Sin Doesn't Exist

[jasphair]

Greetings,

I don’t believe sin exists. Of course, many would say I’m a sinner in denial, or that satan is tricking me into feeling more comfortable with my sins. I disagree.

I’ve been told that sin, by definition, is a act performed against the known will of God. It is a clear decision to disobey.

If, for example, someone kills someone. The Church would say, “that person committed a sin, they chose to disobey against the known will of God”. Do sane people kill people, however? I’m not talking about military troops or anything like that, but when the average person kills someone, are they choosing to do so? Are they sinning? I would side more with the idea that they likely have some sort of psychological issue. If this is the case, they did not knowingly choose to sin, but rather, their issue caused them to sin. It’s not as if some fallen angel whispered into their ear, and said “ssssssinnner, kill himmmmmmm”. That’s cute, but unrealistic.

If, for example, I fornicate with someone, it’s probably out of love for them that I do so. It’s not a decision of disobeying, it’s acting on feelings, emotion, and human nature. We are sexual creatures by design, much like every other mammal on the planet. When we act on our sexual instincts, we’re acting like animals - which we are, albeit a bit higher up the chain. When I engage in this activity, I’m not saying “well God thinks this, and I don’t care, I do what I want!”, it’s more of “I care for this person, and I want to share myself with them.” Unfortunately, the Church makes me feel like a real Hitler for doing so, but given that the church pre-dates the Scarlet Letter and times when fornicators were killed, cast out, etc, I’m not surprised. In time, the old world will die off, and the new will take over.

It would seem as though “sins” have been more or less things looked down upon by the societies of old. If you do , you are a bad person, and need redemption! Shame on you!

Oh, and even if sin does exist, whose fault is it? Surely it is not Adam and Eve’s fault. It’s God’s fault for letting the ssssssnake down here! So you mean to tell me, God’s going to punish sinners, whom He indirectly caused to fall into sin?

I don’t know about all this.

 

[DOShea]

When I engage in this activity, I’m not saying “well God thinks this, and I don’t care, I do what I want!”,

Whether you like it or not, that’s exactly what you are doing. All your personal justification does not alter the rules God gave to man, one of which is, that activity is a sin.

If you really, truly believe sin does not exist, then would you be kind enough to explain why the Son of God became man and allowed Himself to be nailed to a cross? Why would God command Moses to give to the Hebrew nation a whole slew of laws involving specific rituals of offering sacrifices in atonement for those sins?

Why, for 2000 years many of the most learned men and women on the planet have examined these texts we call scripture and come away with a totally different view than yours? Were they all wrong, and suddenly, today, you have figured it all out, making about 3/4 of the actions in those scriptures completely unnecessary?

Perhaps you could examine those texts and present a case of Jesus preaching the word in a way that reflects your personal viewpoint? Perhaps begin with these words:

[bibledrb] Matt 9:13[/bibledrb]

As to your assertion we are nothing but a higher form of animal… if that’s so, why are there any laws against killing? I don’t see lions and tigers given lethal injection for doing what they are capable of, but humans occasionally are. Obviously someone disagrees with you if we have laws like that. Could that be because we are NOT simply a higher form of animal? Could it be that we possess the capacity to do many things animals do not, such as writing poetry, music, or even rationalizing behavior by denying it violates anything, or blaming God for any consequences of a decision one makes? I don’t see that anywhere in the animal world, do you?

 

[Eagelswings]

Sin does exist. One of the biggest mistakes is believing sin is only a word in the dictionary. When Cain killed Abel Cain was not insane, he was jealous. Likewise so was David when he had Uriah killed so he could have his wife. God punished them both because they knew what they were doing.

The difference between killing someone out of insanity and pre-meditated murder is that an insane person may not realize what they have done, nor can they understand the consequences and usually they don’t have the intention of killing anyone but are caught in a moment when they are lost in their own minds. Although this does not make killing a person justifiable, but it is taken into consideration because the insane person had little control.

