Sin and Salvation

[Church_Militant]

bjcros:

Ludicrous isn’t a valid a valid word when you haven’t proven that my position is “any position that defies good sense and logic…not to mention theology”. All you said is “Calvinism is ludicrous since it makes us a bunch of spiritual robots with no free will to truly love and serve God.” That doesn’t prove or disprove anything, except that you can use fancy words but can’t back them up. I was saying that putting all of my doctrinal issues with your position and my views on them and it really isn’t the right place to do that. When I said it was too much of a hassle. First of all I hold to what Calvin wrote on predestination. I haven’t read anything else. I don’t follow his logic that Mary was without sin and I don’t think that he is right that she didn’t have any other children. I hold that she was with sin, and that she could have had other children haven’t exactly thought out the implications of whether or not she had children. I don’t know what your referring to when you say “I fact all three “pillars of the reformation” shared the same views of the Blessed Virgin that we do”. If you mean that Lutheran and other reformers believed that. I don’t know. It doesn’t matter what they believe about this in my mind. If they hold the same beliefs as you then I hold that they were wrong in that aspect.

So then everything that you want us to believe is your personal interp of the Bible and you don’t even respect the men who brought out the doctrines upon which you base your salvation? Doesn’t this then tell us that you are asking us to buy into “doctrines of men” since these are interpretation of things that you have read from Calvin?

My statement stands since that is MY personal opinion of Calvinism after having read much about it from both side of the fence (so to speak). How can one truly love with all one’s heart, soul, mind, and body without the freedom not to love. If I have no freedom of will then I cannot really love.

Also if God looks on His creation and finds it “very good” then, how can one believe that man is inately totally depraved, since that would make man unable to respond to the Love of God and His grace.

BTW, all 3 of the pillars of the reformation did indeed share the Catholic beliefs about the Blessed Virgin and I submit that if you feel that they are wrong on that that you cannot accept anything else that they say since they are far too fallible.

 

[Mickey]

bjcros:

First of all I hold to what Calvin wrote on predestination. I haven’t read anything else. I don’t follow his logic that Mary was without sin and I don’t think that he is right that she didn’t have any other children. I hold that she was with sin, and that she could have had other children haven’t exactly thought out the implications of whether or not she had children. If you mean that Lutheran and other reformers believed that. I don’t know. It doesn’t matter what they believe about this in my mind. If they hold the same beliefs as you then I hold that they were wrong in that aspect.

Please don’t take this in a mean spirited way BJ,

You hold to what Calvin wrote on predestination, and other calvinistic revisions, but you reject other teachings by Calvin and the reformers because it does not fit comfortably with your personal interpretations. In other words if it is true to you–then it is truth. This is called relativism. It is a dangerous trap to fall into and leads people into error. Yes, Catholics are guilty of this too. If a Catholic decides for instance, that they hold to most doctrinal issues, but contraception and abortion is okay in their eyes, then this is relativism. They pick and choose what is comfortable for their conscience. This type of Catholicism is sometimes referred to as a cafeteria Catholic, and in reality, is not in full communion with the Catholic Church. As a faithful Catholic, we are called on to be obedient to Sacred Scripture and the 2000 year old Sacred Tradition which interprets those Scriptures. Obedience is not restraining. It is liberating–because obedience to the truth means that we must live that truth in the marketplace as a living witness to Christ. Obedience helps us to properly form our conscience as we proclaim our love for the Holy Trinity with all our heart, mind, and soul.

God Bless you

 

[Genesis315]

I once heard this analogy to describe the Catholic position on Salvation, mortal sin, etc.

With original sin, we are essentially put in a debtors prison with no way to pay our debt. When Jesus died he paid our debt and purchased our release. This just means the door to our cell is opened; it doesn’t mean we are beamed out of the prison. The only way we can leave the prison is by taking Jesus’ hand and walking out with Him. We can choose to not take His hand and remain in our prison cell. If we do take His hand, we will begin our walk towards the door. Everytime we sin mortally, it’s like we let go of Jesus’ hand and fall down. He reaches His hand out to us again and we can choose to take it again, get up, and continue walking with Him. Or we can choose not to. If we make it to the door (when we die) and we are still holding his hand, we have persevered and are saved. If we get to the door and are separated from Jesus, in essence we let Him walk out the door and we close it behind him, chooseing to remain alone in our prison forever.

I hope that helps.

