each other to God for help in overcomming those sins we are haveing problems with, but my friends cannot forgive my sins. Jesus paid the price for my sins, he is the one I must go to for forgiveness.

In Him and Only Him

 

[Sherlock]

NonDenom:

Jesus gave the Apostles the ability to heal and perform miracles, but we don’y have the ability to heal today, we can anoint with oil and pray for healing but it is God who is performing the actual miracle.

The important item to note is that, as you say, “Jesus gave the Apostles the ability…”. God is ultimately the one doing the work, using the Apostles as His chosen instruments. The ability to heal and perform miracles today is no different: those who can heal and perform miracles (and I don’t know why you think that’s not happening) have that ability because of God.

NonDenom:

Any power we have is through Christ, I don’t have any special powers, nor do the leaders of any church.

You may not have gifts that you’re aware of, but that doesn’t mean that others don’t. Padre Pio comes to mind, as well as the many saints through history. However, I agree with you that the power comes through Christ.

NonDenom:

Since when does our inability to forgive sins keep Christ from being with us till the end of the age or guidence from the Holy Spirit?.

I’m not sure what you’re saying here. Christ *did * give us the means by which we can have serious sin forgiven. John 20: 21: Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” That’s a big huge deal. The only other time God breathes on man is when He gave Adam life. He is conferring, by this very significant and singular act, a bit of divine authority, the authority to forgive and bind the sins of others.

NonDenom:

I don’t belong to a denomination.

I used to attend a “non-denominational” church from time to time in my Protestant years. It looked like a denomination; sounded like a denomination; acted like a denomination. Ultimately, I had to admit that the name of the denomination was “non-denominational”, as there was nothing to distinguish it as not being a denomination from those churches that didn’t have a fear of the term.

NonDenom:

I have a couple of friends or accountability partners that I go and talk to about the problems that I have or sins that I’m dealing with, we pray with each other to God for help in overcomming those sins we are haveing problems with, but my friends cannot forgive my sins. Jesus paid the price for my sins, he is the one I must go to for forgiveness.

I think what you’re doing is very commendable, and more Christians should develop that kind of support in their friendships. Kudos to you. However, you’re absolutely right: your friends have no ability to make your sins right with God in heaven, or to bind them (not forgive) and effect that non-forgiveness in heaven. Jesus gave that authority only to His Apostles and their successors.

 

[JezCat]

Protestants believe that anyone who has accepted Jesus as his “personal saviour” is “saved”, or guaranteed salvation. The problem lies with all those who fall away from their faith, to which Protestants reply, “They never truly accepted Jesus as their saviour” and therefore “Were never truly saved to begin with”.

The huge conflict that this response causes, to which Protestants ignore when confronted, is what it says about their supposed “assurance” of salvation. Let’s say today you accept Jesus completely and are “saved” and “assured” right? Then ten years down the road you completely fall away from your faith into atheism because of whatever, and now you are one of the “never truly saved”.

The problem is what happened to their “assurance” they had for the last ten years? Nothing’s assured if it can be lost right? So in the end, every Protestant’s salvation is dependent upon their continued belief and life as a Christian or they too will become one of the “never truly saved” crowd.

This is why I tell everyone that Catholics and Protestants for the most part have the same view of salvation. The difference is in the semantics. There are certain Protestants who stubbornly believe that even if and when a person falls away and repeatedly commits mortal sins and denys their faith, their salvation still remains unchanged. This is where the term “license to sin” and “get-out-of-hell-free card” come from.

 

[BennyD]

I’m a protestant and i believe you can lose your salvation after proclaiming your faith.

 

[Sherlock]

BennyD:

I’m a protestant and i believe you can lose your salvation after proclaiming your faith.

Yes, but other Protestants think differently and think that you’re wrong. Since all Protestants are relying on the Bible alone, by what authority do you say that they’re wrong, and you’re right? Just curious.