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bjcros
Guest
What is the difference between mortal sin and other sin? Can a believer who has been saved, lose their salvation?
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jimmy
Guest
Yes, you can lose your salvation. Every man and woman has free will to accept God or to reject him. We are saved by both faith and works, so it can not be once saved always saved.
A mortal sin is a serious sin done with full knowledge of what is being done and what the consequences are and done with free will. All mortal sins are a complete rejection of God. It is like turning your back on God.
A venial sin is a sin that is either not serious or not done with full consent or not done with full knowledge. It could be something that is a serious act, but if it is not with free will or full knowledge then it is not a mortal sin. It might not even be a sin at all.
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bjcros
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Alright first of all I don’t see any difference in sin. Sin is sin. Every sin has the same penalty which is death. So your not saved by faith or works. but rather grace. without grace there wouldn’t be forgiveness. If my sin has been paid for by Christ then God wouldn’t punish the same sin twice. We play no part in our salvation. It isn’t by works. If God choose you then you will believe in him and accept his sons forgiveness. Even the proper Catholic belief is that you are saved by grace. rather than works.You should argue that if you really were a believer you wouldn’t lose your faith. So the answer is no you can’t lose your salvation.
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Scott_Waddell
Guest
Paul thought there was some sins that were deadly and some that were not. I am unable locate the Scripture at the moment. Perhaps someone can help out here.
Also, if you are certain is no difference, why did you bother asking the question?
Scott
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bjcros
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Scott Waddell:
I asked the question to get the Catholic response and to start a discussion, and I’m not exactly certain. I don’t think that we should make a distinction between sins, b/c God doesn’t make any of these distinctions. This much is clear. God hates sin and cannot be near it.
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jimmy
Guest
First, sin is sin, but not all sins are equal. Yes they all cause our death, but they are not the same. Murder is far worse than a small lie. It is also a far bigger rejection of God. Also, if I think through a sin and know the consequences and know how wrong it is, but I persist in the evil sin, that is very bad. It is not nearly as bad if I did not know it was wrong and if I didn’t think through it like this.
Yes, you are saved by the grace of God. This can be seen in the council of Trent session 6, but we are saved by the co-operation with this grace. We have the free will to accept or to reject this grace as we please. We do that through our faith and works, so we are saved by our faith and works. Christ constantly exhorted his disciples to do good works. Especially when he told the rich man to give up everything he owned and to follow Christ. He also said in Matt.25 that, at the judgement, he will seperate the flock according to there works. He will send away those who did not feed him when he was hungry, or give him water when he was thirsty. James also says that we are justified by works.
Christ’s sacrifice is not a legal payment for our sins, it is more like a reconciliation with God. God can easily punish us if he wants becuase it is not a legal punishment. If it were a legal punishment, then God would have to allow every person into heaven because Christ died for all of our sins, and God could not punish twice for sins.
God gave us free will to accept him or to reject him. We do this through each of our actions and through our faith. We can easily turn on God and say I would rather do this than know you. Of course though, if we are repentant of our sins, then we will certainly be forgiven.
The Catholic Church does teach salvation through grace, but we have the free will to accept that grace or reject it. Our salvation comes by our co-operation with the unmerited grace of God. The Church does not teach once saved always saved. We always have our free will. We can fall away from the faith at anytime. The Catholic Church teaches that all are chosen by God for salvation, but not all accept the call.
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jimmy
Guest
Scott Waddell:
“If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not {leading} to death, he shall ask and {God} will for him give life to those who commit sin not {leading} to death. There is a sin {leading} to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.”
1John5;16
“If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not {leading} to death, he shall ask and {God} will for him give life to those who commit sin not {leading} to death. There is a sin {leading} to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.”
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Church_Militant
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bjcros said:
We call it “mortal sin”. This and other passages differentiate between the two (as in the passage about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit).
Now who am I likely to believe? Grace and faith are gifts from God, but if we do not choose to cooperate with those gifts then we are eternal toast. The NT clearly tells us that faith demonstartes itself by the works that it produces.
(You know I’m gonna quote James on ya …) James 2:14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? 15 And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food:
16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? 17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way? 26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.
Sorry…that just doesn’t wash…at all, at all.
Really? Then what does this mean? 1st John 5:16 He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death: for that I say not that any man ask. 17 All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death.
We call it “mortal sin”. This and other passages differentiate between the two (as in the passage about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit).
You certainly have changed the “Gospel” from all we’ve heard from all the other Protestants that have wandered through here, as well as what we ourselves have learned from the Church.