Now in the story of David in Uriah, David was sane but he let raw desire and instinct cloud his mind and he had Uriah killed on the battlefield to get his wife. David planned the whole thing out. He knew what he was doing and how he was going to carry it out. Chances are if you set up someone to die while covering yourself up, you are sane but you are also evil. Although David was repentant for what he had done. While murder is unjustifiable, it is forgivable by God but only if you truly regret what you had done.

Both Cain and David commited grave sins in they eyes of God. They didn’t suffer from schitzophrania or anything like that. They both knew what they were doing when they carried out their plans.

As for sex, God made Adam and Eve husband and wife. We higher than the animals and are capable of going against instinct for the greater good. And if you notice, animals such as wolves have mates who stay with them for a lifetime. Would it be wrong to wait to have sex until marrige since even animals have mates?

 

[jasphair]

If you really, truly believe sin does not exist, then would you be kind enough to explain why the Son of God became man and allowed Himself to be nailed to a cross? Why would God command Moses to give to the Hebrew nation a whole slew of laws involving specific rituals of offering sacrifices in atonement for those sins?

Because… he didn’t?

Why, for 2000 years many of the most learned men and women on the planet have examined these texts we call scripture and come away with a totally different view than yours? Were they all wrong, and suddenly, today, you have figured it all out, making about 3/4 of the actions in those scriptures completely unnecessary?

Because… scriptures are not proof of anything, and people are gullable? When people need a pick-me-up, they turn to God, get the warm and fuzzies, and feel better about life?

 

[puzzleannie]

Greetings,

I don’t believe sin exists. Of course, many would say I’m a sinner in denial, or that satan is tricking me into feeling more comfortable with my sins. I disagree.

I’ve been told that sin, by definition, is a act performed against the known will of God. It is a clear decision to disobey.
.

lucky you to never have been the victim of someone else’s sin, or never to have observed first, second or third hand the results of someone else’s sin. When you have lived more and experienced more this dilemma will, sadly, resolve itself.

 

[DOShea]

Well then, all I can tell you is that eternal life should be very easy for you to achieve since there is no obstacle to it you can’t rationalize around. Your belief is your choice, so I’m not sure why you even asked the question. What is your purpose in asking it?

 

[Bailey2]

If you do not believe in sin, which is defined as “an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience and a failure in genuine love for God and neighbor (ie. selfishness) caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods (in your case misuse of the good of sex even in secular law by the way)…”, than you would also need to say you don’t believe in virtue, choices based on sound reason, truth, and right conscience.

With regard to your argument regarding mental illness, etc. “Unintentional ignorance (ie. due to illness, intense and not pre-planned passion, or lack of being taught) can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grace offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man.”

But, my point again is, if you don’t believe sin exists than virtue doesn’t exist either because the two exist by comparison.

 

[jasphair]

Well then, all I can tell you is that eternal life should be very easy for you to achieve since there is no obstacle to it you can’t rationalize around. Your belief is your choice, so I’m not sure why you even asked the question. What is your purpose in asking it?

Ahh yes, rationalization. That’s the problem with theoryology. It would seem that every person and his mom has their own opinions, but we simply don’t know.

The sooner the world wakes up and realizes we have no idea whom our creator is (or if it’s any importance), the sooner we can live lives like normal people, not wage wars over the “divine”, etc.

There’s a movement afoot which suggests the idea that “There’s probably not a god… so just live your life!”. I couldn’t agree with this more. You can spend your entire life trying to figure it out, or you can operate like a normal human being, the way we were designed, and when you die, you can figure it out like everyone else (assuming anything is revealed!)

The more I question, the more I’m falling away. It’s not that I’m an ignorant prick, it’s simply the bigger your eyes widen, the more you see, and what I see, is that nobody really knows.

At this point, I’m on the verge of not believing in a specific god. I also do not believe in mankind. I do believe in the power of love, and that it’s the foundation of everything (and everything we’re missing - NOT God’s divine intervention). If there was more love, there’d be more peace, more happiness, more joy, all of those things we can’t seem to achieve on our own.

