Sin to deny sexual relations?

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JuneBugJulene said:
I’ve got to say I’m a bit shocked at many of the responses here and many of the assumptions made about me, my husband and our marriage…
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JuneBug- Sorry if our responses were not very helpful to you. Others may have the very same question with completely different details. There *are *situations when it is not wrong to deny sexual relations to one’s spouse, but generally speaking spouses shouldn’t deny the other.

Here’s canon law 1151 http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0017/_P44.HTM

*Can. 1151 Spouses have the obligation and the right to maintain their common conjugal life, unless a lawful reason excuses them. *
 
CatsAndDogs said:
…

There is no double-standard. Where do you see a double-standard?
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Person A is not popular, attractive, etc. and can not find a loving relationship but they drown there sorrows at the office and as a result make a decent living.

Person B is attractive, popular, and loved by all but in there care free life do not work very much or try very hard at work and as a result does not make a great living.

Person A needs love person B needs money. The poplular conjecture is Person A is obligated to provide money to B but person B is in no way obligated to show love to person A. This is a double standard. Of course the B’s out there may not see this.

Assuming the husband is the sole bread winner: If a wife flat out deny’s her husband and does not show love or intent to love, is it her right? If so, is it the husbands right to deny his wife from participating in the financial bennefits of the marriage? If you say the wife can but the husband can’t it is a double standard.
 
I certainly understand that sex is a good thing and that it should not be eliminated from my --or any-- marriage. I have never suggested that it should.

But during our discussion --and it was a discussion, not an argument or a fight-- my husband said that he thought it was a sin to deny sexual relations from a spouse whenever it was requested. That surprised me. (And it it is true I’m more of a sinner than I originally thought.) Does a spouse have an obligation to engage whenever requested?

CITE SOURCES. None of the sources I’ve found have touched upon this subject one way or the other.
 
JuneBugJulene said:
I certainly understand that sex is a good thing and that it should not be eliminated from my --or any-- marriage. I have never suggested that it should.

But during our discussion --and it was a discussion, not an argument or a fight-- my husband said that he thought it was a sin to deny sexual relations from a spouse whenever it was requested. That surprised me. (And it it is true I’m more of a sinner than I originally thought.) Does a spouse have an obligation to engage whenever requested?

CITE SOURCES. None of the sources I’ve found have touched upon this subject one way or the other.
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I have always thought that the word of God is more binding than any law made by man:
1st Corinthian 7:3-5 goes like this:
" 7:3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection owed her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 7:4 The wife doesn’t have authority over her own body, but the husband. Likewise also the husband doesn’t have authority over his own body, but the wife. 7:5 Don’t deprive one another, unless it is by consent for a season, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer, and may be together again, that Satan doesn’t tempt you because of your lack of self-control."
 
JuneBugJulene said:
I certainly understand that sex is a good thing and that it should not be eliminated from my --or any-- marriage. I have never suggested that it should.

But during our discussion --and it was a discussion, not an argument or a fight-- my husband said that he thought it was a sin to deny sexual relations from a spouse whenever it was requested. That surprised me. (And it it is true I’m more of a sinner than I originally thought.) Does a spouse have an obligation to engage whenever requested?

CITE SOURCES. None of the sources I’ve found have touched upon this subject one way or the other.
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JuneBug,

We’ve given you Scripture, Canon Law, the Catechism, and two papal documents. I’m not sure what more you want.

At this point, if you are not denying relations totally and it has become a matter of frequency and mismatched desires, the best thing anyone can suggest is that as a couple you seek the counsel of your priest.
 
newbetx said:
What is the context of this? Marriage DEBT? Does not sound TOBish to me.
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Marriage debt was the traditional theological term for the concept Paul outlined in 1 Cor. 7:3-4. It hasn’t been used as much since Vatican II.
 
The church has long used the term “marriage debt”. I don’t think JP 2 uses it but he does not teach against it.

I found a few other resources on this topic. June Bug you might need to go and get some moral theology books. That’s where the answer lies. Or go talk with a priest and ask to see his moral theology book to help you understand. Your husband isn’t correct that “any and all” requests may not be denied.The teaching is as I have told you and others have told you that there needs to be a just reason.

