Sin and why Jesus had to die on the cross?!

[Future_Prodigy]

yes to her, because the offence is directed towards her… i still don’t see how it offends God. i guess thats where i am at

 

[NotWorthy]

People may have different degrees in which they see sin, but all in all, sin, especially grave sin, does only one thing - it keeps us away from being with God.

Exactly!

And remember, it’s not God turning away from us. It’s us turning away from God.

Look at the Prodigal Son. Wonderful story of forgiveness and whatnot. But notice that the son had to repent and return to the Father before he was restored into the family. He didn’t just have to say “My Bad” and keep on feeding the pigs!

 

[NotWorthy]

yes to her, because the offence is directed towards her… i still don’t see how it offends God. i guess thats where i am at

But what if she catches you stealing something that is someone else’s? It may have nothing to do with her.

If she’s offended by your actions, is she wrong in her reaction?

 

[Future_Prodigy]

Heres how i used to think of the resurrection. I used to think Jesus came down to show us a way, a way of love, a way to Him (God) that was acceptable and if we only followd His perfect example then we would spend eternity away with Him. None of this legalistic, you offended by your sin so now you go to Hell kind of theology. More like a Divine Role Model who came out of Love nothing to do with coverign sins.

This whole notion of sin i just cant get around. It’s not hard to see we sin, we put our own willovr and above His all the time. This is like not chosing Him, but not directly offending Him. Like me choosing to ignore my mothers wishes which are for my best interest, which inevitablly hurts her, but she does not hold it against me forever. She is disappointed but not eternally hurt therefor Jesus has to come to make retribution for that sin.

 

[NotWorthy]

Heres how i used to think of the resurrection. I used to think Jesus came down to show us a way, a way of love, a way to Him (God) that was acceptable and if we only followd His perfect example then we would spend eternity away with Him. None of this legalistic, you offended by your sin so now you go to Hell kind of theology. More like a Divine Role Model who came out of Love nothing to do with coverign sins.

But Jesus said it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle…

Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, the light. NO ONE can come to the father except through me”.

Jesus said that “but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.”

This doesn’t sould like someone who just wanted to show us a way to love, now does it?

This whole notion of sin i just cant get around. It’s not hard to see we sin, we put our own willovr and above His all the time. This is like not chosing Him, but not directly offending Him. Like me choosing to ignore my mothers wishes which are for my best interest, which inevitablly hurts her, but she does not hold it against me forever. She is disappointed but not eternally hurt therefor Jesus has to come to make retribution for that sin.

See this is where I’m not explaining myself, I guess.

If we choose a life of sin over a life with God, then He gives it to us. (That’s Justice).

If we stumble and fall, He offers us a way to return to Him. (That’s Mercy)

If we live in His light and follow His ways, then we get to go to heaven. (That’s Love).

 

[Future_Prodigy]

When i read your messages I dont get the normal sense of western sinfulness attached to it. Do you hold to the belief that Jesus sacrifice was the perfect sacrifice, the OT ones were only incomplete and covered our sins. Jesus’ sacrifice was the perfect one and covered all our sins?

Aww i dont even know what I’m talkin about anymore. I can see what you mean, sining as turning away from God. Such sins as atheism, murder, etc. But swearing, drinking to much, etc? How is this turning away from God, aside from the obvious it is not following what he wants us to do? I can understand it is in our better interest to follow His Rule as it is what makes us fully human but the fact that in not following it puts up a wall btw Him and Us, that sort of theology doesn’t make sense

 

[NotWorthy]

When i read your messages I dont get the normal sense of western sinfulness attached to it. Do you hold to the belief that Jesus sacrifice was the perfect sacrifice, the OT ones were only incomplete and covered our sins. Jesus’ sacrifice was the perfect one and covered all our sins?

Jesus’ sacrfice redeemed my sins. They don’t cover them up, though (I am NOT a snow covered dung heap). They wash them away. But only the sins that I repent and ask for forgiveness from. I am not free to sin simply because Jesus gave Himself as the perfect sacrifice.

I’m not sure what sense I come from. I am a sinful man, but I don’t absorb myself in guilt when I sin. I simply wish to better myself so that I can love God more perfectly.

Aww i dont even know what I’m talkin about anymore. I can see what you mean, sining as turning away from God. Such sins as atheism, murder, etc. But swearing, drinking to much, etc? How is this turning away from God, aside from the obvious it is not following what he wants us to do? I can understand it is in our better interest to follow His Rule as it is what makes us fully human but the fact that in not following it puts up a wall btw Him and Us, that sort of theology doesn’t make sense

When I drink, who am I hurting. Well, the time I started drinking and enjoyed a few drinks, probably nobody.