 

[jasphair]

If you do not believe in sin, which is defined as “an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience and a failure in genuine love for God and neighbor (ie. selfishness) caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods (in your case misuse of the good of sex even in secular law by the way)…”, than you would also need to say you don’t believe in virtue, choices based on sound reason, truth, and right conscience.

With regard to your argument regarding mental illness, etc. “Unintentional ignorance (ie. due to illness, intense and not pre-planned passion, or lack of being taught) can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grace offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man.”

But, my point again is, if you don’t believe sin exists than virtue doesn’t exist either because the two exist by comparison.

Dictionary.com says “sin” is: “any act regarded as such a transgression, esp. a willful or deliberate violation of** some **religious or moral principle” What were you quoting there, the Cathechism?

If you do not believe in sin, then the whole point of Christianity is lost. Likewise, if you choose to not believe in the theory of Jesus Christ, but rather, are open to the concept of A god (e.g. agnosticism), then sin isn’t something you worry about, and or believe in.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Greetings,

I don’t believe sin exists. Of course, many would say I’m a sinner in denial, or that satan is tricking me into feeling more comfortable with my sins. I disagree.

I’ve been told that sin, by definition, is a act performed against the known will of God. It is a clear decision to disobey.

If, for example, someone kills someone. The Church would say, “that person committed a sin, they chose to disobey against the known will of God”. Do sane people kill people, however? I’m not talking about military troops or anything like that, but when the average person kills someone, are they choosing to do so? Are they sinning? I would side more with the idea that they likely have some sort of psychological issue. If this is the case, they did not knowingly choose to sin, but rather, their issue caused them to sin. It’s not as if some fallen angel whispered into their ear, and said “ssssssinnner, kill himmmmmmm”. That’s cute, but unrealistic.

If, for example, I fornicate with someone, it’s probably out of love for them that I do so. It’s not a decision of disobeying, it’s acting on feelings, emotion, and human nature. We are sexual creatures by design, much like every other mammal on the planet. When we act on our sexual instincts, we’re acting like animals - which we are, albeit a bit higher up the chain. When I engage in this activity, I’m not saying “well God thinks this, and I don’t care, I do what I want!”, it’s more of “I care for this person, and I want to share myself with them.” Unfortunately, the Church makes me feel like a real Hitler for doing so, but given that the church pre-dates the Scarlet Letter and times when fornicators were killed, cast out, etc, I’m not surprised. In time, the old world will die off, and the new will take over.

It would seem as though “sins” have been more or less things looked down upon by the societies of old. If you do , you are a bad person, and need redemption! Shame on you!

Oh, and even if sin does exist, whose fault is it? Surely it is not Adam and Eve’s fault. It’s God’s fault for letting the ssssssnake down here! So you mean to tell me, God’s going to punish sinners, whom He indirectly caused to fall into sin?

I don’t know about all this.

When you get to where you’re going, ask the big red guy with the pitchfork.

 

[jasphair]

When you get to where you’re going, ask the big red guy with the pitchfork.

See, and that’s the problem right there. When you directly or indirectly suggest that someone is going to a place of eternal pain and suffering… they don’t much care for that, and thus, do not respond well to it.

No sin = no hell = no problem = people not flaking out = one step closer to people acting civilized.

If you’ve lived your life a happy agnostic, loving all who come across your path, loving your creator, though you do not necessarily believe him to be Jesus Christ, but rather, are open to the idea… and God still damns you for being open-minded. Well then, I’d say God’s the one with the poor attitude, but that’s just my opinion.

 

[06convert]

Greetings,

I don’t believe sin exists. Of course, many would say I’m a sinner in denial, or that satan is tricking me into feeling more comfortable with my sins. I disagree.

Ok, so you don’t believe that sin exists. Why are you here? To change our minds? Of course we think that satan is tricking you, that’s what satan does. Just because you know what we are going to say, doesn’t mean we have to agree with you.