Now who am I likely to believe? Grace and faith are gifts from God, but if we do not choose to cooperate with those gifts then we are eternal toast. The NT clearly tells us that faith demonstartes itself by the works that it produces.(You know I’m gonna quote James on ya …) James 2:14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? 15 And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food:
16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? 17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way? 26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.
No Catholic would disagree with this statement…
So…you are a strict Calvinist. Sorry…no can do. Calvinism is ludicrous since it makes us a bunch of spiritual robots with no free will to truly love and serve God.
So then a Calvinist who “gets saved” and then before he dies goes postal and shoots and kills his whole family and maybe commits several other heinous crimes along the way before the SWAT team puts a single round through his head is still going to heaven because he was “chosen by God for salvation” and his deeds don’t matter? Or will he just get a much lesser reward in heaven because he got kinda messed up on the way? But he was “saved”… he had placed his faith in Christ for his salvation had he not? You just told us that one cannot lose one’s salvation didn’t you?
Sorry…that just doesn’t wash…at all, at all.
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Church_Militant
Guest
This much is clear. God hates sin and cannot be near it.
But this is unBiblical! as I showed you above.
Oh…then now you have begun to see the reason that the Bible implicitly speaks of a state of purification after death and before one can enter heaven…
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jimmy
Guest
God hates all sin, but there is a distinction based on our intentions and our knowledge and free will. Our heart tells whether we desire to know God.
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puzzleannie
Guest
by your reasoning Adam and Eve could not lose their salvation, the had every grace imaginable, full knowledge of God and so the possibility of full acceptance of his commands, in which we are limited by the effects of original sin. yet through free will they chose to reject God and so fell, condemning all mankind until Christ saved us from the just effects of their deadly sin.
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Mickey
Guest
…with fear and trembling work out your salvation. phil 2:12
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SPOKENWORD
Guest
Church Militant:
bjcros said:
Really? Then what does this mean? 1st John 5:16 He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death: for that I say not that any man ask. 17 All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death.========================================================================== To a believer the sin of death is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. All other sins that are confessed are forgiven and are not deadly.Life will be restored. In Gods eyes sin is sin.Penalties will very according to God wrath.
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mercygate
Guest
I Jn 5:16-17 (RSV):
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mercygate
Guest
Church Militant:
let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death: for that I say not that any man ask. 17 All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death.========================================================================== To a believer the sin of death is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. All other sins that are confessed are forgiven and are not deadly.Life will be restored. In Gods eyes sin is sin.Penalties will very according to God wrath.
Spokes, is a believer someone who is saved? Someone who has accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior, received the Holy Spirit, and therefore incapable of losing his salvation? Because if that is so (indeed, if this statement is not oversimplified), it would not be possible for a believer to commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit – would it? Or is the theology more nuanced than that?
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John_Henry
Guest
Spoken like a true Catholic.
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bjcros
Guest
jimmy said:
but he doesn’t say what those sins are, yet the church has ruled on that despite other evidence. That quote is misleading b/c in the following verse it says “All wrongdoing is sin”. Sin no matter how small or insifnificant we think it is will always seperate us from God. I’m not sure the exact place but The Bible says we are enslaved to sin, and are dead in it. However, with Christs blood we are made alive. Christ paid the price of sin for all those who the Lord calls. Of our free-will we can’t choose God. We are so evil and depraved of goodness that we can’t choose to do the right thing. If you want to be very legalistic. If you could live a perfect life without sin, which is impossible, but didn’t accept Jesus’s death for you, your still doomed to hell, because of original sin… and the original sin needs to be paid for, and that is what Christ did. Christ took all of the sins of those who accept him and paid the price on the cross. I can sin, I can be living in a state of sin when I die and be free of worry because I have already accepted Christ’s forgiveness. Do Catholics believe, If someone were ignorant of sin and didn’t believe in Christ, would they go to Heaven?
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bjcros
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Firstly, Adam and Eve didn’t need salvation in the garden. Merium-Webster defines Salvation as “deliverance from the power and effects of sin.” I don’t know where you get they had every grace imaginable. Adam and Eve were not in need of Salvation and didn’t have it when they were in the garden. They didn’t have full knowledge of God until they ate from the tree(which was the original sin). Yes, they did choose to reject God. I don’t really understand what you were trying to say but I hope this answers whatever, problem you had with my argument.
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Mickey
Guest
Sin and sin boldly! It doesn’t matter–once saved always saved!
:banghead:
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bjcros
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I don’t think that God makes a distinction, and I think it is a distinction that the church makes to make people feel better. God isn’t fair, we have sin and we are guilty of it. We will never choose not to sin on our own, without the Holy Spirit we would always sin. Free will is not a biblical idea. It is not mentioned once. It says that we have no choice actually. We play no part in our Salvation either.
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