The time my drinking developed to where I was having 10-15 drinks in one night, I may not have hurt anyone, but I was rolling the dice. And some day those dice would come up “snake eyes” if I’d continued.

The time in New Orleans when I had 36 drinks? I think I did some serious risk to my body, and could easily have hurt many people, including the ones that I love if they had found my dead in my own pool of vomit.

The next time I had a chance to drink… and I didn’t? I was able to travel home to my wife from a business trip that night so that she could go to the hospital and tell her mother (who had been dying in a coma for a few months) good-bye. I normally would have been so drunk, that I would have had to tell my wife I’m in no condition to drive, and that she would have to miss her mother’s pending death.

 

[Future_Prodigy]

I understand 100% what you’re saying and that would be an attrocity commited to your wife and her mother but not to God. Maybe I am seeing sin as a insult. I just can’t see that being a insult to God because we won’t follow his way. It almost seems tyranical no matter how much of a love spin you put on it.

He came to redemn your sins, yes, but why? If we just follow his path of Love, we wouldnt sin and if we did we would be hurting ourselevs not God, therefore we could correct oursleves back on the path to Loving God and our Neighbour.

 

[NotWorthy]

I understand 100% what you’re saying and that would be an attrocity commited to your wife and her mother but not to God. Maybe I am seeing sin as a insult. I just can’t see that being a insult to God because we won’t follow his way. It almost seems tyranical no matter how much of a love spin you put on it.

He came to redemn your sins, yes, but why? If we just follow his path of Love, we wouldnt sin and if we did we would be hurting ourselevs not God, therefore we could correct oursleves back on the path to Loving God and our Neighbour.

Then why does Jesus say dis-obedience would incure God’s wrath? (John 3:36)

 

[SOUNDTRUTH]

I think that there is much more to it than just dieing on a cross.

A complete universe is composed of an equal balance of positives and negatives. However, you can see that we do not have a world that is covered with people in which half are good people and the other half are evil.

Therefore, someone had to pay the price to change that balance.

This fellow at this web site outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2.htm will probably answer some questions some day, but at the moment he is in a bad bad mood due to having withstood indescribable agony to save as many people as possible, yet people laugh at him and call him crazy.

Maybe a few decades down the road, he’ll cool down and not punish his accusers. Maybe ?

 

[jpjd]

I understand 100% what you’re saying and that would be an attrocity commited to your wife and her mother but not to God. Maybe I am seeing sin as a insult. I just can’t see that being a insult to God because we won’t follow his way. It almost seems tyranical no matter how much of a love spin you put on it.

Why would the atrocity hurt the wife but not hurt God? I think the problem is that you see God as your Creator but not as your Father. God is more than just some Diety who is overlooking all His works. He is your Father who you have a relationship with, just as you have a relationship with your wife and your son.

Just as your actions hurt your wife, they also hurt your Father. He created you out of goodness and love, and your hurts toward your fellow humans, who are also His children, is a hurt against Him.

He created us with goodness, but what do we do, we pervert it. Love becomes lust. Virtue becomes vice. The sinful action may be perpetrated on another human, but it’s effect is not only on that person, it’s also on God. And God and sin can not exist together because God is only Love. That is why a mortal sin keeps you from heaven.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Why would the atrocity hurt the wife but not hurt God? I think the problem is that you see God as your Creator but not as your Father. God is more than just some Diety who is overlooking all His works. He is your Father who you have a relationship with, just as you have a relationship with your wife and your son.

Just as your actions hurt your wife, they also hurt your Father. He created you out of goodness and love, and your hurts toward your fellow humans, who are also His children, is a hurt against Him.

He created us with goodness, but what do we do, we pervert it. Love becomes lust. Virtue becomes vice. The sinful action may be perpetrated on another human, but it’s effect is not only on that person, it’s also on God. And God and sin can not exist together because God is only Love. That is why a mortal sin keeps you from heaven.

If you had two children, and one did something terrible to another, wouldn’t it hurt you to see that?

 

[jpjd]

I’m asking the question to Future Prodigy: Why would the sin hurt the wife and not God? for him to answer because he doesn’t seem to understand that the sin would hurt both of them, not just the wife. I know that it would hurt both. I’m trying to get him to see that.

 

[Future_Prodigy]

jpjd - i totally forgot about the whole divine family thing. you are right. If i had 2 sons and my one son did something to another it would hurt me. I can see that now. I totally forgot about somethign as basic as that.

