Sin vs. Psychology

[ahs]

I should add that I started this thread partly because occasionally I see posters worrying that their mental health condition, such as self-harm through cutting or an eating disorder, as across-the-board sinful when there’s so much more to it. These questions require a trip to the confessional rather than a CAF log-in.

YES!!! There are SO many people who could better be served by their confessor than by a bunch of random peeps on a forum!

 

[Lee1]

I disagree.
This forum is a resource open to anyone, many posters are qualified people and many others are widely experienced. Additionally many more posters have a good knowledge of scripture and the Catechism and so all in all I’d say that the forum is a great resource for Catholics, which it exists to serve.

People with mental health issues may ask for advice or simply talk about their thoughts anonymously as a precursor to seeking professional help. I’d expect very few people in dire need of emergency intervention would wander into caf for help. I’m sure people who have the nous to use smartphones or computers know about emergency hotlines and mental health service options, and if not we can point them in the right direction if we think they need it.

From a personal point of view, if I thought caf was just chatting without purpose everyday I’d be on here far less. Words have power, to harm, to heal, which is why we are told that we will be judged by them.

If you don’t think what you say on caf is of any worth then maybe you should concentrate more on making the best posts you can? Humility is good, but not self denigration imo, that is rejection of the gift of you given by God.

 

[Lee1]

The human soul is best understood through art and poetry, rather than science.

That is a bias which is unnecessary.

The human soul if it includes mind is best understood in its entirety, not possible by man, only by God. We can cherry pick of course but we don’t want to mislead people by saying that only the things which require finesse are the mirrors of the soul. In fact I thought you stated that emotion was to be discouraged recently. Try producing top art or poetry without the use of emotion.

I come from a middle class background myself but I was a carpenter mostly although not exclusively, when I was a carpenter I put a great deal of effort into it, that was a labour which required all of my self including soul on occasion. Perseverance in physical labour describes the soul, bravery in combat describes the soul, living a life which you perceive as nothing but inane repetition describes a quality of the soul, self sacrifice shown by martyrs and parents describes the soul. And science describes the soul.

The list is endless. Art and poetry, too, but they do not best describe the soul in my opinion any more than the ability to daydream or count seeds on a dandelion.

 

[Lee1]

According to the Church, the mind is part of the soul.

Did you miss this post? You might find it interesting to read as I did.

The Catechism only lists Body and Soul. 364 The human body shares in the dignity of “the image of God”: it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit. 232 Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and ca…

 

[ahs]

Well, Lee1, you make a quality point!

 

[Lee1]

Reading what LeahPaz posted, ie John 9-17 tells us something important I think. Jesus is saying that no, this mans blindness wasn’t caused by the sins of his parents, it’s been allowed by God so that He can show you His works in healing the man.

Mental illness is treatable by medication or therapy of a combination of both. If it’s an organic issue then medication can cure it or ease the effects of having it. Mental illness can also be cured or mitigated by prayer or through spiritual healing in some cases, I’m sure we’ve all read of them apart from those appearing in the bible where even death was ‘cured’, something also sometimes achieved using CPR.

So that indicates that illness can be caused by organic or spiritual means.
The idea of sin is a spiritual one, the idea of therapy is a psychological one. Two causes and two methods of cure no? Perhaps then they are equally valid.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

I should add that I started this thread partly because occasionally I see posters worrying that their mental health condition, such as self-harm through cutting or an eating disorder, as across-the-board sinful when there’s so much more to it. These questions require a trip to the confessional rather than a CAF log-in.

This makes me particularly anxious when the OP is a teen trying to get advice on the internet, when they should be going to parents who could then get them to see a mental health provider.

 

[Lee1]

When I was young I preferred to speak to strangers I’d never see again about personal problems. I think it’s a choice which suits quite a few people actually.

I didn’t want my parents to know I had problems, I feared telling them things like that and it may have been because once you’ve told them suddenly you’ve lost control of the situation, they take over, cajole you into following their advice and instructions etc etc. That’s one aspect. Another might be sheer embarrassment, or loss of face. A parent may hold you in high esteem and you feel you risk that by imparting intimate information about yourself.

All of which we can deem unwise but wisdom often comes with age.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

I didn’t want my parents to know I had problems, I feared telling them things like that and it may have been because once you’ve told them suddenly you’ve lost control of the situation, they take over, cajole you into following their advice and instructions etc etc. That’s one aspect. Another might be sheer embarrassment, or loss of face. A parent may hold you in high esteem and you feel you risk that by imparting intimate information about yourself.

Confession: I was the same way.

But, there’s also a lot of weirdos on the internet!