 

[bjcros]

Mickey:

Please don’t take this in a mean spirited way BJ,

You hold to what Calvin wrote on predestination, and other calvinistic revisions, but you reject other teachings by Calvin and the reformers because it does not fit comfortably with your personal interpretations. In other words if it is true to you–then it is truth. This is called relativism. It is a dangerous trap to fall into and leads people into error. Yes, Catholics are guilty of this too. If a Catholic decides for instance, that they hold to most doctrinal issues, but contraception and abortion is okay in their eyes, then this is relativism. They pick and choose what is comfortable for their conscience. This type of Catholicism is sometimes referred to as a cafeteria Catholic, and in reality, is not in full communion with the Catholic Church. As a faithful Catholic, we are called on to be obedient to Sacred Scripture and the 2000 year old Sacred Tradition which interprets those Scriptures. Obedience is not restraining. It is liberating–because obedience to the truth means that we must live that truth in the marketplace as a living witness to Christ. Obedience helps us to properly form our conscience as we proclaim our love for the Holy Trinity with all our heart, mind, and soul.

God Bless you

I reject those because they are illogical. There is alot more biblical evidence to suggest that Mary was with sin rather than without. Yet you still hold to it. Just because that is what people have taught. Most of the non-Catholic Christians I know would hold that Mary was with sin.
A realitivist is someone who believes that there is no absolute truth and that all truths are equal. I don’t think that. I know there is an absolute truth and not all truths are equal.
Catholicism is legalistic, and thats what most people want. It seems like a nice checklist of things to do to gain salvation. Now that seems ludicrous to me. Because I see that man is inheritly bad. We can’t gain our salvation. No matter what we do or how hard we try our works won’t gain salvation.

 

[bjcros]

Genesis315:

I once heard this analogy to describe the Catholic position on Salvation, mortal sin, etc.

With original sin, we are essentially put in a debtors prison with no way to pay our debt. When Jesus died he paid our debt and purchased our release. This just means the door to our cell is opened; it doesn’t mean we are beamed out of the prison. The only way we can leave the prison is by taking Jesus’ hand and walking out with Him. We can choose to not take His hand and remain in our prison cell. If we do take His hand, we will begin our walk towards the door. Everytime we sin mortally, it’s like we let go of Jesus’ hand and fall down. He reaches His hand out to us again and we can choose to take it again, get up, and continue walking with Him. Or we can choose not to. If we make it to the door (when we die) and we are still holding his hand, we have persevered and are saved. If we get to the door and are separated from Jesus, in essence we let Him walk out the door and we close it behind him, chooseing to remain alone in our prison forever.

I hope that helps.

When someone bails someone out of prison they make sure they get out. They don’t let them out on there own and trust they can make it out. Would Christ not do the same.

 

[Mickey]

bjcros:

I reject those because they are illogical.

Of course you do.

bjcros:

There is alot more biblical evidence to suggest that Mary was with sin rather than without.

The Blessed Mother has been honored in the way that Catholics and Orthodox honor her today, since the days of the early Christians.

bjcros:

Yet you still hold to it. Just because that is what people have taught. Most of the non-Catholic Christians I know would hold that Mary was with sin.

That is because reformed revisionist theology tried to re-write history! It is what you have been taught that has fallen into error. Even Martin Luther held to the marian doctrines.

bjcros:

Catholicism is legalistic, and thats what most people want. It seems like a nice checklist of things to do to gain salvation. Now that seems ludicrous to me. Because I see that man is inheritly bad. We can’t gain our salvation. No matter what we do or how hard we try our works won’t gain salvation.

Now this last statement is ludicrous to me. Where did you gain your knowledge of Catholicism? The “works” accusation has been addressed so many times, it’s not even funny. Do you not read responses that are given to you on this forum, or do you just continue on to the next accusation?

ps–God created us.We are inherently good!

May God have mercy on you.

 

[BlackKnight]

Mickey:

Of course you do.

The Blessed Mother has been honored in the way that Catholics and Orthodox honor her today, since the days of the early Christians.

That is because reformed revisionist theology tried to re-write history! It is what you have been taught that has fallen into error. Even Martin Luther held to the marian doctrines.

Now this last statement is ludicrous to me. Where did you gain your knowledge of Catholicism? The “works” accusation has been addressed so many times, it’s not even funny. Do you not read responses that are given to you on this forum, or do you just continue on to the next accusation?

ps–God created us.We are inherently good!

May God have mercy on you.

Isn’t that what CM said up earlier?

Also if God looks on His creation and finds it “very good” then, how can one believe that man is inately totally depraved, since that would make man unable to respond to the Love of God and His grace.

 

[bjcros]

Mickey:

Of course you do.

The Blessed Mother has been honored in the way that Catholics and Orthodox honor her today, since the days of the early Christians.

That is because reformed revisionist theology tried to re-write history! It is what you have been taught that has fallen into error. Even Martin Luther held to the marian doctrines.

ps–God created us.We are inherently good!

May God have mercy on you.

I’m curious where you get the idea that early Christians honored Mary in the same way. I don’t know but I don’t think that they did. I don’t think the reformers tried to re-write history. but rather write the truth.