Yet, how do we relate that to the need for the cross, in the sense that without it we would ahve been bansihed forever from god? I can see now if i stole from you, my brother in God, then yes it would hurt you and God… but would that warrant my eternal damnation in Hell because of it? I know no loving parent that would do that especially if i turned from my ways and asked pardon for the action.

 

[jpjd]

I can see now if i stole from you, my brother in God, then yes it would hurt you and God… but would that warrant my eternal damnation in Hell because of it? I know no loving parent that would do that especially if i turned from my ways and asked pardon for the action.

Yes!!! And so does God!!! God is *very *merciful. God will always forgive you if you are sorry. As a loving Father, He also pardons you if you turn from your ways.

To answer your question, yes it would warrant your eternal damnation in Hell if it’s a mortal sin. To be a mortal sin, the sin committed must be a serious matter, done with full knowledge, and with deliberate consent. If that doesn’t deserve Hell, what does? And a just God demands justice.

And as I said, He is also a merciful God. Repentence always leads to forgiveness of sins. Go to confession.

 

[Future_Prodigy]

That answer didn’t help. Can you try rephrasing it a bit.

I can see now how our actions would hurt God, in the sense of His Fathering of a divine family. How this relates to the need for the cross or his death I have not figured out yet.

Let me look at this. If i steal a tv from you, this is a mortal sin. Under the Old Law how could i have obtained forgiveness? I could have somehow right? So why would God need to come to earth to die for our sins.

Forget that above quesiton thats gettin off topic with my line of thought. I can see now how certain actions offend God, but how they warrant a lifetime in Hell i do not. If they dont repent then thats one thing, they go to hell where there is no need for God and where you will get what you wanted. But if you repent God forgives you and you can live eternally with him. This is all OT stuff, so why did He come ?

 

[jpjd]

My understanding is that the Catholic Church teaches that the *righteous *folks before Jesus’ death and resurrection (i.e. the righteous OT people) did not go to heaven, but went to"the limbo of the fathers." How could they go to heaven when they had no grace in their souls? Remember, grace was lost due to the sin of Adam, and all humans inherit that loss of grace, called original sin.

When Jesus was resurrected, He opened the gates of heaven and those righteous souls went in at that time.

The folks of the OT followed the law and offered their animal sacrifices, and it showed their righteousness, but none was sufficient to atone for their sins. It was only the blood of Jesus, the Perfect Sacrifice due to His sinlessness, that was acceptable to God and able to atone for our sins. The grace that resulted from His resurrection is what we receive in the sacraments of baptism and confession, and that is what allows us to go to heaven…that grace in our souls.

Now, in “post-resurrection” era, we receive that grace in confession when we repent, when we are truly sorry for our sins.

(BTW, the reason the OT people could benefit from Jesus’ resurrection even though it happened after their lifetime is because Jesus’ resurrection and the grace it merited, transcends time. It flows forward and backward.)

So, to summarize, the reason Jesus had to die on the cross is grace. It’s all about grace.

I hope this is helping more.

 

[NotWorthy]

That answer didn’t help. Can you try rephrasing it a bit.

I can see now how our actions would hurt God, in the sense of His Fathering of a divine family. How this relates to the need for the cross or his death I have not figured out yet.

Let me look at this. If i steal a tv from you, this is a mortal sin. Under the Old Law how could i have obtained forgiveness? I could have somehow right? So why would God need to come to earth to die for our sins.

Forget that above quesiton thats gettin off topic with my line of thought. I can see now how certain actions offend God, but how they warrant a lifetime in Hell i do not. If they dont repent then thats one thing, they go to hell where there is no need for God and where you will get what you wanted. But if you repent God forgives you and you can live eternally with him. This is all OT stuff, so why did He come ?

In the OT, if a person violted the commandments knowingly, they could not be forgiven. Only if they didn’t know they were sinning, could they be forgiven.

 

[Future_Prodigy]

In the OT, if a person violted the commandments knowingly, they could not be forgiven. Only if they didn’t know they were sinning, could they be forgiven.

EVER? Wow that throws more scredrivers into the machine, thats not very loving lol. I hope God speaks to me about this issue somehow becaus ei definately feel lost.

 

[jpjd]

Future Prodigy,

I’m not sure Not Worthy’s comment is correct.

Are you Catholic? Or even if you’re not…why don’t you speak to a priest about your questions?

They are very good questions, but it’s hard to address them adequately in a forum. You really need to talk to a knowledgable person one-on-one, in person. Call your parish and make an appt with a priest.