Sin and Salvation

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bjcros:
It is true that man once was created good, but we haven’t been good in a very long time. I see where your coming from, but the verse you pointed was before the fall, and there was no evil, but now there is. Here is another one jealousy is a sin. A child is jealous of another child. The child is sinful. The Catholics would hold that the child is below the age of reason, and can’t choose. So if the child didn’t choose to be jealous then it is innate. Jealousy is not a good trait but rather bad. So we are not innately good but rather bad.
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The Bible does not indicate that with the Fall, Adam and Eve ceased to have characteristics of the image of God. What does it mean to be made in the image of God? What do we have that the animals, angels, plants, and rocks don’t have? It isn’t holiness–the angels have that. I think it pertains to our triune nature–of body, soul (emotions, intellect, and will), and spirit (the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit). The fall of man did not change this composition. Yes, our body, soul, and spirit were corrupted, but the body, soul, and spirit remain intact. That can be considered good.
 
snicker to the Armenian’s typo. Funny thing about those Armenians…they are pretty much Orthodox and believe a lot of the same things that the Catholic Church does (There’s even a church here named St. Anne & Joachim after Mary’s parents — THOUGH THEY ARE NOT IN THE BIBLE!!!:eek: ) I believe bj meant Arminians.

Second, Read Revelation 2 & 3. 2:5 especially. God has just commended that church for all it has done, but, it’s not doing those works no more. If it doesn’t repent and do what was told of them…they are going to be in a sad state after death. They were saved, now they are not (or at least in peril), and they can come back…seems like a pretty strong argument against OSAS.

Also, note Psalm 69:28 & Rev 3:5. Erase, struck, blotted out. MEANING, these names ARE/WERE written in the Book of Life, but, at a later date, that can be changed…if not careful.
 
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bjcros:
The Catholic Church teaches exactly what Armenians believe then. I used to think the same way. That I made the chose to choose God. It was God. It is only by his grace that I accepted him. How does society molest us when we can’t think.
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Nope. You must have missed post #40. Several points of Calvinism are not incompatible with Catholicism. Both St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas taught a concept of predestination that was not explained away by mere foreknowledge. Calvin got it wrong, though. He failed to see the paradox that there are individuals that were chosen AND that we have free will. It is a mystery. To exclude one or the other is errant. The Bible also clearly teaches that salvation can be lost, Therefore, a Catholic understanding of predestination is that the elect will persevere to the end and not die in a separated state.
 
BJ, please read John 15:1-17, and the entire book of 1 John. The word “abide” means “remain.” As you read these passages, use the word “remain” everytime it says “abide.” The New Testament is filled with scriptures that demonstrate that a Christian CAN lose salvation. The context is such that these are not warnings to non-Christians. These are Christians that are being warned.

I know this is a difficult pill to swallow. I was a Calvinist for over 20 years. After I started to read scripture without bias and take it at face value I was surprised that I had read what I wanted to hear for all those many years. The proof is right there in front of you.

You are correct that apart from Christ, even the smallest sin is enough to eternally separate us from God. So in that limited respect all sins are equal. But that is where the similarity ends. The temporal (earthly) consequences vary tremendously. I think you would agree with that. Additionally, and this is the crux of this conversation, is not all sin has the same effect upon one’s own spiritual health after one has been saved. There are sins that weaken our relationship with God, and there are sins that destroy it. It isn’t that Christ didn’t or can’t pay for those sins. He did and can. But if we severely insult the Spirit of Grace, we walk out on God. Hebrews 10:26-29 says,

"For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? "

This was written to Christians–not unbelievers. The author is saying if the consequences of setting aside the Law of Moses during Old Testament times were that severe, think how much more serious it is to trample the precious sacrifice of Christ and to insult the Holy Spirit! Later in verse 36, the author emphasizes the need for endurance, “For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.”

Others in this thread have quoted scriptures that also support the fact that there are sins that severe our relationship. We can always repent. God is faithful and ready to receive us back. But unrepented, such serious sins would render us eternally lost.
 
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bjcros:
Alright first of all I don’t see any difference in sin. Sin is sin. Every sin has the same penalty which is death.
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You are giving us your personal opinion, which is contradictory to Scripture.
Mt 12; 22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? 24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. 25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house. 30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. **31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. ** 33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. 34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. 38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. 42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here. 43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
Bold and italics are mine, first, there is sin which will not be forgiven, and there are sins which will be forgiven, how then can “Sin is sin. Every sin has the same penalty which is death”? second, if all sin is equal how can it be that these seven spirits are “more wicked”? if all sin is equal there can be no “more” or less wicked. And reasonably, please, having an evil thought, lust for example, you’re saying is equal to murder? Think about it.
 
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Tom:
You are giving us your personal opinion, which is contradictory to Scripture.
Mt 12; 22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? 24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. 25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house. 30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. 31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. 33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. 34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. 38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. 42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here. 43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
Bold and italics are mine, first, there is sin which will not be forgiven, and there are sins which will be forgiven, how then can “Sin is sin. Every sin has the same penalty which is death”? second, if all sin is equal how can it be that these seven spirits are “more wicked”? if all sin is equal there can be no “more” or less wicked. And reasonably, please, having an evil thought, lust for example, you’re saying is equal to murder? Think about it.
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The only distinction is if it can be forgiven or not. What is the biblical evidence to support mortal and venial sins? What is the different punishment that I am to receive for lust compared to murder then? Hell is Hell and it is the punishment for sin. The punishment for sin is seperation from God. Being without God is the same no matter what. I’m not going to say sin is good. because it isn’t. You will be punished for your sin. I am not saying whether they are equal, but rather the punishment is equal.
 
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