 

[therese1998]

Thanks to scientific progress and medical advances, we now know so much more about human psychology than our Church forebears did centuries ago

And yet, we are no happier…

Personally, I think the Church has become more compassionate towards sinners

Perhaps. Although I tend to think that society was just as “not compassionate” towards people who suffered from mental illness and, as the church pulls her members from society, so the members of the church became more compassionate as society became more compassionate. However, I would point out that the teachings of Jesus that we rely on have not changed but rather our perceptions and interpretations of how to apply them have changed. Jesus was perfectly compassionate toward all sinners (and I would say He is the only one who knows where the line between bad decisions and mental illness should be drawn). I also think that, should you search, you will find plenty of examples of individuals who have always been compassionate toward others.

We humans are all a rather judgmental lot,

Indeed. And we judge others even as we ask not to be judged. But socially, we are slow to change. Look at how long it’s taken to view more neutrally single mothers, divorcees, mental illness (as you mention), autism spectrum type behavior, alcoholism, etc. I guess we could say we are evolving to be more compassionate, but there is a cynical side to myself that does not feel that it is quite right…perhaps I view it more as a great grace from Him for purposes only He knows that we still manage to give ourselves credit for…

they’re usually not off the hook 100%. My two cents, God bless you.

Yes…in fact, I doubt many of us are “off the hook 100%”. The Lord is, after all, All Truth (as well as All Mercy, fortunately)

not all suicides are from desperate persons or who suffered a psychotic break.

Excellent point

to throw out the concept of sin altogether,

It is a great temptation…one much of the Western world has fallen to.

.

 

[therese1998]

That we have organic body and soul, no mind

Okay, maybe. But having studied cerebral neuroanatomy and physiology, it will take quite a bit more research to convince me of this concept.

abusive people, act this way, because they were abused, and are enacting on pain they have in their hearts… whether they know it or not.

100% true. But that does not mitigate the pain of their actions. The truth is that abuse is ubiquitous in this world, the statistics are horrifying and most people who work within the field quickly find themselves burned out by the horror of what happens, our relative inability to decrease it and the way the emotional damage has such a splatter pattern. Those who abuse have a higher instance of going on to BE abusers and while they need healing and love, so do those who are abused by them. It’s all horribly complex…as sin usually is.

According to the Church, the mind is part of the soul. Where that leaves us with mental illness is the same place that leaves us with physical illness. The effects of sin in the world affect both body and mind, which includes emotions, reason, and will.

This is the phrasing I feel comfortable with, as well. Not so much that you have a mind that disappears when your brain stops working and a soul that is “different from a mind”. Not explaining it well, but …

as across-the-board sinful when there’s so much more to it.

Those with mental health conditions may be more susceptible to scrupulosity…

random peeps on a forum!

And yet, here we all are…

the forum is a great resource for Catholics,

Yes. And I don’t perceive that CAF was set up to be the ONLY resource available to Catholics outside of harried and over-worked diocesan priests in a confessional. We all have access, unheard of access for all but a blink of time in human history, to the resources of our faith and to answers about that faith. I believe CAF serves a very important function, even for the “weighty” issues in its potential to provide peace, lessen anxiety and do the figurative “holding hands” when someone needs comfort/peace/pointed back to Christ

teen trying to get advice on the internet, when they should be going to parents who could then get them to see a mental health provider.

Parents should be monitoring their children’s internet use for one. For two, trips to the confessional ARE mentioned in most, if not all, of the posts I’ve read where it would be appropriate.

When I was young I preferred to speak to strangers I’d never see again about personal problems. I think it’s a choice which suits quite a few people actually.

Me too…thought it was just me

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Parents should be monitoring their children’s internet use for one. For two, trips to the confessional ARE mentioned in most, if not all, of the posts I’ve read where it would be appropriate.

Yeah, but CAF is pretty tame. They’re probably going to more than one site, where things aren’t so tame.
And yes, parental supervision is important, but kids slip the leash more easily than you think.
Have you forgotten your adolescence? I haven’t forgotten mine, and even very sheltered kiddos get exposed to stuff

 

[blackforest]

Okay, maybe. But having studied cerebral neuroanatomy and physiology, it will take quite a bit more research to convince me of this concept.

The latest issue of National Geographic (Jan 2019) features an article on the science of good and evil. Brain scans have found significant frontal lobe differences between the empaths and the sociopaths.

It leads me to wonder what brain scans of some of my favorite saints would have looked like. It also calls to question not whether or not free will exists, but what its role is when confronted with physiological obstacles.

Perhaps there’s a quiet, unsung sainthood that comes from making good choices against an obstinate brain.

Those with mental health conditions may be more susceptible to scrupulosity…

Indeed.

 

[meltzerboy2]

I may be wrong, but didn’t St. Augustine condemn not only the act of suicide but the person who commits suicide?

