Sin boldly?

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‘Scandal and disquiet’ were certainly not wanting when Luther and Melanchthon granted, in December 1539,a dispensation to Philip of Hesse to contract a second marriage. Here, as in the matrimonial cause of Henry VIII, was a case of a ‘disturbed conscience’. The prince had led to excess the kind of dissolute life which was practically the normal thing among princes (Charles V by no means excepted), was badly afflicted with syphilis and, somehow or other, full of certainty that a second marriage would bring peace to his life; quite possibly, he also hoped superstitiously for a miraculous cure of the disease through a lawful union with a pure virgin. Martin Bucer was sent to Wittenberg and Luther became convinced that Philip’s cause was a genuine conscientious problem. The dispensation was granted. Long preambles stated that monogamy was the normal divine institution; thus it had been at the time of the creation and later became the laudable law in the Church despite the fact that in some eras concessions had become customary. This said, they proceeded to explain the possibility of an exception provided it was understood that there was a fundamental difference between the introduction of a new law or custom and the granting of a special dispensation. They implored the prince to keep the dispensation a close secret, for two reasons: firstly, it must not be presumed by anybody that a new custom had been sanctioned and, secondly, the opponents of the Lutherans should be prevented from hearing of it as they would, no doubt, broadcast the news that the Lutherans had become like the Anabaptists, or even like the Turks.

There follows a strong admonition that henceforth the prince must give up his adulteries, and a reminder (I Cor. vi,i 9,10) that according to St. Paul adulterers shall not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. The letter further stresses that one of the chief duties of pastors is to guard the sanctity of matrimony and to keep a watch on all human institutions lest they become severed from their original and divinely ordained meaning. ‘However, since your Grace finds it impossible to abstain from an unchaste life— you say that to do so is not possible to you— we should wish to see you in a better estate before God, enabling you to live henceforth with a quiet conscience for your Grace’s own salvation and for the good of your land and people.’

Only a few months later the secret began, of course, to leak out. Luther at first thought it could be met by a denial,but this was no way out: the affair became common knowledge. Luther, not normally easily distressed about a wrong move if it was open to rectification, was full of regret and made no secret of this when writing to the quite despairing Melanchthon. ‘The serpent and the serpent’s brood of wisdom after the event will plague us more than all enemies and opponents have ever done.’ He maintained that the devil’s own wisdom had guided them when they granted the dispensation.

It was probably the scandal made of the case of Philip of Hesse which brought to an end the possibility of considering bigamy the lesser evil in comparison with the break-up of a matrimonial bond. Bigamy became as impossible as ‘divorce’ and the case of Philip, no doubt, strengthened the effect of Charles V’s recent legislation against bigamy.

We have mentioned cases of dispensations for bigamy which caused no great scandal; they had been granted under the old religion. Here, however, was a case which called forth an ostentatious outcry against the rotten morals of the reformers. Quod licet Jovi non licet bovi. As a pastoral, individual dispensation, Luther’s consent had been quite legitimate; diplomatically speaking—Luther had never pretended to be a diplomat, or to be guided by the morals of diplomats— the granting of the dispensation had been a gigantic blunder. The case of Philip of Hesse became—and has remained, when suitably told—the favourite subject for the portrayal of Luther the Knave.
 
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raumzeitmc2:
Why you don’t seem to understand that such an action was reprehensible, and ought to be exposed, is beyond me.
You present a picture of Luther as one who frequently and without restraint taught bigamy like an early Mormon. This is simply a gross caricature, and such an image should be repulsive to any person who loves truth.

Luther scholar Heinrich Boehmer points out that for Luther, bigamy was only to be in cases of “severe necessity, for instance, if the wife develops leprosy or becomes otherwise unfit to live with her husband… But this permission is always to be restricted to such cases as severe necessity. The idea of legalizing general polygamy was far from the reformers mind. Monogamy was always to him the regular form of matrimony…” (Luther And The Reformation in Light of Modern Research, 213-214). Other than the Phillip of Hesse scandal and Henry VIII, I know of no other instances in which Luther agreed to it.

