SIN caused SPIRITUAL death right?

[itullian]

PHYSICAL death was caused by God blocking the way to the tree of life, correct?

If God had let Adam and Eve still eat from it they’d have lived forever.

so sin did not directy cause physical death,right.

so how did sin effect the rest of creation then?

 

[AnneElizabeth]

Not sure I follow you, but then again, I think I do.

Could you elaborate more?

(Is this about the teaching of Dr. Scott Hahn- about spiritual death and sin?)

 

[itullian]

Not sure I follow you, but then again, I think I do.

Could you elaborate more?

(Is this about the teaching of Dr. Scott Hahn- about spiritual death and sin?)

well, people say we die from orig sin, but we dont.

God took away our immortallity. it wasnt the sin. we’d have lived forever still if God didnt block the tree.

so essentially He killed us, right?

 

[triumphguy]

No…

It’s like if I remove the alternator from my car (my choice), pretty soon the car will drain the battery and it will not run.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

The manufacturer put the alternator in their to give the car “eternal” electrical life.

Removing the alternator drastically reduces the electrical “life-span” of the car.

So it’s like the serpent was a TV mechanic who said to Eve, “Sign on to my youtube page and you’ll have the knowledge of good and evil car repair. First: toss out your alternator.”

 

[grannymh]

PHYSICAL death was caused by God blocking the way to the tree of life, correct?

If God had let Adam and Eve still eat from it they’d have lived forever.

so sin did not directy cause physical death,right.

so how did sin effect the rest of creation then?

Are you referring to the Catholic doctrines regarding Original Sin committed by the real human person, biblically known as Adam?

The first Scripture reference is in the first three chapters of Genesis. Romans 5: 12-21 is a New Testament reference.

Original Sin is a class or category all its own. Catholicism has specific doctrines about Original Sin and its specific relationship with Adam’s descendants. Connected to Original Sin is the Catholic doctrine of monogenism regarding Adam and Eve as the founders of humankind.

As far as I know, there is no Catholic doctrinal declaration that “PHYSICAL death was caused by God blocking the way to the tree of life, correct?”

However, I readily admit that I am still learning about our two, sole, first ancestors. Therefore, would you please explain where the concept “PHYSICAL death was caused by God blocking the way to the tree of life, correct?” comes from? It may be indirectly related to one of the major Catholic doctrines – if that is correct, please give the doctrine so that I can learn from it.

Thank you.

 

[itullian]

Are you referring to the Catholic doctrines regarding Original Sin committed by the real human person, biblically known as Adam?

Original Sin is a class or category all its own. Catholicism has specific doctrines about Original Sin and its specific relationship with Adam’s descendants. Connected to Original Sin is the Catholic doctrine of monogenism regarding Adam and Eve as the founders of humankind.

As far as I know, there is no Catholic doctrinal declaration that “PHYSICAL death was caused by God blocking the way to the tree of life, correct?”

However, I readily admit that I am still learning about our two, sole, first ancestors. Thus would you please explain where the concept “PHYSICAL death was caused by God blocking the way to the tree of life, correct?” comes from. It may be indirectly related to one of the major Catholic doctrines – if that is correct, please give the doctrine so that I can learn from it.

Thank you.

after Adam sinned it says God blocked his way from the tree of life. so the sin didn’t kill him, blocking his way did.

 

[mgoforth]

well, people say we die from orig sin, but we dont.

God took away our immortallity. it wasnt the sin. we’d have lived forever still if God didnt block the tree.

so essentially He killed us, right?

It sounds like you’re trying to put the blame on God??

The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.” Genesis 2: 16-17

The Tree of Knowledge is simply a metaphor for sin and disobedience. Adam and Eve should have relied on God completely and trusted Him to show them what was good and what was evil. They decided that wasn’t enough for them.

The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. Genesis 3: 4-6

Adam and Eve ate from the tree because they wanted to be their own gods, controlling their own destinies and deciding for themselves what was good and evil. At that instant they died spiritually. They severed their spiritual bond with God, the same way each of us does when we commit a mortal sin.

Yes, they would have lived forever physically in this state if God had allowed them to eat from the Tree of Life, as we see here:

Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. Genesis 3: 22-23

But what you’re not understanding is that God blocked the way to the Tree of Life out of mercy. Think about it…Adam and Eve were dead inside, they were separated from God spiritually with no way back (since Christ hadn’t come yet to save them). They would never find true happiness apart from God in this world…so should God have made this spiritual death sentence permanent by making them live forever in their sin? In His infinite wisdom and mercy, He allowed them to die physically so that eventually they could be resurrected physically and spiritually through Christ.

 

[triumphguy]

after Adam sinned it says God blocked his way from the tree of life. so the sin didn’t kill him, blocking his way did.

Back to the alternator analogy:

So Adam and Eve are about to hit the highway (to Hell) and God says “You’re not going on that highway without an alternator, sorry and all that, but that’s how it is!”