If we are inherently good, then where why is there evil in this world? Why is there jealousy between children? A child, despite being taught it was wrong will act out of jealousy naturally. I think your wrong, Humans are inherently evil beings. God didn’t create us this way. Ever since Adam and Eve we have had a fallen nature. Humans don’t need to be taught to do bad but rather taught to do good. Yet you say we are inherently good. I think you are blind to the evil in this world.

 

[bjcros]

Church Militant:

So then everything that you want us to believe is your personal interp of the Bible and you don’t even respect the men who brought out the doctrines upon which you base your salvation? Doesn’t this then tell us that you are asking us to buy into “doctrines of men” since these are interpretation of things that you have read from Calvin?

BTW, all 3 of the pillars of the reformation did indeed share the Catholic beliefs about the Blessed Virgin and I submit that if you feel that they are wrong on that that you cannot accept anything else that they say since they are far too fallible.

I respect the men. I just don’t hold the same views. BTW no matter what you believe in Christianity, it is always going to be a human interpretation. Whether it is by Pope or anyone else. They are all human interpretation. So if your reason for rejecting my arguments is because they are human interpretations then by your logic I should reject all Christian beliefs because they are all just human interpretations. So that is an invalid argument. I submit that if I am a born again believer with the Holy Spirit inside of me. The same Holy Spirit that you claim, the Pope draws his infallible teachings from. Then what gives the Pope more authoritative than me, other than the keys(because I don’t think he has them)?

 

[Mickey]

bjcros:

I’m curious where you get the idea that early Christians honored Mary in the same way. I don’t know but I don’t think that they did. I don’t think the reformers tried to re-write history. but rather write the truth.

Do your homework. Study your Church History. Then you can make educated comments instead of guesses and opinions. If you only care to go back as far as the reformation, then you will find that Luther and Calvin had strong devotions to Mary–similar to what Catholics hold today.

bjcros:

If we are inherently good, then where why is there evil in this world? Why is there jealousy between children? A child, despite being taught it was wrong will act out of jealousy naturally. I think your wrong, Humans are inherently evil beings. God didn’t create us this way. Ever since Adam and Eve we have had a fallen nature. Humans don’t need to be taught to do bad but rather taught to do good. Yet you say we are inherently good. I think you are blind to the evil in this world.

Genesis 1:27
God created man in His image, in the divine image He created him, male and female He created them.

Hey Bj, if you think that man is inherently evil then you must think that God is inherently evil because we were created in God’s image. Nothing that God created is evil. Do you understand this? Yes, we are tempted and we fall–but we are not inherently evil! Evil is a choice we make because of our disobedience to God. Yes we are fallen. But we are created in the image of God. We are created with a divine nature, and through Christ, we return to that nature. I think I understand what you are saying, but our fallen nature doesn’t transform us into evil beings–as much as satan would like it to be so.

 

[bjcros]

Mickey:

Do your homework. Study your Church History. Then you can make educated comments instead of guesses and opinions. If you only care to go back as far as the reformation, then you will find that Luther and Calvin had strong devotions to Mary–similar to what Catholics hold today.

Genesis 1:27
God created man in His image, in the divine image He created him, male and female He created them.

Hey Bj, if you think that man is inherently evil then you must think that God is inherently evil because we were created in God’s image. Nothing that God created is evil. Do you understand this? Yes, we are tempted and we fall–but we are not inherently evil! Evil is a choice we make because of our disobedience to God. Yes we are fallen. But we are created in the image of God. We are created with a divine nature, and through Christ, we return to that nature. I think I understand what you are saying, but our fallen nature doesn’t transform us into evil beings–as much as satan would like it to be so.

I get what you are saying. Give me some slack on this I’m gonna try to write a logical progression. We all agree that sin is evil. We are born with sin. Because these are true it follows that we are born evil. It is true that man once was created good, but we haven’t been good in a very long time. I see where your coming from, but the verse you pointed was before the fall, and there was no evil, but now there is. Here is another one jealousy is a sin. A child is jealous of another child. The child is sinful. The Catholics would hold that the child is below the age of reason, and can’t choose. So if the child didn’t choose to be jealous then it is innate. Jealousy is not a good trait but rather bad. So we are not innately good but rather bad.

 

[mercygate]

bjcros:

I get what you are saying. Give me some slack on this I’m gonna try to write a logical progression. We all agree that sin is evil. We are born with sin. Because these are true it follows that we are born evil. It is true that man once was created good, but we haven’t been good in a very long time. I see where your coming from, but the verse you pointed was before the fall, and there was no evil, but now there is. Here is another one jealousy is a sin. A child is jealous of another child. The child is sinful. The Catholics would hold that the child is below the age of reason, and can’t choose. So if the child didn’t choose to be jealous then it is innate. Jealousy is not a good trait but rather bad. So we are not innately good but rather bad.