If, for example, someone kills someone. The Church would say, “that person committed a sin, they chose to disobey against the known will of God”. Do sane people kill people, however? I’m not talking about military troops or anything like that, but when the average person kills someone, are they choosing to do so? Are they sinning? I would side more with the idea that they likely have some sort of psychological issue. If this is the case, they did not knowingly choose to sin, but rather, their issue caused them to sin. It’s not as if some fallen angel whispered into their ear, and said “ssssssinnner, kill himmmmmmm”. That’s cute, but unrealistic.

Are you trying to tell me that everyone kills on impulse? Without thinking it through? Without pre-meditation? I can’t believe that. For the few that do, If they truly did not know what they did was sinful, they can’t be held accountable. But if for a second their conscience tried to stop them, they are accountable. That voice inside their head that they used to justify their actions. That was the fallen angel whispering in their ear. Cute? No. Real? Yes.

If, for example, I fornicate with someone, it’s probably out of love for them that I do so. It’s not a decision of disobeying, it’s acting on feelings, emotion, and human nature. We are sexual creatures by design, much like every other mammal on the planet. When we act on our sexual instincts, we’re acting like animals - which we are, albeit a bit higher up the chain.

Incorrect. We are intelligent beings. Capable of weighing consequence of our actions. We don’t respond purely on instinct. We are better than that. We choose to allow our thoughts to control our actions. It’s a choice, not a involunatary action. If you believe it, again you are decieved. “Fornicating” with someone feeds on selfishness, which risks hurting the person, and that is not something that can be done out of love.

When I engage in this activity, I’m not saying “well God thinks this, and I don’t care, I do what I want!”, it’s more of “I care for this person, and I want to share myself with them.”

Actually that’s exactly what you are thinking. Your saying that you don’t need to do this the way God intended. You are saying you want to do it your way and this is how I’m justifing it.

Unfortunately, the Church makes me feel like a real Hitler for doing so, but given that the church pre-dates the Scarlet Letter and times when fornicators were killed, cast out, etc, I’m not surprised. In time, the old world will die off, and the new will take over.

It’s not the church, it’s your conscience making you feel like a “Hitler”. You don’t seem to care much about what the church thinks, have you considered it might be your conscience?

It would seem as though “sins” have been more or less things looked down upon by the societies of old. If you do , you are a bad person, and need redemption! Shame on you!

You aren’t a bad person for sinning. You are a human person. And yes, we all need redemption.

Oh, and even if sin does exist, whose fault is it? Surely it is not Adam and Eve’s fault. It’s God’s fault for letting the ssssssnake down here! So you mean to tell me, God’s going to punish sinners, whom He indirectly caused to fall into sin?

I don’t know about all this.

God didn’t make us sin, we chose that for ourselves. If we choose it, his punishment will be just.

 

[JRKH]

Greetings,

I don’t believe sin exists. Of course, many would say I’m a sinner in denial, or that satan is tricking me into feeling more comfortable with my sins. I disagree.

I’ve been told that sin, by definition, is a act performed against the known will of God. It is a clear decision to disobey.

What you say above is merely that you do not believe that sin “as told to you”, or “as defined for you” by someone else does not exist.
I would ask YOU to define sin.
Do you believe that there is no such thing as objective evil?

If, for example, someone kills someone. The Church would say, “that person committed a sin, they chose to disobey against the known will of God”. Do sane people kill people, however? I’m not talking about military troops or anything like that, but when the average person kills someone, are they choosing to do so?

Can you prove beyond doubt that a sane person is incapable of killing?
God will make the determination about any mitigating circumstances. The only thing that the Church can do is the same thing that the government does. That is declare that Murder is wrong, and there are punishments/consequences for committing the act.

Are they sinning? I would side more with the idea that they likely have some sort of psychological issue. If this is the case, they did not knowingly choose to sin, but rather, their issue caused them to sin. It’s not as if some fallen angel whispered into their ear, and said “ssssssinnner, kill himmmmmmm”. That’s cute, but unrealistic.

Again, one needs to look at each individual case. Just as most courts will do. The one who is accused of murder is evaluated by professionals as to their state of mind. if they are found incompetent they are treated one way. If they are found competent then they are treated another way.
I think that we can trust God to know the difference.