Here’s and excerpt from a Frank Sheed article-
In entering into this union, each has given to the other (and to the other exclusively) the right to sexual union. Notice that sexual union is a thing due, a right: either is entitled to demand it of the other and, unless there is a very serious reason, neither can refuse it to the other. For the man to refuse his wife or the wife her husband without good reason would be a grave sin. But notice that it is a right, not to any sexual union but to normal sexual union, the union by which, in the way of nature, children are conceived. Abnormal sexual unions are forbidden to the married as to everyone else; abnormalities in the normal sexual union—all the ingenious trickeries that interfere with it to prevent children being conceived—are likewise forbidden. The sexual act must be wholly itself.
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And the right thus given is no merely legalistic right— a mere right to the use of the other’s body for a specified purpose. The will must go with it; as far as possible—it is not always possible, the feelings cannot be commanded— the whole personality must go with it. The marriage act is a duty, certainly, but this is one duty that cannot be done simply as a duty: it must be done generously or it is not being done at all. It can never be repeated too often that the sexual union is not simply a union of bodies; it is a union of personalities, expressing itself in the union of bodies. But precisely because the bodily union has so splendid a function, it should itself be splendidly performed. There is a technical competence to be learned by each, for this is an action not of each individually but of two in unison; each surrendered totally to the rhythm of the other. Where it is rightly done, there is an exquisite physical pleasure for both, for so God has made man and woman. Both are meant to experience this pleasure—each must strive that the other may have it. In its fulness the act not only expresses the union of personalities, the total giving of the body uttering the total giving of the self, but intensifies and enriches it. Where there is any want of generosity in the act by either, the union of personalities is impoverished.
It is interesting to observe how the Church, pictured often enough as the enemy of sex, insists upon all this.
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catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?recnum=1001

An Article I found helpful for my understanding.
ewtn.com/library/MARRIAGE/HARLLCM.TXT
 
JuneBugJulene said:
I certainly understand that sex is a good thing and that it should not be eliminated from my --or any-- marriage. I have never suggested that it should.

But during our discussion --and it was a discussion, not an argument or a fight-- my husband said that he thought it was a sin to deny sexual relations from a spouse whenever it was requested. That surprised me. (And it it is true I’m more of a sinner than I originally thought.) Does a spouse have an obligation to engage whenever requested?

CITE SOURCES. None of the sources I’ve found have touched upon this subject one way or the other.
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JBJ… I think you are right. I’m careful not to say that it is a sin. Many interpret it, but I don’t know too much that is specific. The scripture reference is pretty close I’d say, but there is a very specific set of circumstances at work there. Scripture could be interpreted in a way to make it sound sinful by the woman, but if the man isn’t loving the woman as Christ loves the Church, are all bets off? Again, as near as I can tell, It isn’t so much the denial as the reasons behind the denial. That I get from CW’s TGNAS&M…

Since it is meant to be sign of love, an expression of love, we as married couples, are expected to express our love in this form at times.

Denial can be for many reasons. Any of which, if reasonable, the husband should honor or not ask at all. If the husband is not seeing the act as an act of love, but as a duty to be performed on demand, then his request may not be in the form that scripture references.

A husband CAN be selfish in his desire for the act. A wife CAN be selfish in denying the act. If the act is an act of love between them, then neither is being selfish and it should not be an issue. Men need to be desired, too. IMO, A good and loving man deserves this form of love in return.

So maybe this will help… From CW’s TOB for Beginners. Page 112, Marital Spirituality

“When spouses are open to the gift, the Holy Spirit impregnates there sexual desires ’ with everything that is noble and beautiful,’ with ’ the supreme value, which is love.’ But when spouses, because of their ‘hardness of heart’ close themselves off to the Holy Spirit, sexual union quickly degenerates into an act of lust, an act of mutual exploitation.”

While it is easy to see that having sex can be exploitation, it might be a bit harder to see that denial can be exploitation, too.
At the alter, we say “yes” to everything associated with the relationship. Sex, children, support, love, mutual aid… when we start to say “no” or “maybe, but only if I feel like it” to some aspects of the relationship, we run into trouble quickly. BTDT.
Hope this helps.
 
newbetx said:
…Denial can be for many reasons. Any of which, if reasonable, the husband should honor or not ask at all. If the husband is not seeing the act as an act of love, but as a duty to be performed on demand, then his request may not be in the form that scripture references.