W.H.T Dau notes,

Catholics fail to mention that Luther repelled bigamous thoughts in Philip of Hesse fourteen years before the Landgrave took Margaret von der Saal. The evidence was found in the state archives at Kassel, now at Marburg, in a fragment of a letter which Niedner published in the Zeitschrift fuer historische Theologie, 1852, No. 2, p. 265. The letter is dated November 28, 1526; Philip’s bigamous marriage took place March 9, 1540. In this letter Luther says to Philip: “As regards the other matter, my faithful warning and advice is that no man, Christians in particular, should have more than one wife, not only for the reason that offense would be given, and Christians must not needlessly give, but most diligently avoid giving, offense, but also for the reason that we have no word of God regarding this matter on which we might base a belief that such action would be well-pleasing to God and to Christians. Let heathen and Turks do what they please. Some of the ancient fathers had many wives, but they were urged to this by necessity, as Abraham and Jacob, and later many kings, who according to the law of Moses obtained the wives of their friends, on the death of the latter, as an inheritance. The example of the fathers is not a sufficient argument to convince a Christian: he must have, in addition, a divine word that makes him sure, just as they had a word of that kind from God. For where there was no need or cause, the ancient fathers did not have more than one wife, as Isaac, Joseph, Moses, and many others. For this reason I cannot advise for, but must advise against, your intention, particularly since you are a Christian, unless there were an extreme necessity, as, for instance, if the wife were leprous or the husband were deprived of her for some other reason. On what grounds to forbid other people such marriages I know not” (21a, 900 f.) This letter effected that the Landgrave did not carry out his intention, but failing, nevertheless, to lead a chaste life, he did not commune, except once in extreme illness, because of his accusing conscience." ( Luther Examined and Reexamined: A Review of Catholic Criticism and a Plea for Reevaluation (St Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1917, 103-104)

Dau also points out that Catholics should use caution in this charge against Luther:

"Ought not this remark of the Landgrave caution Luther’s Catholic critics to be very careful in what they say about the heinousness of Luther’s offense in granting a dispensation from a moral precept? Have they really no such thing as a “dispensation” at Rome? Has not the married relationship come up for “dispensation” in the chancelleries of the Vatican innumerable times? Has not one of the canonized saints of Rome, St. Augustine, declared that bigamy might be permitted if a wife was sterile? Was not concubinage still recognized by law in the sixteenth century in Ireland? Did not King Diarmid have two legitimate wives and two concubines? And he was a Catholic. What have Catholics to say in rejoinder to Sir Henry Maine’s assertion that the Canon Law of their Church brought about numerous sexual inequalities? Or to Joseph MacCabe’s statement that not until 1060 was there any authoritative mandate of the Church against polygamy, and that even after this prohibition there were numerous instances of concubinage and polygamic marriages in Christian communities? Or to Hallam in his Middle Ages, where he reports concubinage in Europe? Or to Lea, who proves that this evil wasnot confined to the laity? (See Gallighan, Women under Polygamy, pp. 43. 292. 295. 303. 330. 339.) ( Luther Examined and Reexamined: A Review of Catholic Criticism and a Plea for Reevaluation (St Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1917, 106)

Luther got himself into a mess with his involvement with Phillip. One of Luther’s final comments on this was that if anyone thereafter should practice bigamy, let the Devil give him a bath in the abyss of hell . A profound aspect of the Bible is its commitment to telling us about the sins of the human condition; even in those characters considered the greatest of God’s people. David was described as “a man after God’s own heart,” yet within his life one finds adultery and murder. Jesus called Peter “blessed,” yet not long after, Peter denied that he even knew him. Examples could be multiplied, and could go beyond the pages of Scripture into the halls of church history. God’s people struggle with sin, and sometimes take great falls. Such is the case of Martin Luther and his involvement with Hesses’ bigamy. Luther’s life shows many high peaks and some deep valleys: profound success for God’s kingdom, along with human failure. With Luther’s attitude on Bigamy, and his involvement with Phillip of Hesse, we see one of the warts of Luther. Luther had to learn the hard way with his attitude on Bigamy.