If, for example, I fornicate with someone, it’s probably out of love for them that I do so. It’s not a decision of disobeying, it’s acting on feelings, emotion, and human nature. We are sexual creatures by design, much like every other mammal on the planet.

Just what do you mean we are sexual creatures by design? The fact that we are designed to engage in sex for reproduction does not mean that sex needs to be the main focus of our existance which is what “Sexual creatures” implies IMHO.

When we act on our sexual instincts, we’re acting like animals - which we are, albeit a bit higher up the chain.

Animals act on the sexual urge ONLY for reproduction. They sense when the time is right and act on that instinct. Do you believe that this is how humans act on “our sexual instincts”?

When I engage in this activity, I’m not saying “well God thinks this, and I don’t care, I do what I want!”, it’s more of “I care for this person, and I want to share myself with them.”

But are you prepared for the consequences of that action?
Are you prepared to take on and raise any offspring from “acting on our sexual instincts”?
Do you “care for this person” enough to spend the rest of your life with them no matter what?

You seem to think that the Church sees sex as some sort of evil thing, which it does not. The Church sees sex as a beautiful and essential part of life. The Church also recognizes the great and awesome responsibilites associated with the sex act. Something that the world does not see.
It is precesely BECAUSE of this that the Church teaches us rigorously to control our sexual urges using them properly in both time and place.

Unfortunately, the Church makes me feel like a real Hitler for doing so, but given that the church pre-dates the Scarlet Letter and times when fornicators were killed, cast out, etc, I’m not surprised. In time, the old world will die off, and the new will take over.

Yes, and we anxiously await that day when Christ returns and establishes this New World.

It would seem as though “sins” have been more or less things looked down upon by the societies of old. If you do , you are a bad person, and need redemption! Shame on you!

You may want to consider that you have this backwards.
You view this as:
Society frowned on soemthing - therefore - it became a sin
Try viewing it this way:
This is a Sin - Therefore - Society frowned on it.

Oh, and even if sin does exist, whose fault is it? Surely it is not Adam and Eve’s fault. It’s God’s fault for letting the ssssssnake down here! So you mean to tell me, God’s going to punish sinners, whom He indirectly caused to fall into sin?

I don’t know about all this.

You are asking deep and difficult questions. I hope you are getting illuminative answers.
Pray hard on thse things.

Just as a personal view on the issue of sexual relations and sin.
As a young man, I did engage in fornication and had a child. I married the mother, whom I thought I loved and who I thought loved me. It turned out to be a disaster with the greatest victim being the Child who is now emotionally scarred and into paganism. So as a result of my immature and sinful behavior, my son may well be lost to heaven. This is burden I carry with me forever.
What is the root ocause of all of this heartache? My inability to control my sexual appitite. Yes we had sex because we both cared for each other, and wanted to share this act. We are also young and curious. But we were NOT prepared either spiritually or emotionally to deal with the consequences of the act.

Rules are a good thing. They help us avoid consequences that cannot be adequately explained.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

See, and that’s the problem right there. When you directly or indirectly suggest that someone is going to a place of eternal pain and suffering… they don’t much care for that, and thus, do not respond well to it.

No sin = no hell = no problem = people not flaking out = one step closer to people acting civilized.

If you’ve lived your life a happy agnostic, loving all who come across your path, loving your creator, though you do not necessarily believe him to be Jesus Christ, but rather, are open to the idea… and God still damns you for being open-minded. Well then, I’d say God’s the one with the poor attitude, but that’s just my opinion.

OK - So you reject Hell and You reject Heaven What is left. The Grave. No promise - No future - Just death and corruption.

God has offered us a way out of this. It is a path that requires some effort on our part, just as anything worthwhile requires effort. If you choose to reject that path, then whatever happens at death, whether it be torments of hell or simply death and corruption is your choice. If you choose to follow that path, then the hope is one of eternal life with God.
Frankly I don’t know how anyone can reject hope.