The nuance between the Catholic and the Calvinist view is just that: a nuance. Catholic theology doesn’t even come close to the naive Romantic view that human nature, unmolested by “society” is unreservedly good. No. We agree that man is depraved. The nuance is that Calvin views human nature as “utterly depraved.” The Catholic view, acknowledging the basic goodness of creation, sees humanity as mortally wounded, depraved indeed, but yet, because of the goodness of the Creator, retaining a spark of his created nature which can respond to grace.

 

[dumspirospero]

Theology Rating: F-

bjcros:

Alright first of all I don’t see any difference in sin. Sin is sin. Every sin has the same penalty which is death. So your not saved by faith or works. but rather grace. without grace there wouldn’t be forgiveness. If my sin has been paid for by Christ then God wouldn’t punish the same sin twice. We play no part in our salvation. It isn’t by works. If God choose you then you will believe in him and accept his sons forgiveness. Even the proper Catholic belief is that you are saved by grace. rather than works.You should argue that if you really were a believer you wouldn’t lose your faith. So the answer is no you can’t lose your salvation.

 

[dumspirospero]

So I guess the kid who steals candy from the store is to be punished just the same as the man who rapes and murders a child???

bjcros:

I asked the question to get the Catholic response and to start a discussion, and I’m not exactly certain. I don’t think that we should make a distinction between sins, b/c God doesn’t make any of these distinctions. This much is clear. God hates sin and cannot be near it.

 

[Mickey]

mercygate:

The nuance between the Catholic and the Calvinist view is just that: a nuance. Catholic theology doesn’t even come close to the naive Romantic view that human nature, unmolested by “society” is unreservedly good. No. We agree that man is depraved. The nuance is that Calvin views human nature as “utterly depraved.” The Catholic view, acknowledging the basic goodness of creation, sees humanity as mortally wounded, depraved indeed, but yet, because of the goodness of the Creator, retaining a spark of his created nature which can respond to grace.

Thank you mercygate–much better explanation than mine!

 

[bjcros]

mercygate:

The nuance between the Catholic and the Calvinist view is just that: a nuance. Catholic theology doesn’t even come close to the naive Romantic view that human nature, unmolested by “society” is unreservedly good. No. We agree that man is depraved. The nuance is that Calvin views human nature as “utterly depraved.” The Catholic view, acknowledging the basic goodness of creation, sees humanity as mortally wounded, depraved indeed, but yet, because of the goodness of the Creator, retaining a spark of his created nature which can respond to grace.

The Catholic Church teaches exactly what Armenians believe then. I used to think the same way. That I made the chose to choose God. It was God. It is only by his grace that I accepted him. How does society molest us when we can’t think.

 

[bjcros]

dumspirospero:

Theology Rating: F-

That’s pathetic. Just making one statement like that. You don’t even support your position biblically. Just dismissing my view as wrong without providing any evidence is illogical. So to you I give you a F- on your theology for just believing whatever you were told.

 

[bjcros]

dumspirospero:

So I guess the kid who steals candy from the store is to be punished just the same as the man who rapes and murders a child???

First of all I don’t decide the punishment. It is God. There isn’t evidence for seperate punishments for different sins that I know of. If there is please give the verses. There is a punishment for sin. And that is hell.

 

[mercygate]

bjcros:

The Catholic Church teaches exactly what Armenians believe then. I used to think the same way. That I made the chose to choose God. It was God. It is only by his grace that I accepted him. How does society molest us when we can’t think.

Yeah, I know what you mean about not being able to think, especially those poor Armenians.

 

[petra]

bjcros:

I’m curious where you get the idea that early Christians honored Mary in the same way. I don’t know but I don’t think that they did. I don’t think the reformers tried to re-write history. but rather write the truth.

If we are inherently good, then where why is there evil in this world? Why is there jealousy between children? A child, despite being taught it was wrong will act out of jealousy naturally. I think your wrong, Humans are inherently evil beings. God didn’t create us this way. Ever since Adam and Eve we have had a fallen nature. Humans don’t need to be taught to do bad but rather taught to do good. Yet you say we are inherently good. I think you are blind to the evil in this world.

Martin Luther maintained a devotion to Mary. And like the Catholic Church today, it was not worship, but rather honoring a remarkable mother. Among the ten commandments we are called to honor our earthly parents. Mary was the most blessed of mothers. She was also most devoted to Christ and we can learn from her devotion. It is completely Biblical to honor her. Martin Luther also believed in the Real Presence in the Eucharist, which modern Protestants have rejected. If you learn a little history, you’ll see that modern Protestantism bears little resemblance to the early church.

There is evil in the world because people are sinners. Apart from faith we cannot please God. But we are also made in the image of God. Depending upon one’s actions, that image is more distorted in some than in others. But it is not a contradiction to acknowledge our sin nature and also to acknowlege that there is at least some good in people.