Regards,
James Swan
 
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raumzeitmc2:
Luther himself was merciless in his criticisms of others.
This is anachronism. The entire period is replete with literature from people attacking and criticizing each other. It was quite common.
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raumzeitmc2:
As for those who sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear
The horse has been dead for quite a long, so beating it will do nothing. Isn’t 500 years of pointing out one of Luther’s failures while ignoring his subsequent repentance over it enough? Or is this a standard with Roman Catholicism I’m not aware of? Keep beating the same drum over and over and over…
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raumzeitmc2:
For the zillionth time; those are only two of many sources.
And, two sources you need to be very careful with. I suggest reading critiques of both men’s work by later Catholic scholars.

Regards,
James Swan
 
You present a picture of Luther as one who frequently and without restraint taught bigamy like an early Mormon. This is simply a gross caricature, and such an image should be repulsive to any person who loves truth.
That’s simply not true! It is a gross misrepresentation of what I’ve been saying.

But just as a hypothetical, let me ask you this:

Suppose it were the case that Luther had in fact “frequently and without restraint taught bigamy like an early Mormon.” Would his reformation credentials be thereby affected?
 
[Originally Posted by raumzeitmc2
Now you speak of the “proclamation of the gospel, and dedication to the authority of the Scriptures.” Well, just what is the “gospel” in your opinion?
**Raumzeitmc2, now that TertiumQuid has presented the Gospel.

What is the Gospel according to the RCC, in your opinion?**

:hmmm:
[/quote]
 
**Raumzeitmc2, now that TertiumQuid has presented the Gospel.

What is the Gospel according to the RCC, in your opinion?**

:hmmm:
He hasn’t presented the gospel. Rather he has presented a silly defense of Luther.

Regards
Jimmy
 
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raumzeitmc2:
LOL!!! But I know that Luther had good qualities; who ever said otherwise (oops! Here comes another lecture on Denifle!
Catholic writings against Luther began highly polemic, with a concentration on pointing out how immoral he was to prove that Luther wasn’t any sort of “reformer”. Your posts have been similar.
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raumzeitmc2:
O K, seriously. Luther really did have a number of good qualities, and I actually do agree with you that they ought to be better known.
Like what?
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raumzeitmc2:
Here’s where Lutherans and the Lutheran church could do much to put away misunderstanding, if only they weren’t so afraid of going public domain with Luther’s works. And why are they afraid? A number of reasons.
As to “public domain” I responded to this already. If you think though that the current set of Luther’s Works attempts to hide the eight things you mention, it’s simply ridiculous, and demonstrates how little of Luther’s current published writings you’ve read. There isn’t any conspiracy to keep negative facts about Luther hidden. I could list quite a number of writings contained in the LW set that present Luther in a negative light. You’ll notice the set includes Luther’s “On The Jews and Their Lies.” In the tabletalk LW volume, they purposely included those sayings that have caused polemics. The set includes Luther’s scatological language, scandals, complaints about the people, attacks against Zwingli, etc,
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raumzeitmc2:
Now these and many other such things the Lutherans are afraid will do irreparable damage to the cause of the reformation were they to become widely known.
I live near a number of libraries, and many of them carry the 55 volume current LW set. To my knowledge, there aren’t any Lutheran illuminati guarding the set so people don’t learn “the truth about Luther.”

Regards,
James Swan
 
He hasn’t presented the gospel. Rather he has presented a silly defense of Luther.

Regards
Jimmy
Hey, my own personal Internet stalker is here- how nice. This guy follows me around cyber space and stalks me- I think he’s Roman Catholic, so perhaps any of you with access to a moderator can ask them to ban him.

Thanks,
James Swan
 
He hasn’t presented the gospel. Rather he has presented a silly defense of Luther.

Regards
Jimmy
Actually kid, you apparently missed TertiumQuid’s brief biblical Gospel presentation in post 146.

Raumzeitmc2, read it, for he mocks the Gospel of grace in his rebuttal. See post 158.

:rolleyes:
 
Hey, my own personal Internet stalker is here- how nice. This guy follows me around cyber space and stalks me- I think he’s Roman Catholic, so perhaps any of you with access to a moderator can ask them to ban him.

Thanks,
James Swan
Not sure what you mean by personal internet stalker. You must have issues if you think i’m stalking you. Or perhaps you can elaborate on this “stalker.”

~Jimmy
 
Actually kid, you apparently missed TertiumQuid’s brief biblical Gospel presentation in post 146.

Raumzeitmc2, read it, for he mocks the Gospel of grace in his rebuttal. See post 158.