 

[DarkLight]

This makes me particularly anxious when the OP is a teen trying to get advice on the internet, when they should be going to parents who could then get them to see a mental health provider.

On one hand, yes. On the other hand…I can’t imagine me as a teen going to my parents to get to see a mental health provider would have improved anything at all. (And that’s from looking back as an adult, not just from a teen.) With teens and young adults, one must unfortunately understand that some parents aren’t terribly useful when it comes to mental health.

I recall one time my mother caught what she thought was me hurting myself - it just turned into a screaming session about how I was out of control and sinning against God and just needed to stop throwing tantrums. Unfortunately I have heard similar stories from others as well, of parents who think they can simply discipline mental health problems out of their children.

I know when I was young, the internet was a way out from a family that was not actually healthy or supportive. So I’m more sympathetic to young people seeking advice, because its often so hard if the parents aren’t taking it seriously, and children often don’t have any way to get help if the parents don’t want them to.

 

[Edmundus1581]

When I was young I preferred to speak to strangers I’d never see again about personal problems. I think it’s a choice which suits quite a few people actually.

I didn’t want my parents to know I had problems, I feared telling them things like that and it may have been because once you’ve told them suddenly you’ve lost control of the situation, they take over, cajole you into following their advice and instructions etc etc. That’s one aspect. Another might be sheer embarrassment, or loss of face. A parent may hold you in high esteem and you feel you risk that by imparting intimate information about yourself.

All of which we can deem unwise but wisdom often comes with age.

Yes. I know both your reasons for not talking about my problems with my mother very well (and my father was dead). It lasted from childhood through all my life.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

I may be wrong, but didn’t St. Augustine condemn not only the act of suicide but the person who commits suicide?

Definitely he condemned suicide.
I really don’t know about the other part—it’s been years since I read Augustine, so I don’t want to tell you wrong information.

 

[meltzerboy2]

An “obstinate brain” can certainly be a hindrance to making good choices. However, there is recent research (not all mainstream) involving the study of consciousness that reveals what psychologists have known for a very long time: namely, that there is a difference between the biological brain and the psychological mind, and that the brain does not control all our behavior. In fact, the mind may alter the functioning (and even the structure) of the brain to a degree. The process of neuroplasticity reveals this. Thus we are not completely at the mercy (or lack of mercy) of our brain since our mind also plays a role in our behavior. In turn, behavior itself–including unwilling, unmotivated behavior–can effect changes in both the mind and the brain, for which there is also psychological evidence.

 

[Lee1]

That would have been a very ignorant attitude of Saint Augustine if it was his opinion. I hope God forgave him for it.

Having said that I seem to recall that suicide in those days wasn’t exclusively committed by depressed people in mental turmoil who had lost their ability to reason logically. A person might do it in those days out of an erroneous sense of honour. If his opinion referred to that type of suicide then I would agree with the saint.

 

[therese1998]

Not sure where you’re going with this?..we should not have discussions with teens on CAF? Or we should tell them to go to confession? Currently, I perceive that we ARE telling them to go to confession, to talk with their parents, to talk with a priest. And we certainly aren’t encouraging going to “less tame” sites…in fact we warn against it. So…I think we’re doing pretty good

what its role is when confronted with physiological obstacles.

It’s fascinating, complicated and even a bit scary…how does one sustain frontal lobe damage, engage in some of the anti-social behaviors that that entails but still be following the teachings of Christ? It’s even more evidence of the inscrutability and love of God.

didn’t St. Augustine condemn not only the act of suicide but the person who commits suicide?

He may have. Even so, saints can be wrong; they are not infallible. He also was operating through the limited knowledge of the time.

some parents aren’t terribly useful when it comes to mental health.

Oh boy, that’s the truth!

its often so hard if the parents aren’t taking it seriously, and children often don’t have any way to get help if the parents don’t want them to.

Very true and a great point. Other than the right to life and to not be assaulted or seriously neglected, children have no rights outside of those their parents give them. Including mental health.

The process of neuroplasticity reveals this.

True. However, as someone who loves a person with autism, the constant stress of misinterpreting information through a brain that works differently makes good choices very difficult and the eventual “I can’t help it” overwhelmingly tempting. It’s very difficult for those of us with neuro-typical brains to understand/judge the behavior of those with atypical neuro-functioning…hence the tons of threads on CAF

That would have been a very ignorant attitude of Saint Augustine if it was his opinion. I hope God forgave him for it.

If he was operating under the knowledge readily available in his day, no forgiveness is needed. None of us know what we would do or not do in the absence of the almost infinite amount of knowledge we have at our fingertips in this day and age. I hope God will forgive us all for what we do in ignorance.