Peace
James

 

[Cristiano]

See, and that’s the problem right there. When you directly or indirectly suggest that someone is going to a place of eternal pain and suffering… they don’t much care for that, and thus, do not respond well to it.

No sin = no hell = no problem = people not flaking out = one step closer to people acting civilized.

If you’ve lived your life a happy agnostic, loving all who come across your path, loving your creator, though you do not necessarily believe him to be Jesus Christ, but rather, are open to the idea… and God still damns you for being open-minded. Well then, I’d say God’s the one with the poor attitude, but that’s just my opinion.

What do you mean with people acting civilized. If there is no sin there is not right or wrong. Any behavior is civilized, even murder, pillage and rape.

Are you saying that God is the one with a poor attitude according to your standards? That is fine with me because you implied that we should not have reason for standards. Or are you implying that God is sinning against you?

You should also understand that an agnostic is a person that does not know if God does exist or not. When you propose a creator you are a theist.

 

[FMLJoliecouer]

Greetings,

I don’t believe sin exists. Of course, many would say I’m a sinner in denial, or that satan is tricking me into feeling more comfortable with my sins. I disagree.

I’ve been told that sin, by definition, is a act performed against the known will of God. It is a clear decision to disobey.

If, for example, someone kills someone. The Church would say, “that person committed a sin, they chose to disobey against the known will of God”. Do sane people kill people, however? I’m not talking about military troops or anything like that, but when the average person kills someone, are they choosing to do so? Are they sinning? I would side more with the idea that they likely have some sort of psychological issue. If this is the case, they did not knowingly choose to sin, but rather, their issue caused them to sin. It’s not as if some fallen angel whispered into their ear, and said “ssssssinnner, kill himmmmmmm”. That’s cute, but unrealistic

If, for example, I fornicate with someone, it’s probably out of love for them that I do so. It’s not a decision of disobeying, it’s acting on feelings, emotion, and human nature. We are sexual creatures by design, much like every other mammal on the planet. When we act on our sexual instincts, we’re acting like animals - which we are, albeit a bit higher up the chain. When I engage in this activity, I’m not saying “well God thinks this, and I don’t care, I do what I want!”, it’s more of “I care for this person, and I want to share myself with them.” Unfortunately, the Church makes me feel like a real Hitler for doing so, but given that the church pre-dates the Scarlet Letter and times when fornicators were killed, cast out, etc, I’m not surprised. In time, the old world will die off, and the new will take over.

It would seem as though “sins” have been more or less things looked down upon by the societies of old. If you do , you are a bad person, and need redemption! Shame on you!

Oh, and even if sin does exist, whose fault is it? Surely it is not Adam and Eve’s fault. It’s God’s fault for letting the ssssssnake down here! So you mean to tell me, God’s going to punish sinners, whom He indirectly caused to fall into sin?

I don’t know about all this.

This discussion could go on forever…it is a very interesting one and what my opinion(not fact) is on the matter is…
If and when a person decides by their own free will to let Jesus into our hearts…and truly asks Jesus out of wanting to be closer to him, for him to reveal the truth and the way and totally put our own will into his hands (which takes an incredible amount of trust), then and only then can we feel our sin.

I lived most of my life never believing i had sinned…and thought I was a loving person, except to myself…
It wasnt until I started hearing the word in a community of faith…(which happened to be a Catholic church) that I started to see myself in a different way…
I felt the most incredible love I have ever felt in my entire life…coming from within…
and it was that love that continues to transform me…and without it…I would not be on the path I have recently chosen…

You are absolutely right Jasphair! SIn does not exist for a person, unless they open themselves up and their hearts to let God in…I never believed in the 10 commandments or even understood the two commandments that Jesus left with His disciples,until I started shedding my sins…the things that kept me from knowing God…such as my addictions, my self-centredness, my pride, my arrogance etc etc…
Therefore if a person feels they have not sinned…when they die…well…I do not know what happens…but I do believe that God knows our hearts and we cannot hide anything from God.