:rolleyes:
Kaycee, apparently you missed the thrust of post 14, which is just another defence of Luther, and a silly attack of Indulgences with typical “reformed” substitution atonement meme. That not the gospel. For more on PSA, go to catholicnick.blogspot.com
 
Kaycee, apparently you missed the thrust of post 14, which is just another defence of Luther, and a silly attack of Indulgences with typical “reformed” substitution atonement meme. That not the gospel. For more on PSA, go to catholicnick.blogspot.com
Since Raumzeitmc2 is slow to respond to my request for the Gospel according to Rome, maybe you could tell me what the Roman Catholic Gospel is?
 
That whole “sin boldly” and “OSAS” attitude on the part of so many Christians just screams presumption to me.

Oh yeah, I’m saved because I made an act of faith once… as though Christ were in a game of spiritual tag with the believer, and all you have to do is tag him, and once He’s “it”, He’s under eternal obligation to save your soul, no matter how flagrantly you sin afterwards?

Nonsense. Not only nonsense, it’s insulting to everyone involved. Sin boldly: add to Christ’s sufferings on Calvary instead of working to reform your sinful ways. Unreal.

They say that Luther used to read the Bible while moving his bowels. I’m not surprised at the results.
 
Thanks, Gottle. I hope I explained what I think Luther was saying well.
Of course, I would also say for a church group to simply put “Sin boldly” on a t-shirt with no explanation will, of course, lead to misunderstanding.

Jon
We can hope that the intention was to invite inquiry, and that all wearing the shirts would have been able to provide a good explanation of the quote!
At Open House at Cornell this past summer, I saw people with T-shirts listing reasons to belong to their denomination, and one was : “All of the ritual, none of the guilt.” This, I thought, had to be a swipe at Catholicism, and was probably intended to lure Catholics away from the Church. And I thought: Well, that about sums it up. Lots of window-dressing, no substance. And they are bragging about this.
 
Since Raumzeitmc2 is slow to respond to my request for the Gospel according to Rome, maybe you could tell me what the Roman Catholic Gospel is?
You’ve been on this forum, Four years and you don’t know what the Catholic Gospel is?
 
You’ve been on this forum, Four years and you don’t know what the Catholic Gospel is?
Offcourse I know, just want to see if you or raumzeitmc2 know.

Most evangelicals would die to be served up that softball, but when i ask RC’s what the Gospel is, most answer with a non answer, like you.

🤷
 
Offcourse I know, just want to see if you or raumzeitmc2 know.

Most evangelicals would die to be served up that softball, but when i ask RC’s what the Gospel is, most answer with a non answer, like you.

🤷
llol, Ok, let me give a quick cliff notes version of what the Catholic gospel is.

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020:%202-17;&version=31;

"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. You shall have no other gods before [a] me. "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments. "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you. "You shall not murder. "You shall not commit adultery. "You shall not steal. "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

Recapitualed by Christ in

Matt 5
Matt 6
Matt 7

Oh snap! another non answer
 
Catholic writings against Luther began highly polemic, with a concentration on pointing out how immoral he was to prove that Luther wasn’t any sort of “reformer”. Your posts have been similar.
All I’m saying is that, to the extent that Luther, Melanchthon, Bucer (or anyone else for that matter) sanction such things as polygamy, they are indeed “immoral.” You may think it defensible, but the Fathers would have been appalled. St. Basil, for example, wrote,

“On polygamy the Fathers are silent, as being brutish and altogether inhuman. The sin seems to me worse than fornication.”

Letter 217.
newadvent.org/fathers/3202217.htm

Also, I would ask you again, what is one to make of a person who would say such a thing as this?

“The word of God is quite clear,i.e., that women were made to be either wives or prostitutes.”

Or do you just doubt Luther actually said it?

Regarding Luther’s good qualities (and I’m more than happy to point a few of them out :)):

First and foremost, I believe that he was genuinely a man of intense faith. Also I think beyond question, is the fact that he was a good, loving and devoted husband and father.

In his Table Talks, we find him to be a rather varied and complex man, and one generally possessed of a good sense of humor.

As to so many of his writings, they leave not the slightest doubt, even among his severest critics, that he was indeed a man high intelligence, wit, and passion.

