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mgoforth
Guest
Do you think it’s bad/wrong that they didn’t continue to live? I’m trying to understand where you’re going with this.disagree
if they continued to eat from the tree of life they would have lived.
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itullian
Guest
i’m just looking for clarity.
the “tree of life” scenario always fascinated me and it seems many people don’t give it much thought.
many implications come from that tree, i think.
we always talk of the “tree of good and evil”, but not this one.
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mgoforth
Guest
Haydock’s Catholic Bible Commentary has this to say in reference to Genesis 2:9:i’m just looking for clarity.
the “tree of life” scenario always fascinated me and it seems many people don’t give it much thought.
many implications come from that tree, i think.
we always talk of the “tree of good and evil”, but not this one.
“The Tree of Life - So called, because it had that quality, that by eating of the fruit of it, man would have been preserved in a constant state of health, vigour, and strength, and would not have died at all.”
“The Tree of Knowledge - To which the deceitful serpent falsely attributed the power of imparting a superior kind of knowledge beyond that which God was pleased to give. (Challoner) — The tree of knowledge, could not communicate any wisdom to man; but, by eating of its forbidden fruit, Adam dearly purchased the knowledge of evil, to which he was before a stranger.”
I emphasized the words “wisdom” and “knowledge” because of course they’re not the same. God told Adam and Eve that they didn’t need to have first-hand knowledge of evil…they disagreed, which wasn’t very wise.
Please share…what implications do you think the Tree of Life gives us?
I think both are metaphors, not literal trees. So I think it’s possible (and even likely) that the Tree of Knowledge is the symbol for disobedience, and the Tree of Life is the symbol for Christ (who is perfect obedience…even unto death).
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itullian
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very possible
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mgoforth
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billcu1
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Yep, your confused
When God Created Adam and Eve it was His intent that they all all off spring “WOULD LIVE physically forever.”
Verses 16-17 "16] And he commanded him, saying: Of every tree of paradise thou shalt eat: [17] But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death
Some of the consequecs to Orgianl Sin is Death, sickness and suffering:
Gen. 2:6-10
But a spring rose out of the earth, watering all the surface of the earth. And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul. And the Lord God had planted a paradise of pleasure from the beginning: wherein he placed man whom he had formed. And the Lord God brought forth of the ground all manner of trees, fair to behold, and pleasant to eat of: the tree of life also in the midst of paradise: and the tree of knowledge of good and evil."
Gen. 3: 6-7 “And the woman saw that the tree was good to eat, and fair to the eyes, and delightful to behold: and she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave to her husband who did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened: and when they perceived themselves to be naked, they sewed together fig leaves, and made themselves aprons.”
Verses 16-19 "To the woman also he said: I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thou shalt be under thy husband’s power, and he shall have dominion over thee. And to Adam he said: Because thou hast hearkened to the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldst not eat, cursed is the earth in thy work; with labour and toil shalt thou eat thereof all the days of thy life. Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herbs of the earth.** In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth, out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return.**
So here we DO SEE PHYSICAL Death as a DIRECT consequence of Original sin.
God either caused the treeof life to vanish or changed their potential of everlasting life.
Hope this answers your question?
pat /PJM
There are many meanings to the story in Genesis. One thing I find alittle distasteful in the catholic church is that good food is found to be created by god. Ever wonder why the food that we are supposed to eat that is good for us, doesn’t taste good. We are to eat in sorrow and solemnity and remember there was a time we didn’t have to do this. (eat) Life came directly from the source.
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itullian
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i like the food thats good for us
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fisherman_carl
Guest
The tree of Life was blocked so that man could not eat of it and remain in an eternal state of separation from God. We first needed a savior. In Rev. Jesus says he will give the right to eat of the tree of Life.
yes, but in a state of eternal separation.
According to Genesis physical death was a consequence of sin. ‘From dust…to dust’.
Nowhere does scripture indicate animals were created to be immortal to begin with. Since animals are not capable of moral decisions they can not be accountable. Nor would they be punished for the human fall.
Man was given an immortal soul when God breathed life into him and made him in His image and likeness.
" for God created man for incorruption,
and made him in the image of his own eternity, but through the devil’s envy death entered the world,
and those who belong to his party experience it."
- Wis 2:23-24
catholic.com/magazine/articles/before-sin
“To him who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’”
- Rev 2:7
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itullian
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what about “thorns and thistles will grow?”
thats the rest of creation, no?
then why wait thousands of years to send the saviour?
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fisherman_carl
Guest
Thorns and thistles are part of man’s punishment not the rest of creation. Thorns and thistles most likely already existed but apparently not in the garden of Eden. Creation may be in some way be affected by man’s fallen state but it itself is not being punished.what about “thorns and thistles will grow?”
thats the rest of creation, no?
then why wait thousands of years to send the saviour?
God’s timing is not our timing. A day is like a thousand years to him. Be thankful that he did send us a saviour. And its not like you had to wait for him because for us he has already come.
If you look at salvation history you see that God was preparing to send us a saviour since Eve. You can follow the blood line from Adam to Jesus and you see all along God preparing for the arrival of a king and his kingdom to enter our world, and a kingdom that would last forever and promise eternal life to all who would enter it. This is truly fulfilled in Christ who became a ransom for us to cleanse us all of sin and reunite us with God.
God’s plan of salvation is so enormous that he has not revealed everything to us yet. We still await the return of Christ and everything will be made plain and the sons of God will be revealed. As it says in scripture all of creation groans for these things to happen.
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itullian
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idk, still confusing to me.
i think “thorns and thistles” means all creation was affected
i think “thorns and thistles” means all creation was affected
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fisherman_carl
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All of creation affected – sure. But, all of creation not punished or under condemnation. God did not give the animals any kind of punishment in Genesis. He only gave punishment to those involved - Satan, Adam, and Eve.idk, still confusing to me.
i think “thorns and thistles” means all creation was affected
I also got the impression that maybe you are mad at God for punishing Adam and Eve. Is this correct? You seem to be emphasizing that God is responsible for man’s death and minimizing it as a consequence to sin.
Consider this analogy. Is a policeman at fault for putting a criminal in jail who broke the law? Its not really the policeman’s fault for putting the man in jail is it? It is really the criminals fault for breaking the law. The policeman is just doing his duty to see that criminals receive their fair justice.
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itullian
Guest
yes, its A and Es fault all the way. they were warned.
so animals were always dying then?
only A and E were immortal?
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fisherman_carl
Guest
Yes. I believe that is Catholic teaching. Animals were not given an immortal soul and created in God’s image and likeness. It stand to reason then that animals died before the fall and death was part of the natural ecosystem that God created.
The question then becomes if animals could die then why not man? Well, man could die. God said that they would die if they ate of the tree of knowledge. So it was not impossible for them to die since God said they could. However, because God gave them an immortal soul death of the body does not mean death of the soul.
But, What happened after Adam and Eve ate of the apple? Did they actually die? They did not physically die until like 900 years later or so. Yet God said they would die. The death that they immediately experienced was a spiritual death. They were separated from God and thrown out of the garden. The physical death came much later because God planned to use them for his purposes in populating the world.
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