A husband CAN be selfish in his desire for the act. A wife CAN be selfish in denying the act. If the act is an act of love between them, then neither is being selfish and it should not be an issue. Men need to be desired, too. IMO, A good and loving man deserves this form of love in return.
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If a husband sees the act as an act of love, could the lack of the act be seen as a lack of love in the husbands eyes? I think the answer would be no if the denier were actively working to address the issue and showing love in other ways. If it is because of depression or another medical issue, it is hardly a sin. In such a situation it would seem incumbent on the denier to acctively try to address the medical situation and show love in other ways in the interim.
 
newbetx said:
…At the alter, we say “yes” to everything associated with the relationship. Sex, children, support, love, mutual aid… when we start to say “no” or “maybe, but only if I feel like it” to some aspects of the relationship, we run into trouble quickly. BTDT.
Hope this helps.
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This was a very elloquent way of stating something I failed to articulate appropriately in a previous post.
 
MakingMemories said:
My spouse was sexually abused as a child. She has been getting Catholic counseling. I’m hopeful we can have counseling together someday. I’m taking it one day at a time.

Years ago it was a struggle getting her to even consider Catholic council. But the Lord has been patient with both of us. The pastoral care I have received in confession has been a tremendous help as well.

Thank you for the prayers. Lately I have been considering my struggle as a great gift actually as strange as that may sound. God is transforming me. I pray for my wife as she struggles more than I.
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You are proof of the Holy Spirt helping someone. What a positive thing to read for a change. Someone that put someone elses pain before their own. You my friend is what Marriage is about for better or worse. You are taking the worse and sticking it out to make it better. This is what God had in mind, to stick it out when times are tough, you are obeying his commandment and will be greatly rewarded. If not in this world the next for sure. You are carrying you Cross, And doing it with style. You are a example of the Catholic Faith. thankyou.
 
JuneBugJulene said:
I certainly understand that sex is a good thing and that it should not be eliminated from my --or any-- marriage. I have never suggested that it should.

But during our discussion --and it was a discussion, not an argument or a fight-- my husband said that he thought it was a sin to deny sexual relations from a spouse whenever it was requested. That surprised me. (And it it is true I’m more of a sinner than I originally thought.) Does a spouse have an obligation to engage whenever requested?

CITE SOURCES. None of the sources I’ve found have touched upon this subject one way or the other.
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It is interesting to note that if a wife or husband has a car accident or such that part of the lawsuit is the loss of services including sexual realtions.
 
JuneBugJulene said:
I am a 40ish mother. I have never experienced an orgasm and have very little interest in sex. This has been a problem in my marriage, as my husband’s drive is significantly higher than mine.

During a recent discussion he said that it was sinful to deny sexual relations to a spouse without a good reason. Is that true? I have never heard that. Is my inability to get pleasure from sex a good enough reason to deny him sexual relations?
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I say tell him to get over it. If people on this forum can cruely suggest that gays and lsebians should be denied intamate love and affection, then there’s ample room to apply the same inhumane response to your husband. He just has a heavy cross to bear. Tell him that with prayer, he’ll get through it!
 
truagape said:
I say tell him to get over it. If people on this forum can cruely suggest that gays and lsebians should be denied intamate love and affection, then there’s ample room to apply the same inhumane response to your husband. He just has a heavy cross to bear. Tell him that with prayer, he’ll get through it!
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No one said they should be denied intimate relations. Only that they have relations in a moral manner.
 
1 Corinthians 7:5 RSV Do not refuse one another except perhaps by agreement for a season, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, lest Satan tempt you through lack of self-control.

Yes, it is a sin to deny sexual relations to your spouse as you can see from the above Bible verse. As for your inability to obtain an orgasm, perhaps you should see a doctor or a sex therapist.
 
truagape said:
what do you mean by moral manner?
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meaning no sexual acts outside of the intended purpose of the act.

The posts here assume one desires the Church’s teachings. The issue the OP was asking about was concerning Catholic beliefs. That would be that sexual union is reserved for a married man and woman and it is an expresion of love as God intended it and not based on what one “gets out of it.”
 
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