Also, as I said earlier, in speaking of the saints, and especially of the Blessed Virgin, he often says things so beautifully and so eloquently, that one comes away feeling, not just edified, but even amazed.🙂

And just between you, me and the lamppost, 😉 in reading his works, I’ve often found myself cheering him on when, for example, he is taking to task someone who was truly abusing his office or otherwise behaving dishonorably. Who wouldn’t?

So, yes, Luther had many good qualities. And I would defend him against any who would say otherwise. The sad thing though is that, for all his good and all his talents, the vehement side of his nature - and his pride - too often overshadowed the wonderful qualities. But none of dare judge the deep intentions of a man’s heart – for only God may do that. All we are permitted to judge are the outward actions against the unchanging standard of God’s laws and truth.
As to “public domain” I responded to this already. If you think though that the current set of Luther’s Works attempts to hide the eight things you mention, it’s simply ridiculous, and demonstrates how little of Luther’s current published writings you’ve read. There isn’t any conspiracy to keep negative facts about Luther hidden. I could list quite a number of writings contained in the LW set that present Luther in a negative light. You’ll notice the set includes Luther’s “On The Jews and Their Lies.” In the tabletalk LW volume, they purposely included those sayings that have caused polemics. The set includes Luther’s scatological language, scandals, complaints about the people, attacks against Zwingli, etc,
I’m well aware of the contents of the American Edition of Luther’s Works. I just wonder why these works are not online?
I live near a number of libraries, and many of them carry the 55 volume current LW set. To my knowledge, there aren’t any Lutheran illuminati guarding the set so people don’t learn “the truth about Luther.”
Now you’re just being sillly!😉
Since Raumzeitmc2 is slow to respond to my request for the Gospel according to Rome, maybe you could tell me what the Roman Catholic Gospel is?
kaycee,

I know I’ve been slow to respond and I apologize. It’s just that I suddenly find myself super busy (darn!). But I’ll do the best I can.

First, let me say that I most assuredly didn’t “mock” the “gospel of grace.” I simply pointed out the absurdity of a certain *interpretation * which Protestants place upon it (which has yet to be responded to, btw.).

As to the question of exactly what is the Gospel, this can be somewhat involved. The proper place to start, however, ought to be with the words of Christ, rather than with those of the apostle.

Now Jesus’ Gospel is the Gospel of the Kingdom:

“After John had been delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee preaching the gospel of God and saying, ‘The fullness of time is come and the Kingdom of God is high; repent, and believe the gospel.’” Mark 1:14

This Gospel of the Kingdom (or *Kingdom of God *), is also known as the Mystical Body of Christ. This is the Catholic Church, “the pillar and foundation of the truth” (1 Tim. 3:15).

But enough for now. There is of course, much more to say, but it will have to wait for latter. In the meantime, you’ll be able to reflect on what I’ve just said.

God bless.
 
=Zapfenstreich;5192084]That whole “sin boldly” and “OSAS” attitude on the part of so many Christians just screams presumption to me.
Luther’s letter to Melanchton has nothing to do with OSAS. In fact, Lutherans know it is unbiblical, and state so in our Confessions.
Oh yeah, I’m saved because I made an act of faith once… as though Christ were in a game of spiritual tag with the believer, and all you have to do is tag him, and once He’s “it”, He’s under eternal obligation to save your soul, no matter how flagrantly you sin afterwards?
Nonsense. Not only nonsense, it’s insulting to everyone involved.
I absolutely agree.
Sin boldly: add to Christ’s sufferings on Calvary instead of working to reform your sinful ways. Unreal.
Did you read Luther’s letter to Melanchton? If you did, you wouldn’t make this comment.
They say that Luther used to read the Bible while moving his bowels. I’m not surprised at the results.
Who is they? And why would you believe that a common timeframe would necessarily lead to some causation?

Jon
 
llol, Ok, let me give a quick cliff notes version of what the Catholic gospel is.

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020:%202-17;&version=31;

"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. You shall have no other gods before [a] me. "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments. "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you. "You shall not murder. "You shall not commit adultery. "You shall not steal. "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

Recapitualed by Christ in

Matt 5
Matt 6
Matt 7

Oh snap! another non answer
No, thats an answer!

Thanks

🙂
 
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