I do think that God intended for us to live in His kingdom while we are alive…and that is what Jesus taught…I am just in the process of discovering what the kingdom is…on a personal level, and my hopes are that I will be able to then take the message to others who want to know what an awesome friend Jesus can be to them…

Thank you Jasphair for your questioning…it helps me to know what is important to me and I send you love with this message…and pray that your heart will be open to receiving the greatest gift of all

That being said, now that I have opened myself up to God, and am living my life more in accordance with His will (although I have a long way to go), I trust that God will do what is just when I die and leave this physical body.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

See, and that’s the problem right there. When you directly or indirectly suggest that someone is going to a place of eternal pain and suffering… they don’t much care for that, and thus, do not respond well to it.

No sin = no hell = no problem = people not flaking out = one step closer to people acting civilized.

If you’ve lived your life a happy agnostic, loving all who come across your path, loving your creator, though you do not necessarily believe him to be Jesus Christ, but rather, are open to the idea… and God still damns you for being open-minded. Well then, I’d say God’s the one with the poor attitude, but that’s just my opinion.

Did you or did you not see the wink? No, I do not wish him to go to Hell. But the reality is that Hell exists, and we are ALL at risk to go there. Pretending otherwise or playing ‘nice’ doesn’t work.

The problem lies not with me, but with those who deny the reality of Hell.

I borrowed the line from Bishop Sheen, BTW.

 

[jasphair]

Did you or did you not see the wink? No, I do not wish him to go to Hell. But the reality is that Hell exists, and we are ALL at risk to go there. Pretending otherwise or playing ‘nice’ doesn’t work.

The problem lies not with me, but with those who deny the reality of Hell.

I borrowed the line from Bishop Sheen, BTW.

Okay… but Hell… out of the Christian context… doesn’t exist, right? So… really, your argument is not factual, is not truth, etc, due to Hell being unable to be proven, outside of so called “sacred scriptures”.

My belief that everyone goes to Heaven, is just as valid as your idea of Hell. You have some writings in an old book. I have plenty who agree with me. What about those who believe we just disappear? What about those who don’t believe in souls?

If you cannot prove it, then don’t declare it the truth, LET ALONE “the one and only way”, or “the way the truth and the life”. That just upsets people who really ARE seeking the truth.

I’m not here to deny anyone. I’m here to find God!

People get angry, saying “Do you expect God to prove himself to you?” Of course I do! If my options are death or life, I need a little more to go on OTHER THAN old writings, and the fact that people have possibly been gullible to believe them.

Oh, and personal testimony = not proof either.

 

[davidv]

Okay… but Hell… out of the Christian context… doesn’t exist, right? So… really, your argument is not factual, is not truth, etc, due to Hell being unable to be proven, outside of so called “sacred scriptures”.

Wrong. Hell exists in every context, even in one where you don’t believe it.

My belief that everyone goes to Heaven, is just as valid as your idea of Hell. You have some writings in an old book. I have plenty who agree with me. What about those who believe we just disappear? What about those who don’t believe in souls?

It is not equally valid. Jesus taught the contrary. He taught that in the end there will be two places for those who have lived. Heaven or Hell.

If you cannot prove it, then don’t declare it the truth, LET ALONE “the one and only way”, or “the way the truth and the life”. That just upsets people who really ARE seeking the truth.

I’m not here to deny anyone. I’m here to find God!

You won’t find Him by denying there is sin

People get angry, saying “Do you expect God to prove himself to you?” Of course I do! If my options are death or life, I need a little more to go on OTHER THAN old writings, and the fact that people have possibly been gullible to believe them.

Oh, and personal testimony = not proof either.

You have demonstrated that whatever evidence is provided will be rejected. So, there will be no proof for you.

 

[Joe_5859]

At this point, I’m on the verge of not believing in a specific god. I also do not believe in mankind. I do believe in the power of love, and that it’s the foundation of everything (and everything we’re missing - NOT God’s divine intervention). If there was more love, there’d be more peace, more happiness, more joy, all of those things we can’t seem to achieve on our own.

But why believe in the “power of love”? How many evils have been committed “in the name of love”?