So is God stopping them, or is he realizing that they are about to get further up the creek without a paddle (to mix my metaphors).

But God already has a fix in mind - His Son.

 

[grannymh]

after Adam sinned it says God blocked his way from the tree of life. so the sin didn’t kill him, blocking his way did.

What I need to know is the Catholic doctrine(s) for the context for Genesis 3: 22.

Perhaps it would be easier to describe the “sin” of which you speak in terms of Catholic doctrine.

Catholic doctrines are what have to be taken literally. For example. The account of the Fall, which pertains to Original Sin itself does use some figurative language. Catholic doctrine literally affirms the reality of Original Sin as a deed taking place at the beginning of human history. A good source of information is the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 355-421.
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

 

[TimothyH]

No…

It’s like if I remove the alternator from my car (my choice), pretty soon the car will drain the battery and it will not run.

http://www.secondchancegarage.com/articles/images/alternatorLARGE.gif

The manufacturer put the alternator in their to give the car “eternal” electrical life.

Removing the alternator drastically reduces the electrical “life-span” of the car.

So it’s like the serpent was a TV mechanic who said to Eve, “Sign on to my youtube page and you’ll have the knowledge of good and evil car repair. First: toss out your alternator.”

You know that the blow up of the alternator was one of the greatest posts I have ever seen here on CAF.

Truly sublime. I can’t help staring at it. I hope Jesus rewards you greatly for that.

I’m thinking that the belt turning the pully is like the action of the Holy Spirit, the coils are like God the Father who creates all 12 volt DC current, and the stator is like Christ, through whom all current is created. Is Our Lady likened to a fusable link? Have modernists substituted relays for good ol’ fashioned fuses? Should I get an Ordinary Form battery or an Extraordinary Form battery?

I’m going to stop now before I get banned.

-Tim-

 

[triumphguy]

Thanks Tim: Phew - I was wondering if anyone understood the analogy:thumbsup:

 

[grannymh]

Thanks Tim: Phew - I was wondering if anyone understood the analogy:thumbsup:

I, too, appreciated the analogy. People often toss out God’s invitation to happiness eternal.

Maybe it is because I do not understand cars beyond the steering wheel, brakes, and gas tank. But this old, cranky (feminine of snarky) granny would like to know which part is Original Sin itself. If Adam tosses out the alternator, then what constitutes Original Sin exactly?

 

[triumphguy]

I, too, appreciated the analogy. People often toss out God’s invitation to happiness eternal.

Maybe it is because I do not understand cars beyond the steering wheel, brakes, and gas tank. But this old, cranky (feminine of snarky) granny would like to know which part is Original Sin itself. If Adam tosses out the alternator, then what constitutes Original Sin exactly?

Original sin: Going on youtube and figuring you can do it yourself better than original, rather than letting the master mechanic (God) fix things for you. Or understanding that He built it right the first time.

youtube.com/watch?v=_vkk43c68rw

 

[itullian]

Back to the alternator analogy:

So Adam and Eve are about to hit the highway (to Hell) and God says “You’re not going on that highway without an alternator, sorry and all that, but that’s how it is!”

So is God stopping them, or is he realizing that they are about to get further up the creek without a paddle (to mix my metaphors).

But God already has a fix in mind - His Son.

if He had the fix in mind, his Son, why wipe everyone out in a food?
why make us die?

 

[triumphguy]

if He had the fix in mind, his Son, why wipe everyone out in a food?
why make us die?

"O Happy Fault, oh necessary sin of Adam which gained for us so great a Redeemer!”

The joy of these words is surprising, since we’re accustomed to think of Adam and Eve’s sin as a great tragedy. God created man in His own image and loved him with infinite love. God gave man free will, with the capacity to respond freely to God. Man misused that free will to rebel against God, and thereby infected the human race with Original Sin. Before man’s Fall, some of God’s angels had also rebelled against their Creator, and in their hatred had infected nature itself with evil. So we must say that all evil, physical as well as moral, is ultimately the result of sin, either angelic sin or human sin.

Why, then, does the Church through her liturgy dare to speak of the Fall as a “happy fault” or a “necessary sin?”

You see, had our first parents not fallen by sin, they would have remained in a state of supernatural grace. Eventually they would have been taken into heaven, and would have shared in the vision of God. For unfallen persons, that would be the deepest possible union between God and human beings.

Now again, why does the Church lead us to rejoice in the Fall of the human race? The reason is that through the redemption of Jesus Christ we have been restored to the supernatural state in a way far surpassing in glory what we could have known had there been no Fall.

Dom Bruno Webb, an English Benedictine, sums up what God in His unimaginable mercy has done and will do for us: “Instead of restoring man to what he had been, God has bent down from His eternity, taking him into His arms and pressing him to His heart in an embrace so close that the gulf between Creator and creature has been bridged, God and man henceforth forming in the order of grace a single being, ‘the whole Christ.’” (Webb, Why Does God Permit Evil?, 70f.)

chnetwork.org/2012/04/o-felix-culpa-oh-happy-fault-by-fr-ray-ryland/

 

[PJM]

=itullian;9699332]PHYSICAL death was caused by God blocking the way to the tree of life, correct?

If God had let Adam and Eve still eat from it they’d have lived forever.

so sin did not directy cause physical death,right.

so how did sin effect the rest of creation then?

Yep, your confused happens to most of us now and then.

When God Created Adam and Eve it was His intent that they all all off spring “WOULD LIVE physically forever.”

Verses 16-17 "16] And he commanded him, saying: Of every tree of paradise thou shalt eat: [17] But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death

Some of the consequecs to Orgianl Sin is Death, sickness and suffering:

Gen. 2:6-10
But a spring rose out of the earth, watering all the surface of the earth. And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul. And the Lord God had planted a paradise of pleasure from the beginning: wherein he placed man whom he had formed. And the Lord God brought forth of the ground all manner of trees, fair to behold, and pleasant to eat of: the tree of life also in the midst of paradise: and the tree of knowledge of good and evil."

Gen. 3: 6-7 “And the woman saw that the tree was good to eat, and fair to the eyes, and delightful to behold: and she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave to her husband who did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened: and when they perceived themselves to be naked, they sewed together fig leaves, and made themselves aprons.”

Verses 16-19 "To the woman also he said: I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thou shalt be under thy husband’s power, and he shall have dominion over thee. And to Adam he said: Because thou hast hearkened to the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldst not eat, cursed is the earth in thy work; with labour and toil shalt thou eat thereof all the days of thy life. Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herbs of the earth.** In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth, out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return.**

So here we DO SEE PHYSICAL Death as a DIRECT consequence of Original sin.

God either caused the tree of life to vanish or changed their potential of everlasting life.

Hope this answers your question?

pat /PJM

 

[itullian]

Yep, your confused happens to most of us now and then.

When God Created Adam and Eve it was His intent that they all all off spring “WOULD LIVE physically forever.”

Verses 16-17 "16] And he commanded him, saying: Of every tree of paradise thou shalt eat: [17] But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death

Some of the consequecs to Orgianl Sin is Death, sickness and suffering:

Gen. 2:6-10
But a spring rose out of the earth, watering all the surface of the earth. And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul. And the Lord God had planted a paradise of pleasure from the beginning: wherein he placed man whom he had formed. And the Lord God brought forth of the ground all manner of trees, fair to behold, and pleasant to eat of: the tree of life also in the midst of paradise: and the tree of knowledge of good and evil."

Gen. 3: 6-7 “And the woman saw that the tree was good to eat, and fair to the eyes, and delightful to behold: and she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave to her husband who did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened: and when they perceived themselves to be naked, they sewed together fig leaves, and made themselves aprons.”

Verses 16-19 "To the woman also he said: I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thou shalt be under thy husband’s power, and he shall have dominion over thee. And to Adam he said: Because thou hast hearkened to the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldst not eat, cursed is the earth in thy work; with labour and toil shalt thou eat thereof all the days of thy life. Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herbs of the earth.** In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth, out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return.**

So here we DO SEE PHYSICAL Death as a DIRECT consequence of Original sin.

God either caused the tree of life to vanish or changed their potential of everlasting life.

Hope this answers your question?

pat /PJM

but the sin didnt kill them, blocking them from the tree killed them. sindidnt directly kill them. God decided they should die.
theyd have lived forever even though they sinned if they ate from the tree of life.

 

[grannymh]

but the sin didnt kill them, blocking them from the tree killed them. sindidnt directly kill them. God decided they should die.
theyd have lived forever even though they sinned if they ate from the tree of life.

I am not sure why Catholic doctrine is being supplanted by a tree. (Pun is acceptable.)
In any case, here is some interesting information.
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
Warning: This is not a page-turner.
My suggestion for brave curious people is to study paragraphs 355-421.
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/355.htm

 

[mgoforth]

but the sin didnt kill them, blocking them from the tree killed them. sindidnt directly kill them. God decided they should die.
theyd have lived forever even though they sinned if they ate from the tree of life.

Do you realize that Adam and Eve are recognized as saints? So they were redeemed through Christ after they died.

How would that have happened if God had allowed them to live forever on Earth?

Isn’t life in Heaven more important than life or death in this world?

 

[PJM]

=itullian;9702273]but the sin didnt kill them, blocking them from the tree killed them. sindidnt directly kill them. God decided they should die.
theyd have lived forever even though they sinned if they ate from the tree of life.

No my friend;

REREAD the bible passages; cleary it is the sin that Killed them [or more accuratly made them mere mortals] like us.

God Bless,
Pat